Electrical Registered Employment Agreement the Truth at Last

thecribber

The real Agenda behind the R.E.A that is in Force in the Electrical Contracting Industry is at last becoming clear.

This is the way it works.
A large contracting company who was one of the minority who brought in the agreement in the first place succeeds in their tender for a large contract. They know that it is impossible to complete the contract while complying with the terms of the agreement. The solution is to sub-contract all the labour to other smaller companies thereby transerfering all responsibility for terms of the Registered Employment Agreement to the Sub Contractor.
As the contract proceeds the total exposure for not complying with the agreement is shifted to the sub-contractor. These sub-contractors most likely know little or nothing about the R.E.A and do not realiase the situation they are putting themselves in.

Then the body blow, the sub-contractors get inspected by EPACE or TEEU (same thing) and end up in the Labour Court. As all Electrical Contractors know, it is almost impossible to win in the Labour Court and the Union proceed make up a bill for back monies owed. What formula they use and how they arrive at a figure owed is an unknown science.

Then the master stroke, the Union write to the Large Contracting Company (I have a copy of a letter) and instruct them NOT to pay the sub-contractor any more moneys.

The sub-contractor is left with a large bill from the Labour Court and an unpaid balance from the Main Contractor.

The Union is left with a large amount of money for travel and pensions that the sub-contractors employees know nothing about.

The Main Contractor is left with a job finished for a fraction of what it would have cost him to supply the labour himself.

Two big Winners, One small Loser

I think the Electrical REA is about more than Electricians Wages.

I will UPDATE you as I receive further proof.

Would be interested to hear from any contractors who have been involved in a situation like described above

fishdog

It appears that what you are discribing is how a large electrical contractor might try to get a job done without paying the TEEU/EPACE rates.

I have seen another tecnique: Electricians will only be employed if they are "self employed". This means that the electrician sets himself up as a limited company. Each week a timesheet is submitted by him to the main electrical contractor and the electrician is paid the amount that he has negotiated. This amount may be well below the TEEU/EPACE rates. However if the person in question is thought to be talented and productive enough he may well be paid more than the normal rates. The decision of how much to pay into a pension is up to the electrician. This person is very easy to let go at very short notice and not on a "first in last out basis". The TEEU is not able to do anything about this arrangement.

Dotsie~tmp

EPACE got €5000 quid out of us for not paying my own pension contributions to a pension I want nothing to do with and never will. I might get it back when I'm 60 but i doubt it. BTW your right the Labour Court (scum in suits) is impossible to win in.

fishdog

EPACE got €5000 quid out of us for not paying my own pension contributions to a pension

Unbelievable! I never knew that they could do that! Who is supposed to gain from this (apart from the penion scheme company)?? One of the reasons people want to be self employed is so that they can make their own decisions about what they do with their money.

EPACE has a lot to answer for.

thecribber

EPACE is in fact a private limited company. Their true title is PENSIONS and CONDITIONS LIMITED.
PENSIONS AND CONDITIONS ELECTRICAL LIMITED30301724-26 City Quay Dublin 2
(copy paste from Companys Office website)
They are funded by a 38cent levey from both employer and employee paid to them by CWPS. See this page on their website to confirm this information. http://www.cwps.ie/join/costs.htm

So the more people they force to pay into the bad value pension scheme, the more money they get themselves. And wait till you hear this, One of their directors is "Owen Wills" General Seceraty of TEEU

Its not to difficult to figure out why they want to force guys to pay into the pension

Karlos_Sparky

I have to laugh at all of this shi** ...... I'm a second year only getting into this game and when the poop hit the fan the union called a meeting in liberty hall for all it's members in the dublin/kildare/meath region ..... about 60/70 lads turned up (including me). The union were giving it socks, plenty of hard words and promises.

Then they were asked "who is responsible for the payment of correct wages & benefits, the contractor or the sub-contractor ?" and at the same time the two men at the table said yes & no !!!!

