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Going pro

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    #92
    dav nagle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Spot on there about the list of parents signatures, trackmixstudio.

    You are on dodgy ground doing stuff for kids without having someone with some sort of teaching/child care qualification involved, or having it officially sanctioned in some way. The potential to have the arse sued off you is huge.

    Ignoring any "he touched me" accusations, just from an insurance perspective it is just not simply a matter of organising a camp and away you go. If one of the kids injures themselves or has a turn or whatever, and someone decides to sue, the consequences for you could be pretty disastrous.

    I don't know where you held your previous rock camps, Damh, but if it was in your studio, from a health and safety perspective if one of them fell climbing the ladder and decided to take you to court, you would more than likely not have a leg to stand on.


    Lads you must understand!! I held my 2 rock camps in an insured premises. A community sports centre in Cabra to be exact and it was as successful as any camp going. I had to pay insurance, do you guys think I don't know this?? What camps have you guys run?

    Secondly, I have a huge reputation as a teacher in the Dublin 7 and I am in constant contact every day of the week with the children's parents so get off your high horses would ya!. I have worked closely with my community for the last 6 years and everyone around here knows me as a great guitar teacher for kids, teenagers and adults. I teach from my family's home in a safe secure warm family environment where there is always parents and adults around. Thats how I rock n roll!

    I am not simply moving to a premises and taking on something that I haven't tried and tested. You guys are being over cautious scare monger's. I don't mean to sound disrespectful but I am telling you how it is. I have been doing this for 6 years, thats 6. Since 2002 to be exact.

    If a a child hurts themselves my insurance company will look after the situation, I am not going to cut corners and get sued. The likely hood of me getting sued for any mis conduct with children is extremely low. The kids and parents are both happy. Parents can sit in with the kids if they please.

    I find the idea of 'I must have a certificate' a load of bull**** to be frank and I mean that. A child could sue a qualified teacher just as quick and get away with it. The children that would come to my camp for the most part would be my regular clients and students so what is the big deal??


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    #93
    dav nagle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    trackmixstudio wrote: »
    I don't see how a short lease is favourable if you are going to redesign and treat the interior. Your average industrial/office premises will not be a turnkey studio. Also if you start mentioning short leases to letting agents they will have nothing to do with you. You will come across as someone who is taking a "punt". Your average lease would be 5-25 years, but don't forget the lease is an asset that you can sell (hopefully) if you decide to pack it in later.


    Completely untrue. I was just at a meeting with a landlord and he would rather give a 3 month lease and get his money then a 3 year lease and spend the rest of his time trying to get his money back.

    A list of parents' signatures is worth nothing in the real world. You will have to get certified training and will be subject to background checks.

    No they are my regular clients again untrue.

    You don't seem to grasp my point re splitting the bills.
    If you are sharing a house with someone you split the bills.
    If you are in a business partnership, the business pays the bills, not the partners.

    Thats fair enough, its only an idea as of yet..

    I don't want to come across as "the glass is half empty" but that is the way you have to think before starting a business. It is very easy to focus on the positives and neglect the negatives.

    Yeah but you see I have taught about much of the negatives and that is the problem. If everyone out there taught that way businesses wouldn't start!

    I am not saying I will succeed and everything will be rosey in the garden but I am saying that thinking too much in the negative has an effect that will stop you trying to open a business. Sure there is probably thousands of negatives if you want to talk about them and a thousand positives but at some stage you have to try surely?


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    #94
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    dav nagle wrote: »
    but at some stage you have to try surely?

    That's what every failure and success has in common...


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    #95
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    This is not just scaremongering. This is very real. I have worked in schools as a teaching sub. I have family members working in schools, some on a management level. I also have family in the legal profession. These concerns exist.

    If you saw the s**t that schools had to do to cover their arses from an insurance perspective. 3rd party insurance on the premises is only the tip of the iceberg.

    Is there someone on site to administer first aid? Supervising kids for a whole day, what do you need to know? Have they allergies, medical conditions etc.? What constitutes responsible behaviour from a legal perspective in a given situation? One of them needs to be taken to hospital, are the rest of them left unsupervised? The list goes on.

