is wow in trouble?

KilOit

I wouldn't say because i don't like pvp in wow that im unskilled i consider myself a pretty good player and sunwell ain't no walk in the park,

I played planetside for 2+ years and was on the Werner scoreboard im all for compedative pvp play but WoW doesn't do it for me for a pvp game

Ivan

My god, where did this generation of PvP elitists come from? They completely snuck up on me.

Just to clarify, arena elitists look down on PvP elitists the way PvP'ers look down on PvE'ers.

I dont really want to get sucked into yet another circular argument, so I'll say this, all aspects of WoW requires skill. If you cant see that; then you are doing it wrong.

Nehaxak

Well what I'm trying to get at then is that if blizzard alienate the mass amount of players who get their enjoyment purely from pvp, then they will go elsewhere. In turn effecting wow itself and with WaR there now and only improving, those players that leave will be hard pushed to come back at all even if Blizzard do eventually cop on.

BTW I do know raiding and all requires skill, I didn't mean it like that and I suppose I generalised too much in that regards

Scram

Well for my 2 cents! i Dont think WoW is going to be at the same level as it was ever. Atm we got WAr and Aoc and while there not everyones "cup of tea" if your sick of WoW (like i am), and lot of gamers are im sure) your going to take a stand or pay for 2 MMO's like a retard.

Atm im trying War, in my Eyes Aoc Failed me and i really really hate to have to try Wow again with WOTLK because i know its the same endless grind as TBC. I dont want to raid ever again after TBC and since PVP is all there is unless WOTLK can offer a lot more PVP wise than War then im not going back.

Heck games like COD4 and Crysis are more entertaining than the ****e WoW Battlegrounds over and over and over again.

Ivan

Calling people who pay for 2 MMOs retards is akin to people who dont play MMOs calling us retards for paying a sub.

I have 4 WoW subs, and 1 War sub running atm.

Where do I sign-up for the special gaming Olympics?

On a more serious note, please refrain from blanketly insulting a large portion of MMO players.

Dont even get me started about the usual "WoW Battlegrounds are lame" tripe. If it's not for you, it's not for you. But enough with the belittling already.

Woden

Scram wrote: »

i really really hate to have to try Wow again with WOTLK

sorry I must have missed the part where someone is twisting your arm forcing you to play something you don't like.

Magill

lol at the wow hating, its the same old usual crap that comes with a new mmo, ppl get into it for a few months, "OMG AoC PVP owns the **** out of WOW LOlz noobs" or "WoW is easy lol, pve is for nerds". At the end of the day the reason WoW has so many subscribers is because there is nothing out there that can compete with it, for over 10 million ppl it is the MMO to play, its the top DAWG, its the bollox. Stats don't lie, and while some say WoW's pvp is boring, you only have to look at the amount of ppl that do arena's or grind on BG's, YOU might prefer the PvP in WAR, it doesnt mean everyone else has too. Wotlk looks good to me, alot of changes and some new PVP aspects with lake wintersomething, world pvp FTW, and the grind, you know.... some ppl like the grinding in wow, the rewarding feeling of dinging 60/70 or soon to be 80 is nice, getting that new epix from rep grinding.... it all feels good when you get it.

And Nehaxak, go raid BT and sunwell for the first with T5 gear, come back then and say it requires no skill, it obviously doesnt require the same kinds of skill that fps's or even PVP requires, but it really isn't easy, esspecially when your a progressive guild and not just farming.

Anti

I dunno, i certainly find pve more skillfull full then pvp for the classes i play lock/hunter. Hunter is kinda easymode as a simple macro is all i have do do while keeping and aye on my threat, and trapping something occasionaly. The lock is a hell of alot harder, keeping up dots on multiple targets... Well its not hard i suppose, but its harder then the hunter. And yeah places like MH are stupidly easy as i just have to spam soc. But then again, ive never been in a arena team with a higher then 1800 rating. But have been in a few decent pvp guilds. I have to agree that Bg's are unbelievebly boring. And world pvp on my relam is a few undead rogues ganking stupid lowbies at westfall/goldshire. Was quite entertaining watching 30+ lvl <10's trying to take down a mage last night. Poor Rp'ers were probably getting some kick out of it. I just sat back and laughed and 2 shotted the mage. Then got ganked myself. oh well.

