Princess and the frog...

F.A.

taconnol wrote: »

If you want to see this in action, go see the Duchess film. Shocking. And in the history of mankind, not that long ago.

Oh kids totally soak this stuff up. Go see a Warners Bros cartoon & they all have hidden messages & morals.

On a more blatant note, I remember when I was 7 my brother got an uber-cool Boys Handbook (blue of course) that showed him how to go camping, make a kite, little scientific experiements etc. I kept stealing it to read & he went crying to our parents. So to settle the issue, my parents got me the girl's version. It was pink. It had no mention of camping, kites or science. Instead it was full of exercises like stomach crunches and aerobics. Oh and a list of foods with their corresponding calories.

Needless to say, it gathered a lot of dust & I went back to stealing my brothers. BUT I was only 7!! Of course some of it went in. You can be intelligent as you like but when you're a kid, you just don't have the understanding or capacity to filter out the positive messages from the negative ones.

I am not Irish and only moved here a few years ago, so when I saw these books at Eason's, I was quite appalled. Interesting to hear they must have been around for quite some time. I know my mother had some books similar to that pink one you describe, but that was in the 50s...
Btw, I can fully sympathise with wanting the blue book instead. I was always more interested in my (male) cousin's little cowboy/red indian set with horses, carriages, casinoes etc. than in my doll house. My cousin asked my mother to get me a set too, but she openly refused to. Not for her daughter, oh no...

F.A.

Dragan wrote: »

If it was vice versa and your brother was taking your book it would lead to people questioning his sexuality.

Kind of crazy really.

Funny you should say that. I had a French teacher who was quite adamant that her 9-year old son should grow up outside any gender klischees. She proudly told us that she gave him a doll's pram for his 9th birthday. Before you wonder, no, he had not asked for one... I remember the whole class went silent and exchanged looks when she told us that. I still cringe. Talk about using your children to make a point.

WindSock

All I can say is that I am glad I had older brothers and their hand-me-downs. My sister is the oldest and we are like chalk and cheese.

paperclip2

Dragan wrote: »

How many of you Ladies watched the Disney films and other such movies when you were growing up? How many of you had dolls and such?

Now, how many of you are in the kitchen as oppossed to work?

Storm in tea cup.

To a point I would agree. But when I was a nipper there wasn't as much sexualised content on TV, in magazines, books etc. I think we were somewhat free-er to take our own meanings from the fairy stories and go for maybe the moral or inspirational angle rather than the romanticised relationship one.

When these fairy stories are seen against the highly sexualised multi-media background of the world we are in today, then the other messages they contain are the ones that become easier for our kids to pick up on because they can be more sensitised to these themes.

Like the fact that the beautiful princess gets the guy.
"And they all live happily ever after".:rolleyes: Now thats the theme that needs to be taken out against the wall and shot!!

panda100

I couldnt watch the youtube link cos I have no sound on my computer today for some wierd reason. But my two cents anyway,

As female role models go the lead female characters in Disney movies are pretty horrific. Take Beauty and the beast for example, which minus the catchy tunes and teapots is pretty much a modern story of domestic violence. Belle is trapped in a house by a "monster"--he tells her he can give her everything, make her happy, but she is forcibly separated from family, friends, etc, isolated in the castle, the same way abusive husbands/boyfriends isolate the women they abuse. The film then encourages the idea that If we stick with this monster then we can change the monster into a loving and caring partner. This,of course, is one of the myths that keeps women with abusive husbands.

John Mason

Hmmm, well let me see i grew up on Disney movies and ladybird books.

Which would mean by your logical, i am a damsel in distress waiting for my prince in shining armour to come and rescue me. Well, something appears to have gone wrong along the way.


Boys and Girls are different, so what, why cant you just let make their own mind up, as they grow.

Children these days are growing up confused and undefined becuase they never had the chance to be children and live in fairy tales and wonder at the magic of the world

John Mason

panda100 wrote: »

I couldnt watch the youtube link cos I have no sound on my computer today for some wierd reason. But my two cents anyway,

As female role models go the lead female characters in Disney movies are pretty horrific. Take Beauty and the beast for example, which minus the catchy tunes and teapots is pretty much a modern story of domestic violence. Belle is trapped in a house by a "monster"--he tells her he can give her everything, make her happy, but she is forcibly separated from family, friends, etc, isolated in the castle, the same way abusive husbands/boyfriends isolate the women they abuse. The film then encourages the idea that If we stick with this monster then we can change the monster into a loving and caring partner. This,of course, is one of the myths that keeps women with abusive husbands.

OMG are you for real?:eek:

I am 33 years of age and i have never seen taht in that the fairy tale. the book is about the reason the beast is a monster is because everyone treated him like a monster becuase of his looks but the beauty can see past that and see only the good inside, so therefore he is beautiful to her

well thats what i was thought the book meant when i was growing when did the meaning of this story change?

why are all you feminist ruining childhood fairy tales

i have to say i am totally shocked and horrified by what i am reading here :eek:

g'em

irishbird wrote: »

why are all you feminist ruining childhood fairy tales

i have to say i am totally shocked and horrified by what i am reading here :eek:

Even more shocking for me is that I agree with IB... I kid, I kid irishbird...