    It is naive to think that this **** doesn't need to be considered.

    The reality is that you would probably get away with it. Nothing would even happen. But if it did, a list of parents signatures wouldn't be worth jack ****.


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    #96
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    dav nagle wrote: »
    I find the idea of 'I must have a certificate' a load of bull**** to be frank and I mean that. A child could sue a qualified teacher just as quick and get away with it. The children that would come to my camp for the most part would be my regular clients and students so what is the big deal??

    Man that is scary attitude. I teach guitar aswell and im not saying you take it lightly, But saying something is a load of bull when your talking about life, not career damaging prospects that are VERY real is not something to treat in this way.

    The guys are pointing in the biggest problem with things like this and surely thats what you want?

    I dont think they were on high horses, Lets be honest about it, you can be the most amazing guitar teacher in the world and all it takes is for one thing to be SAID...not to have happened and everything is in the pisser.

    I would "Give a bull**** about some certificate".


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    #97
    dav nagle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    sei046 wrote: »
    Man that is scary attitude. I teach guitar aswell and im not saying you take it lightly, But saying something is a load of bull when your talking about life, not career damaging prospects that are VERY real is not something to treat in this way.

    The guys are pointing in the biggest problem with things like this and surely thats what you want?

    I dont think they were on high horses, Lets be honest about it, you can be the most amazing guitar teacher in the world and all it takes is for one thing to be SAID...not to have happened and everything is in the pisser.

    I would "Give a bull**** about some certificate".

    I take your points, I am reading everything here very clearly. I understand what you are saying. I appreciate to an extent what people are saying here, some points are very valid. I could do a medical course for example.

    On the other hand, the world is not going to end in a 3/4 hour a day summer-camp is it? The likely hood of supervised children dropping dead or getting suddenly ill in those 3 hours is very small. God sake, look at the big picture. Summer camps are meant to be fun musical experiences full of learning and education within the realms of music, not disastrous law suits and violent injury claims.

    If you would give a bull**** about a certificate thats fine but in 6 years I have never been asked to produce so much as my grades, why? because people don't care about that, if their child is happy they are happy, thats what parents want, their children to be happy, it is simple, ask any parent. I have more experience teaching than most people on boards so I do know what I am on about lads, funny how so many people are posting about me being careful in an area that I have been in way longer than them? Or have I? Has someone here been teaching the guitar full time for the last 6 years every waking day?


    Ok so lets throw it out there, who here has had an incident where they have been threatened to be sued or where a child has become seriously ill in their careers???????????????????????


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    #98
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    Horsebox, fer fecks sake build the feckin studio will ya!? You might get Award Nominated then!!


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    #99
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    Dav im completely behind you and have never disagreed with you on anything before.

    That said,

    Your looking at it wrong.
    To say thats not what summer camps is about is fairly naive. Of course its not but that cant be a reason to push it to the side! Your playing a dangerous game by saying "What are the chances" and " Parents dont care ". All it takes is for one kid to make some comment about ANYTHING and all hell will break loose.

    Six years is all well and good but that means nothing if the **** hits the fan for some reason. Do you think the parents will care? If their kid hurts themselves for ANY reason or gets some notion in their head you are completely up **** creek.

    Im only saying this because I know a bit about it, I wouldnt be posting if I wasnt interested in your expansion and seeing how it goes for you.

    Your basing your opinions on "sure what are the chances" and "its grand sure i know the parents". Thats dodgy dodgy business.


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    #100
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    dav nagle wrote: »
    funny how so many people are posting about me being careful in an area that I have been in way longer than them?

    Dav no one is trying to tell you how to show kids a d major, we were seeing how you were fixed for the legal and liability end of things so that if something happened all your posts and your great six years teaching doesn't get destroyed at a later stage by something you should have put more thought into and not have taken such a lax view on.


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    #101
    dav nagle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    sei046 wrote: »
    Dav im completely behind you and have never disagreed with you on anything before.