Nehaxak

Yeah fine, PVE raiding requires some sort of skill I know that. Gave raiding up when TBC hit as I saw no point to it anymore and lost interest in it all probably due to being older than a lot of people in the game itself. Also work 8am to 7pm, have 2 kids and a life inbetween all of that so don't have the time anymore to put into raids either.

So for me anyway the skill and fun is in the pvp, even if it is repetitive in the BG's.

I'm playing my two accounts together at the same time for my Arena team, every intention of losing but have won a couple of games with just my shaman on follow and playing the hunter, so I am enjoying the bit of challenge in trying to beat 2 players at the same time but still find Arena an absolute bore. If you care to take a look at both the Us and EU official forums, you'll find I'm not alone in that opinion. So many people have complained about how crap Arena is that it's even thankfully forced their devs to reconsider the whole thing and to concentrate more on the BG's.

Blizzard are also trying to implement a participation part of the BG pvp, so rewards, honour, marks and so on are only given on a participation basis - to further stop the leeching from happening, regardless of being afk reported or not.

I understand what you're saying Magill about PVE but honestly, from what I see and experienced these days, PVE raiding, instances/heroics et all are a bore and on my server at least (and on Kul Tiras, and on SilverMoon before that) - PVE is mostly full of whining kids who get a boner from some epic drop or think their life means something special if they're in an arena team with anything above 1500 rating - it's the kiddie part of wow that I don't like nor never did.

At least in the BG or world pvp I can /spit on people after I kill them so I can get a kick out of the hate tells that usually come afterwards

Anyway...considering I couldn't even logon to WaR due to it's stupid queues at times at the weekend and cannot even think about logging into it during the week due to the rediculous queues - I'll still be playing Wow either way.
Also spent all of yesterday evening in wow in the BG's with my Hunter to get the honour for the pvp neck piece, dunno what it is but out of all my 70's I enjoy playing the hunter the most these days.

Nehaxak

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rAtlp2dDPU

I rest my case in regards Arena, honestly, this just sums them up for me...

pedro ferio-vti

Nerdrage at it's finest there

PS lol at the I got Cycloned 3 times bit. It's not overpowered though

Funky

raided with the guy in the middle there when wow first came out

Magill

lol, that is pretty funny, i agree with you that the arena system is boring, i never agrued that, but you have to agree that at the very top end of arena PVP in wow are probably the most skilled PVP'ers in any MMO out there, even if most of them are kids, which brings me to another point, most gamers in any game are kids, it doesnt matter if your playing cs/css/wow/war/EVE/wc3/fifa, you will have a majority of kids. As far as im concerned mmo's are only ever fun if your playing with friends, ppl you actually like, playing by urself WILL be boring.

TheDoc

i find wow arena pvp like warcraft 3

Theres too much flavour of the month.

Its not down to skill, for the people winning, its the strength of their characters and the gear they have
It was like warcraft 3 when a new strat emerged that was "uber" and everyone would jump on that race.

But in wow obviously you cant jsut change.

But the skill for me, is in the counter strats.

For me personally, im always getting raped by rogues in BG, contstantly stunned and cant do anything, the skill for me, is that i can now counter rogues and demolish them.

I have to agree, wow is a very grinding game, pve end game raids are so so so long, BG's can get very repetitive and have no team work what so ever, in rair instances you get team work that is class.

But you have to remember these fall down to the people you play with, when i play instances/BG/Arena with my guildies, its great fun, and doesnt feel a grind, but when your playing with the kiddies ( who i always hate) its ****.

I did a kara run last night, ive been on wow for years, but did my first kara run last night, generally i get chars to 70 and leave them start new ones.

