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BHP V's Torque
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Well ...but torque does matter.
example: Saab's 2.3 turbo petrols. They have a relatively modest bhp of just over 200 ...yet they out-accelerate a 911 from 80 km/h to 120 km/h.
Yes, the 911 has the higher top speed and possibly (don't know) a better 0- 100 time too. But the mid range acceleration is what counts in real life, on actual roads with tractors and speed limits.
So don't dismiss torque completely.
I wouldn't dismiss over what rev range good torque is available or how flat a torque curve is because this what makes an engine more flexible and driveable. But the actual torque at the crankshaft, on it's own, is meaningless. Engine torque ends up going through a gearbox and depending on the gearing, the torque is reduced before going to the wheels. Even at the wheel, the size of the tyre affects how the torque ends up being converted to the force that drives the car on. Then it's f=ma and all that. Torque at the crankshaft on its own is meaningless. Engine torque combined with gearing ratio and tyre size is relevant as you need all three to figure out what force there is to accelarate the car. Nobody says "well my car has bigger wheels than yours so I must have better midrange acceleration". Funnily enough Massey Fergusons have torquey engines and big wheels I guess they've great real life performance
. Actually I've just realised that size of wheel would have an inversely proprtional effect on acceleration but still the point is still there that you need to combine all three before you can feel its effect on a car. Same point really as that BHP already encompasses torque because engine power is a function of both torque and engine speed.
Anyway, the Saab v Porche... Watched the video... JC claims the Saab out accelerates a porche 911 turbo 40mph - 70mph. No mention of what inappropriate gear they were stuck in or claims about the virtues of torquey engines. It can't be the torque that's giving the Saab the alleged better performance cause it actually has less! You're not trolling by any chance peasant?
From Parkers....
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/Detail.aspx?deriv=34406
Porche 911 turbo
Engine Size 3600 cc
Cylinders6
0-60 mph3.8 s
Power Output473 bhp
Valves24
Torque680 Nm 502 lb-ft
Top Speed193 mph
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/Detail.aspx?deriv=40117
Saab 9-5 2.3 turbo
Engine Size2290 cc
Cylinders4
0-60 mph6.5 s
Power Output256 bhp
Valves16
Torque350 Nm 258 lb-ft
Top Speed155 mph0 -
I wouldn't dismiss over what rev range good torque is available or how flat a torque curve is because this what makes an engine more flexible and driveable. But the actual torque at the crankshaft, on it's own, is meaningless. Engine torque ends up going through a gearbox and depending on the gearing, the torque is reduced before going to the wheels. Even at the wheel, the size of the tyre affects how the torque ends up being converted to the force that drives the car on. Then it's f=ma and all that. Torque at the crankshaft on its own is meaningless. Engine torque combined with gearing ratio and tyre size is relevant as you need all three to figure out what force there is to accelarate the car. Nobody says "well my car has bigger wheels than yours so I must have better midrange acceleration". Funnily enough Massey Fergusons have torquey engines and big wheels I guess they've great real life performance. Actually I've just realised that size of wheel would have an inversely proprtional effect on acceleration but still the point is still there that you need to combine all three before you can feel its effect on a car. Same point really as that BHP already encompasses torque because engine power is a function of both torque and engine speed.
Anyway, the Saab v Porche... Watched the video... JC claims the Saab out accelerates a porche 911 turbo 40mph - 70mph. No mention of what inappropriate gear they were stuck in or claims about the virtues of torquey engines. It can't be the torque that's giving the Saab the alleged better performance cause it actually has less! You're not trolling by any chance peasant?
From Parkers....
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/Detail.aspx?deriv=34406
Porche 911 turbo
Engine Size 3600 cc
Cylinders6
0-60 mph3.8 s
Power Output473 bhp
Valves24
Torque680 Nm 502 lb-ft
Top Speed193 mph
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/Detail.aspx?deriv=40117
Saab 9-5 2.3 turbo
Engine Size2290 cc
Cylinders4
0-60 mph6.5 s
Power Output256 bhp
Valves16
Torque350 Nm 258 lb-ft
Top Speed155 mph
Good post, but I doubt he was talking about the 911 turbo.0 -
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All I'm saying is not to dismiss torque outright as meaningless. Given the choice between two cars with equal-ish bhp, I personally would prefer the one with the higher torque figure as it is more likely to give you power where you can comfortably use it on the road.
that's all ...not interested in pissing contests
This makes sense and I agree with what you're saying saying here. I note that you're choosing between cars of equal-ish bhp so in effect you're looking at the BHP first before going on to consider the torque. Where you have equally powerful engines, the one that produces the most torque will tend have that torque lower down in the rev range thus making the car more comfortable to drive - like a diesel!Sorry, guys but torque really does matter in everyday driving. A big flat torque curve means the car responds at all speeds in all gears. A peaky curve means more work for the driver to keep it on the boil. And, no, in real life you can't drive a type-r around in first gear all the time.
I agree with what you're saying here about the big flat torque curve, how it helps the car respond, keeping a peeky one on the boil, driving around everywhere in first gear, etc, but when I've being saying that torque is meaningless I mean the actual figure for the maximum torque as in the OP is meaningless on its own. The torque curve IS meaningful for assessing what the drivabillity of the engine could be like, for all the reasons you mention. 0 -
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A 300bhp diesel WRX! How about sounding like a huge bag of spanners, creating huge clouds of heavy particulates, making huge amounts of school children asthmatic, and all the while getting 40 miles per gallon?Matt Simis wrote: »Why? It would be far from the most powerful diesel engine on the market, whats it going to bring?
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HashSlinging wrote: »Rumor has it subaru are talking about bringing out a 300hp version of their horizontally-opposed diesel engine, to slot into the WRX. I think that would end all arguments.
The audi le mans winning TDI car didnt end any arguments,it only started more,the scooby turf burner wil do the same
You can say what you like but BHP is figure that matters,if you drive a petrol engine like it should be driven not changing gears at 4000rpm then it will feel(read actually be faster) than any diesel of equivelant mass,colour,shape,lenght,height..... the red line,rev limiter is there for a reason its a target
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No, you were talking about engines.HashSlinging wrote: »WOW The V12 TDi then LOL Probably going into the R8??!! I'm talking about a rally bred hatchback, not a diesel supercar..HashSlinging wrote: »Nice use of lettering points. I bet your a real MS word king in the office.
Lol, oh touché sir, with a dry cool wit like that you could be an action hero.
Maybe try considering where you are going with a point before hammering away on that chew proof keyboard.
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