Is there any direction, point or will in this battle ?? It's all a mess ..

thecribber

In 2005 a delegation from AECI addressed a JOINT OIREACTAS COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS. The purpose of this Presentation was convince the government to give Statutory Powers to the Private Limited Company EPACE. Epace is an organisation which AECI has now left. Outlined below are some of the statements made by AECI in that presentation.

As can be seen below AECI clearly admitted that they were not substantially representative of employers as required by Section 27 (3) Part C of the 1946 Industrial relations act which the Registered Employment Agreement is based. They also make a number of other statements in the presentation that clearly show that this REA is working against employment in the Industry. This is in breach of Section 27 (3) Pat D of the 1946 Industrial relations act which clearly states "that the agreement is not intended to restrict unduly employment generally or the employment of workers of a particular class, type or group"
It is unbelievable that an Employers Representative Association that had clearly identified that the REA was having a negative effect on the Industry are now Sitting on the Fence While others make a stand to change it.

The Following are some extracts from the submission

Full Report is available by following this link

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=BUJ20051012...age=1

THE FOLLOWING WERE IN ATTENDANCE FOR THE PRESENTATION

DEPUTY M. BRADY IN THE CHAIR.
Deputy J. Callanan, Deputy P. McHugh,
Deputy P. Hogan, Deputy M. J. Nolan,
Deputy B. Howlin, Deputy N. O’Keeffe,
Deputy K. Lynch, Senator T. Leyden.

Mr. Dermot McClannon, president of the Association of Electrical Contractors of Ireland
Mr. Gerry Goggin, honorary secretary of the Association of Electrical Contractors of Ireland
Mr. George Kennedy, executive secretary of the Association of Electrical Contractors of Ireland

______________________________________________________________________________

AECI ADMITTING THEY ARE NOT REPERESENTIVE IN 2005

Mr. Gerry Goggin:(AECI) As regards non-aligned contractors, there are in excess of 4,000 registered electrical contractors in the State, of whom almost 550 are members of trade associations such as the AECI and ECA. It is clear that approximately 3,500 electrical contractors are not represented by this system. That is a major part of the problem.
______________________________________________________________________________

MASSIVE PAY RISES BECAUSE OF ANOLOG SYSTEM

Mr. Gerry Goggin:(AECI) There has been an increase in the basic rate of pay of an electrician to the present day high of €19.72 per hour, plus the additional costs of employment to the employer. These rates of pay are being met by a compliant contractor as the base figure for the contractor’s hourly charge out rate. This leads to a necessary charge out rate of €40 per hour. This basic rate of pay has increased by 96% since 1 July 1997. National wage agreements in this period have afforded increases of 40%.
______________________________________________________________________________

ABUSE OF SUB CONTRACTOR SYSTEM

Mr. Gerry Goggin:(AECI) Awareness by construction and large industrial companies of the above practices allows them to play one contractor off against another to reduce overall costs. A number of significant electrical contractors employ non-compliant contractors on their projects. While being fully compliant themselves, they are under no obligation to be responsible for the non-compliance of those to whom they subcontract work. Non-aligned contractors can claim to be ignorant of Labour Court decisions and NJIC agreements, but ignorance of the law is no excuse for non-compliance.
______________________________________________________________________________

APPRENTICE RATIO

Mr. Goggin: (AECI) FÁS was of the opinion that the ratio of 2:1 was still in place and was surprised that this clause had been removed from the agreement. It does not believe a situation should prevail whereby there can be more apprentices than electricians in a company. However, based on the information available that is the situation.
______________________________________________________________________________

AECI LOOKING FOR A STATUTARY POWER FOR E-PACE AN ORGANISATION THEY HAVE NOW LEFT

Deputy Howlin: What type of statutory power would be given to E-PACE?