But i took the effort to go through kara, and had little kids rolling on priest items for " offspec" as they call, when i need for my main, and then was completely ****ed over, 5 hours of work and i got like a ****ing belt, its bollox...

Have to say might just completely stick in guild and not bother with pubs


I'm also pissed off and being constantly asked " how much + heal/ +dmg

As if this is the end all and be all, imo experience goes along way past your bonus stuff.

GO_Bear

Of course skill will shine through most of the time but , if it is close in terms of skill gear can decide it , that is what i did not like about WoW ( The PvP system included ) And this is not a rant on WoW , If it has such a vast player base it is doing several things right , but i was spoilt in terms of PvP as my first MMO was Dark Age of Camelot where the RvR system was unrivaled , and the gear problem was sorted by putting a hard cap on stats i.e +101 strenght was all you could get in the end , so every1 had capped stats . So daoc was a very skill based game ( Realm rank also affected but not all that much in my opinion)

TheDoc

I was never one for naming wow a skilled game..

I, more then most, have a slightly better insight into the pro gaming scene ( albeit a few years ago) and I remember being ringside during a match between SK and Pandemic...amongst alot of other matches. I was doing reports etc for the website, and was allowed gracefully to sit in with a good few team talks, seeing the prep etc.

The preperation for WoW arena is amazing , more then ive seen for alot of games, but it was not on tactics per say, it was about gear...

As i mentioned earlier there was always a flavour of the month, classes that together were "imba". This, and the hours that was spent by these guys researching gear, testing it etc was ridiculous.

I know for fact...I have an abundance of skill required to play games at a decent level. I've good micro, good hotkey allocations, pace, quick minded, communicative and fast reactions.

For any other game i nthe world, this is a bonus and lets me comepte at a decent level of enjoyment, however with wow, it counts really for nothing, because i'm not arsed sitting 5 hours through a raid...

The reason i mention this, is not so much a moan, i applaud those who have the patience for such, and im currently trying to research items etc and time to get them.

But I remember being present in a press conference, for journalists only, when wow was first announced, and one of the comments that stays with me to this day is " World of Warcraft will be a whole new mmorpg experience, in the way that, previous mmo's require long grinding and alot of time, but with WoW, the casual gamer can jump in any time, for any length of time, and experience the content hardcore gamers will experience, as the game adapts to your gameplay type"

That was official , from one of the dev team.

I have to say im a big fan of wow and i do find it immensly enjoyable, and i hope to god i find the time to be able to do a full kara run etc etc.

But I still think theres things they announced years ago, that they didnt deliver on.

And pvp is just a letdown imo... i played 15 AV games yesterday, I won 2 of them, I'm reliant on 15+ other players....who all want to go offensive, and constanyl leaving me on defence

Nehaxak

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

And pvp is just a letdown imo... i played 15 AV games yesterday, I won 2 of them, I'm reliant on 15+ other players....who all want to go offensive, and constanyl leaving me on defence

Wild guess here but I'm thinking you play Horde ?

I know what you're saying though and I agree. What I've been doing recently though is taking SH gy straight away then recalling with trinket to defend (usually on my own). Helps enough to send a fair few Alliance rushers back to SP gy, thus killing a lot of stupid Horde rushers and pushing a lot of them back in to defence. Other games I've just used the trinket continually to recall, kill a few and at least slow them down in the rush to kill Drek.
Keeps me interested anyway as otherwise AV can be a complete bore but still the most profitable in regards honour points earned.

Scram

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

I was never one for naming wow a skilled game..

I, more then most, have a slightly better insight into the pro gaming scene ( albeit a few years ago) and I remember being ringside during a match between SK and Pandemic...amongst alot of other matches. I was doing reports etc for the website, and was allowed gracefully to sit in with a good few team talks, seeing the prep etc.

The preperation for WoW arena is amazing , more then ive seen for alot of games, but it was not on tactics per say, it was about gear...

