Circus Protesters

Whispered

whitser wrote: »

i didnt say they're not killed but as long as its done quickly and painlessly its not cruel. pounds put down dogs every day,are they cruel?
im not even going to try and condone straying them or cutting off ears etc..thats cruelty.

The pounds and what happens to the animals in them is cruelty, yes. I can see that there is no other option a lot of the time, but you cannot compare a pound, which is taking in unwanted dogs, trying to rehome them and if failing, putting them to sleep, with a man who breeds dogs knowing that 4 out of 5 (what is the ratio?) will have to be put to sleep. The pound is cleaning up someone elses mess, the breeder who kills the dogs who don't make the grade are clearing up a mess that they should not make in the first place. Can you see why people would have moral issues with this?

stevoman wrote: »

but its also the norm in the horse racing industry to put down horses if they are injured. its also the norm in agriculture to kill off calves if they are of no use to dairy or beef. some calves can be bought in the mart for anything up to €10 and nobody will even buy them. yes all of this is cruel but to find solutions things have to be approached in a reasonable and understanding manner instead of stating here say that some greyhound men may do, tar everyone else with the same brush and then call for it to be banned. its no wonder with the "ban it" attidudes that so many people have, others will protest for it not to be banned and the arguement becomes black and white, wehre it should be on the grey areas that people should be disscussing and meeting halfway.

I also think the farming industry is disgusting TBH so you're preaching to the converted. But I agree that the more people pushing for or against a ban on circuses, farming, racing etc the bigger the divide becomes. However, sad as it makes me, it is the norm for greyhound men to treat their dogs like this, I grew up with it. At one stage my father had 18 unwanted hounds! The people who did not treat their dogs like this, did not bat an eyelid at people who did. So it must be the norm. That is what I have seen anyway. Look at the statistics of how many racing hounds vanish every year. There are huge numbers who loose a race and are simply never heard of again. Where do they go? Normally?

stevoman wrote: »

but this is the issue that pricesly must be tackled instead of calling for complete bans. if this issue was tackled and regulated thourghaly then there would be no protests (although we all know somebody would have something to complain about), but all sides would have come together to make an effort to improve things.

Fully agree, starting with better government legislation. And proper punishments for people who are caught breaking the law.

whitser

Glowing wrote: »

The Irish can hardly regulate their own hospitals! I hold no hope whatsoever for the greyhound industry.

No Whitser I agree with you there generally. But considering how few greyhounds are owned as domestic pets, you'd be safe in assuming that 99.9% of greyhound litters are produced to make money for syndicates or whatever....

most litters are bred because a breeder wants to improve his stock. then there'll be surplus pups left over for sale. of course there is money to be made but if your rearing and looking after your dogs right it'll be eaten up in costs. the vast majority of grey hound men make very little money at what they do, its purely a sport to them a lifestyle. like every scene/sport that involves animals there's people who do things right and those who dont.
this is all nothing to do with elephants though, unless we start racing them.

whitser

helena.ryan wrote: »

The pounds and what happens to the animals in them is cruelty, yes. I can see that there is no other option a lot of the time, but you cannot compare a pound, which is taking in unwanted dogs, trying to rehome them and if failing, putting them to sleep, with a man who breeds dogs knowing that 4 out of 5 (what is the ratio?) will have to be put to sleep. The pound is cleaning up someone elses mess, the breeder who kills the dogs who don't make the grade are clearing up a mess that they should not make in the first place. Can you see why people would have moral issues with this?

I also think the farming industry is disgusting TBH so you're preaching to the converted. But I agree that the more people pushing for or against a ban on circuses, farming, racing etc the bigger the divide becomes. However, sad as it makes me, it is the norm for greyhound men to treat their dogs like this, I grew up with it. At one stage my father had 18 unwanted hounds! The people who did not treat their dogs like this, did not bat an eyelid at people who did. So it must be the norm. That is what I have seen anyway. Look at the statistics of how many racing hounds vanish every year. There are huge numbers who loose a race and are simply never heard of again. Where do they go? Normally?

Fully agree, starting with better government legislation. And proper punishments for people who are caught breaking the law.

we're on totally different planets so. i dont think its cruel to kill/put down an animal once its humane. if the greyhound men didnt put down the unwanted dogs the pounds would have to do it,same difference. theres not enough homes as it is for unwanted greyhounds,what would it be like if none were put down?