There are some seriously skewed takes on the meaning of these fairytales here - surely the moral of Beauty and the Beast is to see beyond the aesthetic and appreciate the person inside? Likewise with the Princess and the Frog? Or is that a made-up moral from Disney Corp. too?

WindSock

The only time I found double meanings in a Disney film was when I was stoned off my head watching Monsters Inc. I cant even remember what the meanings were now, but I'm sure they were terribly insightful at the time.

paperclip2

irishbird wrote: »

OMG are you for real?:eek:

I am 33 years of age and i have never seen taht in that the fairy tale. the book is about the reason the beast is a monster is because everyone treated him like a monster becuase of his looks but the beauty can see past that and see only the good inside, so therefore he is beautiful to her

well thats what i was thought the book meant when i was growing when did the meaning of this story change?

why are all you feminist ruining childhood fairy tales

i have to say i am totally shocked and horrified by what i am reading here :eek:

If you want to be freaked out read the original tales by Hans Christian Andersen. The Snow Queen scared the bejasus out of me for years for some reason. I think it was the casual knife violence. I didn't find the the Brothers Grimm to be the most General Cert either.:D

John Mason

paperclip2 wrote: »

If you want to be freaked out read the original tales by Hans Christian Andersen. The Snow Queen scared the bejasus out of me for years for some reason. I think it was the casual knife violence. I didn't find the the Brothers Grimm to be the most General Cert either.:D

i love the brothers grimm, but this thread is way more scary.

People, please read these stories with childrens eyes and childrens brain, no cynical, twisted adult brains

Red Hand

g'em wrote: »

Even more shocking for me is that I agree with IB... I kid, I kid irishbird...

There are some seriously skewed takes on the meaning of these fairytales here - surely the moral of Beauty and the Beast is to see beyond the aesthetic and appreciate the person inside? Likewise with the Princess and the Frog? Or is that a made-up moral from Disney Corp. too?

I agree. Next we will have a Jungian interpretation of the Warner Bros Tom and Jerry/Roadrunner and Wile E Coyote cartoons.

People will look to any subject matter to be outraged.

panda100

irishbird wrote: »

why are all you feminist ruining childhood fairy tales

i have to say i am totally shocked and horrified by what i am reading here :eek:

What excatly are you horrified at?If the film is innocent and as sweet as you make it out to be then how could I have 'ruined' the film for you?

Everything is viewed by differnt people in differnt ways and while at face value Disney is seen as warmherated fluff there is serious gener based undertones,which shapes how we view feminity and masculinity in later life. Everything we are subjected to in childhood seeps into our subconciouss and like it or not the Beast treated Belle as a prisoner,throws mirrors at her,verbally abuses her while she just stands there and takes it . What sort of role model is this for young children?
Of course children should use their imaginations and stay in the world of wizards and magicians for as long as they can but they can do this while not being fed sterotypical and damaging gender roles.

Im sorry If I've ruined the film for you but Ive just outlined the plot as I and other saw it,I havent altered what actully happens in the film. In real life these types of ugly beasts very very rarely change into loving handsome princes.,but from a young age women are being fed that they can.

Dragan

g'em wrote: »

Even more shocking for me is that I agree with IB... I kid, I kid irishbird...

There are some seriously skewed takes on the meaning of these fairytales here - surely the moral of Beauty and the Beast is to see beyond the aesthetic and appreciate the person inside? Likewise with the Princess and the Frog? Or is that a made-up moral from Disney Corp. too?

The moral of any story can be taken and twisted to suit a person needs with very little back up. We were all taught to do this for the English Leaving Cert.:)

Personally, i find it funny that the people who complain about how Disney "portray women" seem to have no issue with the way they "portray men".

I mean, if girls are being told to stay with abusive husbands then surely boys are being told to beat their wifes?

If such messages can make a woman into the type of person who will stay with someone who mistreats her, and this is bad and she is to be pitied, then where is the pity for the men who have been brainwashed into beating their wives?

These poor men, who put for the horror of Disney would have grown up to be loving husbands.

Hopefully i have created a ridiculous enough scenario here for people to see what i mean.

Red Hand

irishbird wrote: »

i love the brothers grimm, but this thread is way more scary.

People, please read these stories with childrens eyes and childrens brain, no cynical, twisted adult brains

Such tales tend to be blatent in their morals. The Frog Prince...moral=look beyond appearances, you might be surprised.

But then again, in the original form of the Brothers Grimm I read, you get tales like "The Jew in the thorns". And it is just as blatent as the Frog Prince's message, though we'd see it as anti-semetic today.