As i mentioned earlier there was always a flavour of the month, classes that together were "imba". This, and the hours that was spent by these guys researching gear, testing it etc was ridiculous.

I know for fact...I have an abundance of skill required to play games at a decent level. I've good micro, good hotkey allocations, pace, quick minded, communicative and fast reactions.

For any other game i nthe world, this is a bonus and lets me comepte at a decent level of enjoyment, however with wow, it counts really for nothing, because i'm not arsed sitting 5 hours through a raid...

The reason i mention this, is not so much a moan, i applaud those who have the patience for such, and im currently trying to research items etc and time to get them.

But I remember being present in a press conference, for journalists only, when wow was first announced, and one of the comments that stays with me to this day is " World of Warcraft will be a whole new mmorpg experience, in the way that, previous mmo's require long grinding and alot of time, but with WoW, the casual gamer can jump in any time, for any length of time, and experience the content hardcore gamers will experience, as the game adapts to your gameplay type"

That was official , from one of the dev team.

I have to say im a big fan of wow and i do find it immensly enjoyable, and i hope to god i find the time to be able to do a full kara run etc etc.

But I still think theres things they announced years ago, that they didnt deliver on.

And pvp is just a letdown imo... i played 15 AV games yesterday, I won 2 of them, I'm reliant on 15+ other players....who all want to go offensive, and constanyl leaving me on defence

I Think i cud safely say that up until a few months i was a WoW addict i.e playing all day most days. Things in my real life were not going so well but it wasnt until at least a year ago i said to myself during a raid into SSC "This aint for me anymore". I love my guild i still do im still in contact with them and there were great times in wow SSC killing Lady Vash and First Guild Kill of that TK end boss.

I remember watching the tactical videos for those 2 boses over and over im time for the raid. But you get to the point when you see that you can never get to the "End" of Wow. Blizzard keep adding new gear with stats etc and PVP becomes kinda boring. I wish there were new Battlegrounds ive played the 4 of them to death really and with all 7 of my Toons.

I do kinda miss Wow i loved the gnomes and dwarfs especially the Dwarf jokes they always made me laugh. As i write this im missing it even more but theres nothing new atm to go back to. I can see my self going back for WOTLK but the thoughts of level 80 and another PVE/PVP grind really turn my stomach. I mean its like "wait ive done this twice before now?" (WoW,WoW TBC) thats what makes me think there must be something better to do than this again?

Kiith

I'll go back, play the expansion to 80 (although probably with only 1 toon), realise i despise the end game, and quit again.

TheDoc

Youd think, that with a game, that has thousands of real life people, on one server, they could construct something epic.

Something that requires team play, and epic, like conquering a zone or something, not this dismal effort they made by grinding stuff to aid a war and ****.

That just adds to the grind.

Why is pvp confined to the BG etc? Why isnt there like zones we can desimate, and done proper, previous attempts have been feeble.

But as i said its so people orientated thats half the problem.

Today i wanted to do a kara run, and im jsut speccing up my shadow priest, so currently has +600 dmg. And 4 groups i asked, i was asked " how much +dmg?" and when i replied they said " no thanks too low"

like wtf, i get to 70, and now ive to continue more rind to get exceptance, so the next party that asked, i lied saying +900, got accepted, and didnt put a foot wrong and had a gr8 time.

Its just annoying

Scram

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

Youd think, that with a game, that has thousands of real life people, on one server, they could construct something epic.

Something that requires team play, and epic, like conquering a zone or something, not this dismal effort they made by grinding stuff to aid a war and ****.

That just adds to the grind.

Why is pvp confined to the BG etc? Why isnt there like zones we can desimate, and done proper, previous attempts have been feeble.

But as i said its so people orientated thats half the problem.

Today i wanted to do a kara run, and im jsut speccing up my shadow priest, so currently has +600 dmg. And 4 groups i asked, i was asked " how much +dmg?" and when i replied they said " no thanks too low"

like wtf, i get to 70, and now ive to continue more rind to get exceptance, so the next party that asked, i lied saying +900, got accepted, and didnt put a foot wrong and had a gr8 time.