AngelicRaindrop

stevoman wrote: »

but its also the norm in the horse racing industry to put down horses if they are injured. its also the norm in agriculture to kill off calves if they are of no use to dairy or beef. some calves can be bought in the mart for anything up to €10 and nobody will even buy them. yes all of this is cruel but to find solutions things have to be approached in a reasonable and understanding manner instead of stating here say that some greyhound men may do, tar everyone else with the same brush and then call for it to be banned. its no wonder with the "ban it" attidudes that so many people have, others will protest for it not to be banned and the arguement becomes black and white, wehre it should be on the grey areas that people should be disscussing and meeting halfway.

sorry here now but you make it sound like if a horse gets a scratch racing its put down... Horses are completely different to cats or dogs in their veterinary needs. for the most part if a horse is put down its because theres no way its going to come sound again.

horses cant really go on 3 legs! they cant give a fracture time to heal properly! no matter how badly broken a leg is or a dislocated hip etc. a horse will always have to put some pressure on it to walk and get around.

Im not a fan of horse racing, but go take a tour around coolmore stud, talk about state of the art!

i know most horses dont make the grade, but those what we call OTTB or off track thoroughbreds are reschooled and make excellent riding horse! look one of pippa funnels best event horses was an OTTB sold on because he was so laid back he didnt care about going fast enough to win

yes some are put down, you cant help that, there will always be some horses that are used for meat but the vast majority go to good knowledgable homes. and have great success in their new careers.

Glowing

See my sig! Don't talk to me about elephants either!!

stevoman

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

sorry here now but you make it sound like if a horse gets a scratch racing its put down... Horses are completely different to cats or dogs in their veterinary needs. for the most part if a horse is put down its because theres no way its going to come sound again.

instead of hijacking the thread try reading back through my other posts.

first of all how did i say if a horse gets as much as a scratch they are put down.

second of all the whole point i am trying to make is that there is no sense in going around trying to ban circuses, greyhound racing, horse racing, etc. the point im tying to make that there is room for improvment in everyone of these things and banning out right banning is not the answer.

Honey-ec

Just to get slightly back on-top, Mary Chipperfield was convicted of cruelty to animals a few years back. If one of the biggest circus families in the country are treating their animals in this manner, I really don't place any great faith in the ability of circuses to self-regulate.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/plight-of-the-animals-with-the-tentup-lifestyle-417155.html

EGAR

I've got two OTTB's here, both were destined for dogmeat. And there is nothing wrong with both of them. Ever since I took the first one in, I have been bombarded with offers to take in another one and another one. So don't you tell me they *don't make the grade*, they are being disposed of just like GH's.

TB industry is just as despicable as the GH industry and both get vast sums of money from the Irish government, whereas those who are left to pick up the pieces after them are left with a pittance to be shared at the end of the year (if you are lucky!).

boomerang

From www.limerickanimalwelfare.com

"Thousands of Irish greyhounds are destroyed each year. Bord na gCon (The Irish Greyhound Board) has admitted that 8,000 dogs die each year due to "natural wastage" i.e. injuries and diseases. This figure does not include the initial cull of young dogs that are not registered. Greyhounds are a very healthy breed and would normally live to be at least 14 years old. In 2006, 4,481 litters of greyhound pups were registered in Ireland. If we estimate six to seven pups per litter we get a figure of 31,367 pups. Only 23,700 of these pups were registered to race. These figures suggest that 7,667 pups never made it to the racing track. This figure is on the conservative side as it is calculated on seven pups per litter.The average greyhound litter is seven to ten pups. The issue of young greyhounds that do not make it to the tracks is a huge area of concern. Hundreds of pups are too slow to grade, some don't chase, other get injured and never make it to the first trials. In addition, at least 8,000 adult greyhounds leave racing and "retire" each year. When we add the unaccounted for puppies to the adult "retired" dogs, we get a figure of approximately 16,000 greyhounds that are surplus to the industry's requirements each year."

16,000 dogs each year ...

whitser

if someone is caught, throw the book at them. it'll soon stop. there's a right and wrong way to do everything.
as far as circus go, i was brought as a kid and i've brought mine and will in the future. i'd rather the zoo to see exotic animals but the little snots love the candy floss, what can you do! only problem i have is the price if everything,but i'd say their food bill is quite high.

Glowing

What are OOTB's and TB's?

Whispered

whitser wrote: »

we're on totally different planets so. i dont think its cruel to kill/put down an animal once its humane. if the greyhound men didnt put down the unwanted dogs the pounds would have to do it,same difference. theres not enough homes as it is for unwanted greyhounds,what would it be like if none were put down?