    That said,

    Your looking at it wrong.
    To say thats not what summer camps is about is fairly naive. Of course its not but that cant be a reason to push it to the side! Your playing a dangerous game by saying "What are the chances" and " Parents dont care ". All it takes is for one kid to make some comment about ANYTHING and all hell will break loose.

    Six years is all well and good but that means nothing if the **** hits the fan for some reason. Do you think the parents will care? If their kid hurts themselves for ANY reason or gets some notion in their head you are completely up **** creek.

    Im only saying this because I know a bit about it, I wouldnt be posting if I wasnt interested in your expansion and seeing how it goes for you.

    Your basing your opinions on "sure what are the chances" and "its grand sure i know the parents". Thats dodgy dodgy business.


    If I am insured for injury then what is the problem???? I never said I wouldn't be insured? Where is this coming from???


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    #102
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    sei046 wrote: »
    Dav im completely behind you and have never disagreed with you on anything before.

    That said,

    Your looking at it wrong.
    To say thats not what summer camps is about is fairly naive. Of course its not but that cant be a reason to push it to the side! Your playing a dangerous game by saying "What are the chances" and " Parents dont care ". All it takes is for one kid to make some comment about ANYTHING and all hell will break loose.

    Six years is all well and good but that means nothing if the **** hits the fan for some reason. Do you think the parents will care? If their kid hurts themselves for ANY reason or gets some notion in their head you are completely up **** creek.

    Im only saying this because I know a bit about it, I wouldnt be posting if I wasnt interested in your expansion and seeing how it goes for you.

    Your basing your opinions on "sure what are the chances" and "its grand sure i know the parents". Thats dodgy dodgy business.

    What if the kid comes home into Slipknot ...or even the Blizzards, who'll get the blame then? You, that's who ...


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    #103
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    Its not "coming" from anywhere dav. Im not trying to get at you. We were just being the "what if" guys. I thought thats what you were posting for?


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    #104
    dav nagle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    What if the kid comes home into Slipknot ...or even the Blizzards, who'll get the blame then? You, that's who ...

    Ha ha if the kids come home into either band I will be happy because as long as the kids are happy campers the parents are happy campers too:)


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    #105
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    dav nagle wrote: »
    Ok so lets throw it out there, who here has had an incident where they have been threatened to be sued or where a child has become seriously ill in their careers???????????????????????

    Funny you ask.

    About three years ago I was coaching at a tennis camp for kids. On the first day, in the first hour, a kid directly disobeyed me and ran into the net, fell over it and broker her arm so that it was at right angles (she fainted immediately when she saw it).

    Everyone saw what happened, knew the kid was a bit of an idiot, and she went to the hospital, and we never saw her again.
    3 months later I got a letter from a legal firm on behalf of her parents stating they were intending to sue me for neglect.

    Over 15 witnesses had to give statements about what happened. Detailed from every angle imaginable, and the parents dropped their case.
    It was a lot of hassle. They did full background checks on my coaching credentials ( and I mean really detailed checks), and all sorts of other things.
    I was covered only because I was formally qualified as a tennis coach. Certificates might mean nothing in the real world, but when legal arseholes, insurance arseholes and deluded nasty parents get involved, they're absolutely essential.


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    #106
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    jtsuited wrote: »

    About three years ago I was coaching at a tennis camp for kids. On the first day, in the first hour, a kid directly disobeyed me and ran into the net, fell over it and broker her arm so that it was at right angles (she fainted immediately when she saw it).

    You know your too long in the studio when you nearly cry with laughter at that paragraph.

    But on a more serious note, Thats exactly what im talking about.


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    #107
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    sei046 wrote: »
    You know your too long in the studio when you nearly cry with laughter at that paragraph.

    But on a more serious note, Thats exactly what im talking about.

    i know I'm laughing now at it. But it's probably the first time I've had even a smirk about the whole ordeal.

    Although I did phrase it in quite a whimsical way.


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    #108
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    Im sure if her parents had actually SEEN the kid run into the net and fall over leaving her leg at a ninety degree angle they would have laughed.


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    #109
    dav nagle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    sei046 wrote: »
    Its not "coming" from anywhere dav. Im not trying to get at you. We were just being the "what if" guys. I thought thats what you were posting for?