Its just annoying

Aye honesty gets you nowhere lol. Yeah that sucks, thats part of WoW i hate the "elitist" part that other folks look down on you most of the time. Having a nice guild is really the only way to get Kara done really or a nice friendly group but in Wow thats rare.

Yeah Wows PVP really is lacking i know it was just an addon to the game but it still no excuse in waht 3-4 years. Ive no idea what WOTLK will bring thats new i lost interest in keeping up with its features but as said above, "ill probably go back level one toon and realise i still hate the game and quit again lol".

I dont know what it is but i just seem to have no interest in MMO's anymore espcially WoW. I think of all the things i could have done in the time i played WoW and i really get pissed off at how let myself slide into "****e" kinda the reason i now hate wow.

ive tried WAR and it seems very easy to get into good fun and gives everyone a shot at playing plus you feel like your actually contributing to the game with zones etc.

Forgive my whining lol

Anti

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

Youd think, that with a game, that has thousands of real life people, on one server, they could construct something epic.

Something that requires team play, and epic, like conquering a zone or something, not this dismal effort they made by grinding stuff to aid a war and ****.

That just adds to the grind.

Why is pvp confined to the BG etc? Why isnt there like zones we can desimate, and done proper, previous attempts have been feeble.

But as i said its so people orientated thats half the problem.

Today i wanted to do a kara run, and im jsut speccing up my shadow priest, so currently has +600 dmg. And 4 groups i asked, i was asked " how much +dmg?" and when i replied they said " no thanks too low"

like wtf, i get to 70, and now ive to continue more rind to get exceptance, so the next party that asked, i lied saying +900, got accepted, and didnt put a foot wrong and had a gr8 time.

Its just annoying

I fell your pain about the kara part, but i wouldnt take any caster with under +800 damage, or any healer under +1500. And its not eliteism, its the wanting to get that place done asap. I would rather have over geared people in there then people who just dinged and still in greens/blues. But to be honest if we already have a high dps/heal group we would often take a crap geared person or even a lvl 69 alt there so they can get some lucky drops, last weak for example a 69 rogue got t4 hand/head, spiteblade, gloves, belt, worgen neck in 1 3 hour run.

I suppose if you joined a guild DoC you would get into there much easier. Pug's can be nutorious for being snobbish.

TheDoc

yeah, i jut dont like the way its so elitist... its nearly a " omfgzzz lol you still on blues lolzers noob no chance"

When in fact ive probably been playing wow longer then any of those blokes, ive got a ridic amount of experience, but emphasis on gear, its the most annoying part of wow.

But it has opened up a new avenue for me lately, a part of the game i havnt ever experienced.

Before id ding 70 and make a new char straight away. But with this elitism im receiving, im determined to get stuff. So like i said i got the satin battlegear, and im grinding BG HK like theres no tomorrow, now sporting a nice wand and belt, and staff should be mine by weekend.

But its something i thought id dread, but its pretty ok to do My one and only kara run, was ok, was fun... I wasnt interested in the gear, i wanted the experience of doing one, however, when you see the lovely drops it made me more interested.

I know spend alot of time going spare in college researching gear, which is good, which is a waste to get etc. I've decided on just grabbing a few bits and bobs and then mass grind hk for new expo.

But for me, this new opening off grinding , grind of gear, is much more enjoyable then grinding of xp, possibly because its at the expense of kids who are no doubt breaking their keyboards

I'm the kinda wow player that splits into so many options and thoughts so often, for exmaple i went from holy to shadow, and I am loving it.

Although WoW does become boring after time, I guess for someone like me, the littlest of thing, can open a completely new avenue.... and create endless more enjoyment.

I think thats where WAR is going to fail a little bit, from my short experience playing it. I fear that, once the pvp gets a bit repetitive, then, the fun will go.

