Why doesn't Ireland have conservatives?

Permabear · 08-09-2008 1:10am #1

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heyjude · 08-09-2008 1:40am

I think you really mean that there is no large right wing party, rather than conservative, as on many issues Fianna Fail are extremely conservative, they just aren't philosophically right wing on economic issues, they are just economically populist.

Many of the right wing economic policies of the past 10 years were driven by the PDs rather than FF. Fianna Fail just stands for whatever it takes to get re-elected. But on issues such as contraception, divorce and other moral or ethical issues, they would be by far the most conservative party,but if right wing economic policies gained majority support, Fianna Fail would soon become their biggest advocate.

And before someone says that FF are a conservative party and have been following a wholly right wing economic plan for the past twenty years, I would point out that a true right wing party would never have allowed the public sector to get so big and bloated.

As for referring to the 'liberalism of Fianna Fail' well I am amazed. Do you remember which partys' TDs objected when the prospect of gay marriage was mentioned ? Yes, the 'liberals' of Fianna Fail.

As for whether I'd want a conservative party in Ireland, I don't know, I can't see such a party ever emerging, as rightist policies that gain popularity are seized by FF and FG, who then gain power and revert to type and don't implement them. Irish politicians within the main two parties, in general seem to lack core beliefs and principles, which allows them to stand for everything and nothing and the fact that we keep re-electing them suggests we like our politics like that. A party that has core principles that are non-negotiable and who want to change things on a mega scale, would upset too many people and would never gain power.

Permabear · 08-09-2008 3:37am

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The Corinthian · 08-09-2008 10:45am

You really have to read up more on what conservatism really is (hint: it's in the name). Ireland has long had both conservative and liberal wings to her politics; it's just that they are a particularly Irish version of conservative and liberal and should not be confused with conservative and liberal ideologies elsewhere.

Irish conservatism has tended in the past to be socially and economically authoritarian - that is, socially favouring Roman Catholic morality and economically the State control that was the basis of much of Irish industry up until the late eighties / early nineties.

Of course, that is not really the case any more as things have moved on. State control of the economy and a return to De Valeran moral values would only be advocated by cranks. On which note...

Anyone who has a canary reading your list is wasting their time. Your wish list is little more than that as it really would not stand up to a hell of a lot of economic scrutiny. Cut tax in one place and you'll need to increase it elsewhere to make up the shortfall, and at the very least your list has not attempted to balance the books. As for leaving the EU, I still wonder at the sheer idiocy of some who suggest that it would result in our becoming the new Switzerland or Norway, without actually having much of a clue about how these countries work.

In short, there's little point in having a canary over something as amusing as your list.

nesf · 08-09-2008 10:59am

Eh, why on earth do you believe that?

O'Morris · 08-09-2008 12:09pm

So name a politician in the conservative wing of Fianna Fail or Fine Gael then.

humberklog · 08-09-2008 12:27pm

And be replaced with Depression? Isolation? Starvation?

daithicarr · 08-09-2008 12:51pm

thats a daft list, the social problems which would arise would be immense, it would create a massive imbalance in the standard of living and would only really benefit the mega wealthy and corporations. probably why no such party exists. sod all people would vote for that lunacy.

humberklog · 08-09-2008 1:05pm

Suggested name for this brave new world's brand of politics? A Utopian Idiocracy.

sink · 08-09-2008 1:35pm

I found many holes in your ideology but this is the main one. Do you realise the amount of social tension these reforms would create? The country would virtually explode with social unrest. There would be national strikes everywhere and more than likely rioting. The Irish economy would be crippled and we would all suffer financially.

I would consider myself fiscally conservative but above all else I am a realist. What you espouse to is delusional if you really think it will have a positive effect. Working people are a vital component of any economy and they really need to be looked after from a purely economical point of view as industrial action and labour disputes often cost industry more than any government tax.

daithicarr · 08-09-2008 2:03pm

the phasing out of old age pensions ? what do we do with all the starving homeless old people ?

the massive reduction in taxs would leave the government with no revenue for basic services needed for a state to function.

how do we afford things like police, prisons, roads, parks etc.

should it all be Privatized? you have to give the police your credit card number before they respond to a crime and then charge you on type of crime commited and number of perpetrators ?

how will any of this be a benefit to anyone but those already incredibly wealthy?

gaf1983 · 08-09-2008 2:06pm

Surely this is already in place? Although I do agree that it could be more efficient. How? I have no idea.

DadaKopf · 08-09-2008 2:13pm

Fine Gael is lumped in with the Christian Democrat bloc in Europe. That puts them in a 'conservative' mould in the context of continental politics. Opinions differ about FG's ideological dispositions, but typically they paternalistic, pro-law-and-order, economically liberal, pro-small state, are associated (though by no means exclusively) with large land-holders. This casts them as a conservative party inasmuch as you can actually compare Irish parties with those in Europe.

By comparison, FF is populist, meaning policies change to maximise the likelihood of holding onto power and political allegiance is focused on a prominent 'leader'. Ironic considering FG's dabblings with fascism in the 1930s (accounting in part for their paternalistic tendencies).

nesf · 08-09-2008 2:58pm

God damn blueshirts the lot of them!