    The post was originally posted for feedback in relation to starting my own company and the feedback has been exceptional, just look at the hits and replies, its been excellent. I can explain every little detail within each section of my business but thats not my intention.

    I am in no way suggesting I know everything, I don't. I am with you guys all the way in fact, you are reminding me about the pit falls and I really do appreciate that. Where I got annoyed was when the 'if you are running a camp from your home studio without proper insurance bit started'. This is bull**** speculation on the posters behalf when I have already stated I ran the camp with full insurance on the kids from a community centre.

    The other half of my anger comes when the certificate thing gets thrown out there where in the real world it doesn't ever come up. It may be nice to have but it never comes up in the real world. Thats in 6 years of my experience in teaching. I know you are not telling me how to teach the 'd' chord to a child, I know that.

    The children suing you thing is also a hypothetical scenario that is unlikely to happen, people are posting the matter as if it is very likely to happen. It is not very likely.

    Finally. I am not taking things lightly in any way and I can see how if you read my posts it may seem like a brush off but it's not, I take offense to anyone telling me I am taking things lightly. I have played by the rules, paid for my insurance in the past and the worst thing to ever happen during one of my camps was when a child got stung by a bee, I rang her mother, she came and collected her for the day and it was sorted.


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    #110
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    Dav thats dead on. Now did you read Jts post?


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    #111
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    dav nagle wrote: »

    Finally. I am not taking things lightly in any way and I can see how if you read my posts it may seem like a brush off but it's not, I take offense to anyone telling me I am taking things lightly. I have played by the rules, paid for my insurance in the past and the worst thing to ever happen during one of my camps was when a child got stung by a bee, I rang her mother, she came and collected her for the day and it was sorted.

    Dav, if you're insured and all that, don't worry about all that craic.

    Tell you what though, when the accident happened at my camp I had been coaching for a long time. I had never seen anything like it in all my years. I had never heard of anything like it.

    So make sure you are properly insured all the time. Because long term, it's far less hassle.


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    #112
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    sei046 wrote: »
    Im sure if her parents had actually SEEN the kid run into the net and fall over leaving her leg at a ninety degree angle they would have laughed.
    it was her arm ya eejit.
    Sei please do not operate heavy machinery tonight.


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    #113
    dav nagle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    sei046 wrote: »
    Dav thats dead on. Now did you read Jts post?

    Yes I did and in all fairness man you do have a point within the sports realm. There is a difference between sports and extra curricular activity and sitting on a seat playing a wooden instrument, a huge difference. The chances of injury within sport is greatly multiplied due to the fact that in this case

    1. the kids are running around the place
    2. the kids are swinging bats (which is clearly dangerous)

    Now if my students were running around there would be an immediate eyeball and shout to STOP.

    If they were swinging guitars around I would have them sent home if it didn't cease immediately.


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    #114
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    Ok! dodgy.


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    #115
    dav nagle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    jtsuited wrote: »
    Dav, if you're insured and all that, don't worry about all that craic.

    Tell you what though, when the accident happened at my camp I had been coaching for a long time. I had never seen anything like it in all my years. I had never heard of anything like it.

    So make sure you are properly insured all the time. Because long term, it's far less hassle.

    Thats dead on, you see I am only wound up because of that post earlier on about insurance like I was some kind of dodgy knacker.


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    #116
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    sei046 wrote: »
    Sei that was bloody funny!!!

    i've just woken up housemates laughing at that!!!:pac::pac:


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    #117
    dav nagle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    sei046 wrote: »
    Ok! dodgy.

    Man what the **** are you on? :) You crazy cat


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    #118
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    I had to remove it. I think i may have overstepped a boundary there! I had to though


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    #119
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    dav nagle wrote: »
    dodgy knacker.

    You can get insured against those ...


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    #120
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    Jt man your really going to have to stop quoting me!


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    #121
    dav nagle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    sei046 wrote: »
    I had to remove it. I think i may have overstepped a boundary there! I had to though

    Lol! You better not be running anything tonight especially not a summer camp because you are turning into a dark sicko!!!!!! lol:D:D Thats was sick man...


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