Mr. Goggin:(AECI) The statutory power required by E-PACE would be such as to allow it to enter a company and to verify from its books whether it was compliant in terms of rates, conditions and pensions and to refer any matters of non-compliance to the Labour Court for decision. Another issue worth examining is the Labour Court’s ability to handle such situations at this juncture.

Deputy Howlin: What is meant by that statement?

Mr. Goggin:(AECI) The view is that the Labour Court would not be capable of handling the workload required in terms of examining all the complaints referred to it.
______________________________________________________________________________

GOVERNMENT SEEING THAT REA IS AGAINST COMPETION LAWS

Deputy McHugh: I welcome the members of the delegation, particularly Ms Byrne. I now want to play devil’s advocate. On one reading of this presentation what the delegation wants is a totally protected industry with full collusion between all the players in it and the complete elimination of competition.

The delegation has mentioned that some people have to start up a business — the delegation admits they have to do this — with no business qualifications. However, that is the situation throughout the country in various areas of life and various professions. People with no formal qualifications often start up businesses which turn out to be very successful, despite their lack of qualifications.

It was mentioned that a local authority somewhere had accepted a tender which did not fit exactly into this little basket. However, it is quite common in different professions, including the profession represented here today, for contractors to quote different prices depending on the situation at the time. If a contractor has a certain number of employees and wishes to retain them and work is becoming scarce, the contractor may do the work at a lower rate and may be able to carry the loss without necessarily paying a lower rate to his or her employees. Is the delegation stating we should address this situation by creating an artificial system in which everybody would be equal, or is it suggesting all clients should contact the Association of Electrical Contractors of Ireland when they want an electrical contractor to do a job and that the association will provide the contractor and stipulate what the rates of pay should be? Is it suggested there should be total protection, total collusion and no competition? If that is what the delegation is stating, I cannot agree with it.
______________________________________________________________________________

AECI AND TEEU ADMITTING WE NEED A GRADING SYSTEM FOR ELECTRICIANS

Mr. McClannon: (AECI) There is no register of electricians, although I would like to see one introduced. I would also like electricians to be graded as A, B or C in terms of experience and qualifications. They should also carry their own insurance costs to make them more accountable. At present an electrician is not registered or responsible for any concerns caused to employers or clients. The employer carries the can for any costs or problems that arise.

Some years ago I discussed the register and grading system with a senior union executive who thought the ideas were worthwhile. When we discussed the matter in more depth, he wanted to grade a C electrician at the higher rate of pay and grade B and A upwards. I wanted the higher grade to go to the grade A electrician and grade down to C.

______________________________________________________________________________

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One has to wonder what State the Electrical Industry would be in to-day if the AECI had succeeded with Its attempt to give Statutory Powers to a Private Limited Company who’s role is to Police Employers in a Registered Employment Agreement that was set up by the Minority without the Input or Knowledge of the Majority. To make things worse this Private Limited Company is now 100% Controlled by a Union.

HERE IS THE CURRENT SITUATION IN ONE SENTENCE

90% of Irish Electrical Contractors are Legally bound by an agreement they know nothing about and have no input into which is aggressively enforced by a Private Limited Company controlled by a Union.

No wonder Electrical Contractors are jumping at the chance to be properly represented.

Related Link: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=BUJ20051012...age=1

Add Your Comments >>

Electricman

I can’t believe that our government would even consider giving Statutory Powers to a Private Limited Company.

Just think about it. What will be next?

Will Guinness get Stautory Powers lobby to make a law that every person in Ireland has to drink 10 pints a week.

Will Ryanair get Statutory Powers and make a law that we all have to push the plane to the runway to save fuel.

I have never heard of anything so stupid in my life.

As more information comes out about this mess in the electrical |Industry it becomes more and more clear that the big boys have been trying to put the small operators out of business instead of competing with them.

What has been described above would not even happen in a communist country.

Get Real big boys. Run your own business and leave the small man alone.
As JACK CHARLTON says in the song GO AND COMPETE

Keep up the good work NECI we are behind you all the way.