Who remembers playing counter strike, de_dust2 for the 50 millionth time, it gets a bit ...boring and im sure that will happen with WAR

WoW however has its vast pve aspect, and although pvp is limited to BG and Arena, it still provides enough scope for enjoyment.

Now, im praying to be struck with a severe illness, not painful, but just gives me a week or two of college and work, so i have the time to grind the **** outa things to get " savage epix" :P

I'm turning elitist hour by hour

Anti

Aye pvp gear is a nice easy way to get some gear for raiding, heck that staff(merci/veng) will last you through Kara and ZA easilly, ive even seen a few mages using it in BT. But the spellblade/offhand is a much better choice.

Some of the badge gear is very nice too, equivilent to T5 or better in some cases. I would say find a nice raiding guild, but as shadow be expected to be asked to respec to holy alot. If asked say you have absolutly 0 healing gear.

Kiith

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

I think thats where WAR is going to fail a little bit, from my short experience playing it. I fear that, once the pvp gets a bit repetitive, then, the fun will go.

Who remembers playing counter strike, de_dust2 for the 50 millionth time, it gets a bit ...boring and im sure that will happen with WAR

WoW however has its vast pve aspect, and although pvp is limited to BG and Arena, it still provides enough scope for enjoyment.

I honestly cant see how someone could say that grinding PvP would be more repetitive then grinding PvE. Playing against actual players is always more open then playing PvE. Everytime you do Kara, its the same. Everytime you fight a PvE enemy, its the same. Players are people. Whether stupid or smart, they will play differently.

Your also assuming that War will have the same (very limited) PvP options that WoW has. Which it wont. Ask any of the DAoC players, and they will tell you how much fun the RvR is. WoW's huge PvE aspect will be mirrored by War's RvR aspect. It all boils down to which you prefer though. I personally get bored of PvE very quickly, whereas a group of players doing RvR is far more enjoyable.

Also, waaay to many acronyms there. :pac:

Dr_Teeth

I can only play 2 maybe 3 weekday evenings per week, I'm in a decent guild but I am rarely online when they're doing instances. I don't have any items from 25 man content but my char is still very well equipped from badges, crafting, faction and honour items. I think WoW is easily the most casual-friendly MMO out there, I've managed to build this toon completely on my own with pick-up groups:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Outland&n=Doomgor

My major gripe with WoW is how they split the game between PVPers and PVEers. In the old days world PVP was a lot more fair and fun.. if you had roughly the same level of gear as the guy trying to gank you, it usually came down to skill.

Nowadays the guy who ganks me is always in full Resilience gear with PVP trinket, whilst I'm in "normal" gear. In this situation skill doesn't matter, I just get destroyed. They never should have brought in Resilience, or made the PVP gear so different. When I'm out questing, I get ganked by PVPers.. and when I go into an instance, we suffer because the warrior thinks he can tank in Gladiator items, or the Mages/Warlocks etc run out of mana in seconds because they have no regen.

I don't have a problem with people getting nice items from PVP. I don't mind if these items are more focused on PVP stats (more stam, more crit while sacrificing sustained DPS and regen) but it's gone way too far.. I think PVP needs to be re-balanced without Resilience and stuns in mind.

KilOit

Any serious guild wouldn't be asking you to spec holy if you were shadow, I raided all TBC as shadow and never asked to spec holy

TheDoc

My guild let me go shadow, they wouldnt dare ask

I'm a very firm believer in how powerful a shadow raiding spec priest is.

Vampiric embrace and touch is such an indespensible tool to keep people alive with both hp and mana, and any instacnes I do, i always get a mention from healers, about how much my play is aiding them in healing

DRakE

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

My guild let me go shadow, they wouldnt dare ask

I'm a very firm believer in how powerful a shadow raiding spec priest is.

Vampiric embrace and touch is such an indespensible tool to keep people alive with both hp and mana, and any instacnes I do, i always get a mention from healers, about how much my play is aiding them in healing

mana battery lols