Well on my planet then the moral and sensible thing to do would be to limit the amount of hounds who are bred, have each litter registered and have the owners answerable to what happens to each individual in that litter. It's a case of responsible ownership. If your dog is good enough to be bred from, and I mean from a good line, not winning one or two races, then you wont have much problem shifting the pups, it's the fools who have one good dog out of a litter and who goes on to breed this dog that is causing the problem.

Honey-ec

whitser wrote: »

the little snots love the candy floss, what can you do!

Bring them to a non-animal circus???

whitser

boomerang wrote: »

From www.limerickanimalwelfare.com

"Thousands of Irish greyhounds are destroyed each year. Bord na gCon (The Irish Greyhound Board) has admitted that 8,000 dogs die each year due to "natural wastage" i.e. injuries and diseases. This figure does not include the initial cull of young dogs that are not registered. Greyhounds are a very healthy breed and would normally live to be at least 14 years old. In 2006, 4,481 litters of greyhound pups were registered in Ireland. If we estimate six to seven pups per litter we get a figure of 31,367 pups. Only 23,700 of these pups were registered to race. These figures suggest that 7,667 pups never made it to the racing track. This figure is on the conservative side as it is calculated on seven pups per litter.The average greyhound litter is seven to ten pups. The issue of young greyhounds that do not make it to the tracks is a huge area of concern. Hundreds of pups are too slow to grade, some don't chase, other get injured and never make it to the first trials. In addition, at least 8,000 adult greyhounds leave racing and "retire" each year. When we add the unaccounted for puppies to the adult "retired" dogs, we get a figure of approximately 16,000 greyhounds that are surplus to the industry's requirements each year."

16,000 dogs each year ...

its alot of dogs. how many do the pound put down? will we ban keeping dogs as pets because some people drop them at a pound when they dont want them? if the greyhound men didnt put the dogs down the pound would have to, so no difference.

whitser

Honey-ec wrote: »

Bring them to a non-animal circus???

why? i dont have a problem with the circus. as long as the animals are well looked after, and im sure they are. will we ban exotic pets?

Honey-ec

whitser wrote: »

its alot of dogs. how many do the pound put down? will we ban keeping dogs as pets because some people drop them at a pound when they dont want them? if the greyhound men didnt put the dogs down the pound would have to, so no difference.

Whitser, I'm beginning to think you're being deliberately obtuse here. The reason that the pounds destroy so many dogs is not as a result of people keeping them as pets, it's because of irresponsible breeding and the innate reluctance of Irish people to spay and neuter.

If people would just adopt a bit of cop on about breeding in general than the issue of dog over-population - both in Greyhound racing and in "civilian" life - could finally be addressed.

Glowing

I just don't think people should be breeding animals when they don't have the resources to look after them, regardless of their purpose. There's something inherintly wrong with an industry when it's deemed okay to breed dogs when there's a good chance a majority of them won't see their second birthday. Beautiful, healthy pups ... such a shame.

That volume of dogs shouldn't be bred in the first place.

boomerang

EGAR wrote: »

TB industry is just as despicable as the GH industry and both get vast sums of money from the Irish government, whereas those who are left to pick up the pieces after them are left with a pittance to be shared at the end of the year (if you are lucky!).

Yup, a shocking 30% of the Minister for Sport's budget goes to supporting the Irish horse racing and greyhound racing industries... Why? Because these two industries bring in MILLIONS for the Irish Exchequer.

30 per cent... Just think of it. When most towns don't have any decent public sports facilities! Where would we be without the GAA and other organisations/clubs that do their own fundraising, and the the Lotto funds?

Honey-ec

whitser wrote: »

why? i dont have a problem with the circus. as long as the animals are well looked after, and im sure they are. will we ban exotic pets?

And how are you going to check that they're well looked after? I'm sure most of the punters going to Chipperfield's circus thought the animals were being well looked after too.

whitser

helena.ryan wrote: »

Well on my planet then the moral and sensible thing to do would be to limit the amount of hounds who are bred, have each litter registered and have the owners answerable to what happens to each individual in that litter. It's a case of responsible ownership. If your dog is good enough to be bred from, and I mean from a good line, not winning one or two races, then you wont have much problem shifting the pups, it's the fools who have one good dog out of a litter and who goes on to breed this dog that is causing the problem.

i agree with some of what you've said. and i've said from the start there can be middle ground. im not involved in greyhound racing by the way, so its hard for me to speak competently on their behalf. but sometimes dogs will need to be put down and as long as its humane its better then straying them or leaving them to a pound where the outcome is the same...dead dog.