Permabear · 08-09-2008 3:49pm

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Permabear · 08-09-2008 3:55pm

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Permabear · 08-09-2008 4:00pm

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nesf · 08-09-2008 4:04pm

Um, such an adjustment wouldn't happen quickly, or even for many many years depending on global market conditions, so what would you do in the mean time where services have been cut to pieces and you had massive unrest over the huge inequalities that would be present with your policies, in the short run?

This is before even considering what damage withdrawing from the Euro would do to our export markets considering how much we export to the Continent.

Permabear · 08-09-2008 4:14pm

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Permabear · 08-09-2008 4:31pm

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nesf · 08-09-2008 4:33pm

Eh, sure but when talking about policy you have to weigh up all the sides of it so you have to consider situations where a global downturn reduced the size of the global FDI pool for Ireland to draw on and not just discuss what you'd like to happen. You also have to factor in that a lot of other countries, with lower cost bases than ours, could compete on tax levels. You then have to look at whether you'll get a big enough increase in FDI to compensate for the much lower tax take etc.

Sure but what do you do with all those people you've just kicked off the Dole if there isn't enough work to employ all of them? Have them begging on the street with their families in tow? I personally view the whole welfare state thing as a necessary evil that needs to find a balance between helping the worst off and limiting the amount of free riders versus your view where we draw a hard line and expect people to somehow find work (and I assume housing since I imagine council estates would be gotten rid of too?).

What are these drawbacks that you're saying would be outweighed?

sink · 08-09-2008 4:34pm

Ever heard of structural unemployment?

The point is most adults will only look after themselves. The interests of overall society will take a back seat to individual special interest.

Government is required to build infrastructure as capital investments from private industry for long term projects with little or no direct benefit would be very thin on the ground. Areas which are vital to the future economic health of the nation such as transport, information & communications technology, education, science and research.

A good example of such an area would be education. Without government support many families from poorer background would not be able to afford a good education for their children all the way to third level. The result of which a large section of the population would be under preforming and impoverished hurting the overall economy which in turn will create massive social issues and negative effects will snowball. Private industry would not be willing to provide funds for such a massive undertaking without any clear direct benefit.

You can see this already taking place in areas of the US where less than one in ten go to third level education. Second order effects are rampant crime and social degradation. These areas are like economic black holes where they suck resources from the rest of the economy whilst contributing nothing.

Permabear · 08-09-2008 4:46pm

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daithicarr · 08-09-2008 4:46pm

privately run does not necessarily mean value for money. one good example is childcare in ireland, ireland has some of the most expensive childcare in Europe and its almost entierly private. childcare is a very important social service, children are needed as future workers, the more parents that can work the better for the economy, however its prohibitively expensive, because those that provide the service are able to charge a high price and make massive profits . its not Cost effective.

surely it would be better to find a balanced approach between public sector and private sector.

humberklog · 08-09-2008 4:50pm

[/LIST]Why college graduates? Wouldn't that be shedding all these high end jobs this newly formed Idiocracy would somehow create? And any college graduate? I can see them doing cart wheels from Nigeria to Somalia in jubilation. Perhaps part of our economy could be in assisting the internet service providers to these countries? As there's gonna be an even bigger boom in dodgy-web-degrees.
Who will run this glorious hands across africa immigration device as we've reduced our civil service? Private immigration company? Could be a few jobs for the newly immigrated boys there. Lord knows they're qualified enough. But luckily the natives won't be able to kick up too much as for one; they won't be represented by unions, won't be able to halt themselves being under cut and won't be able to afford the dosh for the bus fare to make in to protest.
As for an end to state controlled education probably just as well do that as our education will be rendered insignificant. A third from TCD(with expectations of reasonable wage) is no match for a 2/1 from the university of Mombaso on-line.

nesf · 08-09-2008 4:54pm

There isn't an infinite pool of FDI to draw from. There is a point where cutting rates will decrease tax take simply because the increase in FDI investment won't compensate for the loss from existing FDI. Also, there's a trade off, we don't need to have an incredibly low corporation tax rate to attract business we just need one of the lowest corporation tax rates. More than cutting our rate in half when we're already one of the lowest mightn't be the best option. Just a thought.

With your tax cuts you won't be able to pay for welfare, eduction etc until there's been a large increase in employment to compensate from it. Honestly, I don't see the reason for getting rid of welfare if you're suggesting huge tax cuts, the tax cuts themselves should encourage a lot of people off welfare, reducing the draw on it. You have to find money to pay for all the services while the labour market adjusts though, which could involve running really big deficits which could be problematic if there's any delay in the pick up in employment (which could happen). Labour markets aren't like currency markets, they don't adjust suddenly to changing conditions and they tend to be a lot more "sticky".

Permabear · 08-09-2008 5:00pm

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Permabear · 08-09-2008 5:07pm

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Permabear · 08-09-2008 5:20pm

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Iwasfrozen · 08-09-2008 5:24pm

I must admit, I am beging to lean towards your views

but what about trade ?
How do you see leaving the eu as benifical to our economy ?
Personally leaving the eu is the only point I disagree with.

Permabear · 08-09-2008 5:27pm

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Why doesn't Ireland have conservatives?

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