Whispered

whitser wrote: »

its alot of dogs. how many do the pound put down? will we ban keeping dogs as pets because some people drop them at a pound when they dont want them? if the greyhound men didnt put the dogs down the pound would have to, so no difference.

Not really, as I said the pound is clearing up someone elses mess. A mess that people are fighting to clear up without the killing of animals, How many dog owners here have had their license checked recently? It's just not enforced. If people were held responsible for their animals things would be a lot better. Whether they are pets or racing dogs. The racing people are breeding dogs knowing that they will be putting a lot of them to sleep. Can you see why people would have a moral issue with this?

cowzerp

whitser wrote: »

elephants have been domesticated as well,they are used in india as work animals. in fact they been used all over asia for thousands of years as work animals.

Do you know how they make them useable, they tie them up and break there spirit over a couple of days till they lose the will to fight-i seen a program on discovery and it was awful, scaring it with fire and beating it and generally just terrifying it.

what about cats, do you think doing tricks is not forced on them, dogs love this, cats only do it because they have to, usually due to fear..

whitser

Honey-ec wrote: »

And how are you going to check that they're well looked after? I'm sure most of the punters going to Chipperfield's circus thought the animals were being well looked after too.

thats true. but with such a public debate going on and the fact that the "eye" is on them im sure they wouldnt to anything to lepordise things.

whitser

helena.ryan wrote: »

Not really, as I said the pound is clearing up someone elses mess. A mess that people are fighting to clear up without the killing of animals, How many dog owners here have had their license checked recently? It's just not enforced. If people were held responsible for their animals things would be a lot better. Whether they are pets or racing dogs. The racing people are breeding dogs knowing that they will be putting a lot of them to sleep. Can you see why people would have a moral issue with this?

yes i can. and im not saying the greyhound ind hasnt got some questions to answer or some issues that it cant help to fix. but ban it,doent wash with me. everyone involved in racing can do more to clean up the industry, but just saying ban it doesnt wash with me.

whitser

boomerang wrote: »

Yup, a shocking 30% of the Minister for Sport's budget goes to supporting the Irish horse racing and greyhound racing industries... Why? Because these two industries bring in MILLIONS for the Irish Exchequer.

30 per cent... Just think of it. When most towns don't have any decent public sports facilities! Where would we be without the GAA and other organisations/clubs that do their own fundraising, and the the Lotto funds?

they also create jobs and bring money to local communities, very important especislly now.

Glowing

cowzerp wrote: »

Do you know how they make them useable, they tie them up and break there spirit over a couple of days till they lose the will to fight-i seen a program on discovery and it was awful, scaring it with fire and beating it and generally just terrifying it.

Yep, I saw something like this in Thailand, it would sicken you. They're confined in a cage with no room to move. They're abused and starved for days until they relent .... its their screams that will stick with me. Sick to the core.

*EVERY* elephant that is trained over there for logging, or tourist camps, or whatever, goes through the same ritual.

Whispered

whitser wrote: »

yes i can. and im not saying the greyhound ind hasnt got some questions to answer or some issues that it cant help to fix. but ban it,doent wash with me. everyone involved in racing can do more to clean up the industry, but just saying ban it doesnt wash with me.

I agree, working dogs are happier working. Plus greys are one of the few purebred dogs who don't suffer from diseases passed through generations of inbreeding.

whitser

Glowing wrote: »

Yep, I saw something like this in Thailand, it would sicken you. They're confined in a cage with no room to move. They're abused and starved for days until they relent .... its their screams that will stick with me. Sick to the core.

*EVERY* elephant that is trained over there for logging, or tourist camps, or whatever, goes through the same ritual.

how do fossetts train their elephants? i dont know.

Glowing

whitser wrote: »

how do fossetts train their elephants? i dont know.

Dunno. But I won't be paying them a penny regardless.

beth-lou

whitser wrote: »

why? i dont have a problem with the circus. as long as the animals are well looked after, and im sure they are. will we ban exotic pets?

But an elephant can never be "well" looked after when it is essentially living in a 20 foot container with little or no exercise. The same is true of the big cats and most other animals kept to "perform" for your pleasure. It is cruel. No two ways about it. Regardless of Greyhound racing or any other comparisons you wish to make. The keeping of large animals in 20 foot containers, constantly on the move and in the glare of spotlights, and subjected to intensive training usually using force to control them buy dominance, is cruel.
If you are ok with that, then by all means attend the circus.
Personally I couldn't be party to that cruelty and I have explained as such to my daughter who is more than happy not to go to the circus for the very same reason.

It's your choice. Go by all means if your wish. But please, don't try to justify their existence in their 20 foot containers as anything other than cruel.