Nevyn

Dragan if you watched the second clip it deals with how men are portayed,
I have a daughter and a son and so worry about what messeages are being fed to both of them.

WindSock

And my response to how men are portrayed in that clip:

John Mason

panda100 wrote: »

What excatly are you horrified at?If the film is innocent and as sweet as you make it out to be then how could I have 'ruined' the film for you?

Everything is viewed by differnt people in differnt ways and while at face value Disney is seen as warmherated fluff there is serious gener based undertones,which shapes how we view feminity and masculinity in later life. Everything we are subjected to in childhood seeps into our subconciouss and like it or not the Beast treated Belle as a prisoner,throws mirrors at her,verbally abuses her while she just stands there and takes it . What sort of role model is this for young children?
Of course children should use their imaginations and stay in the world of wizards and magicians for as long as they can but they can do this while not being fed sterotypical and damaging gender roles.

Im sorry If I've ruined the film for you but Ive just outlined the plot as I and other saw it,I havent altered what actully happens in the film. In real life these types of ugly beasts very very rarely change into loving handsome princes.,but from a young age women are being fed that they can.

What, its a childrens book/movie, how have you ruined it for me?

I am not some cynical, bitter twisted individual, i will still read the story to the kids and show them the movie.

i actually really feel sorry for you, that you see evil and hatred in simple things that give pleasure to millions of children and adults.

Dragan

Thaedydal wrote: »

Dragan if you watched the second clip it deals with how men are portayed,
I have a daughter and a son and so worry about what messeages are being fed to both of them.

I think the real issue here is that people are FAR to willing to hand responsibility for things to others.

This is not going to be a popular view but we all make our own choices. Somethings are clearly "good" and somethings are clearly "bad". This is not difficult. If I turn around and beat the **** out of a girl I am seeing then who is to blame?

That’s a serious question and I want people to think about it very carefully. Having grown up in the same Ireland as most of you for the last 27 years, having been exposed to similar things and events, similar books and films, similar political and economical variables.

So, who is responsible?

Me?
Her?
Disney?

The answer is me, plain and simple. Anyone who says anything else is copping out and buying in to a big pile of bull**** because it's easier to find deeper means and causes for society ills than to just say the kind of guy who beats his wife is a **** who should be treated as such. The the people who pray on the weak and innocent need to put down, removed from our society.

Bleeding hearts help no one and sometimes the only thing that needs to be thought about to any major dept is exactly what to do with the assholes who get away with this **** because the majority of people are too ****ing scared to pull their ****ing card.

Nevyn

Ever stop to think irishbird that the reason women in general are os conflicted to the point you can stand them is that they are fed this type of glittery clap trap as children instead of something which fosters independance and respect ?

Dragan I do take responsiblity for what I allow my children to read, watch and what games they play. I monitor it and will sit with them and have dicussions on what they are watchin and get them to think and question what they see in movies and cartoons.

The view of people on how the world is and how they are meant to fit in it starts at a very young age and is influence by what they watch.

I have say I grudgingly watched enchanted with my daughter, it was what she wanted to do for her and I time, turns out the movie clearly draws a line between what is ok in the 'princess' world and that the real world is different, which I was greatful for.

Dragan

Thaedydal wrote: »

Dragan I do take responsiblity for what I allow my children to read, watch and what games they play. I monitor it and will sit with them and have dicussions on what they are watchin and get them to think and question what they see in movies and cartoons.

And thats about the best kind of parenting there is but at the end of the day, should your children or anybody elses ever decide to do anything wrong it will be as simple as that being their decision, not because they watched a Disney flick when they were kids.

Nevyn

It's the assumption that disney films are wholesome and good for kids which boggles me.
It's only a cartoon, it's only a disney movie....it's only a way to sell huge ammount of merchanidise to kids all over the world and to be one of the most persave brands until the little girls grow up some and barbie takes over.

Wibbs

Dragan wrote: »

This is not going to be a popular view but we all make our own choices. Somethings are clearly "good" and somethings are clearly "bad". This is not difficult. If I turn around and beat the **** out of a girl I am seeing then who is to blame?

I agree that it is down to personal responsibility, but I would say that environment has a hell of a lot to do with it. Your specific set of genes and gender have some effect too. Twin studies have shown both. If you grew up in a radically different environment you would have different memories, aspirations and views. Guaranteed.

Now popular culture is part of that environment. Do I think it has as much of an effect as some commentators? Nope, not even close, but I would be equally wrong to think it has none.

You could also look at it and ask the question is this popular because deep down the genders in general are different to each other in how they view parts of the world. Is it creating that or a reflection, however distorted of that?

There were many left wing hippies in the 60's who high on rhetoric were convinced that upbringing was directly responsible for gender differences. That experiment failed time and time again when it was tried. Men and women, boys and girls are different. They view the world differently, they interact with the world differently. Even from birth gender differences are evident. Girl babies respond to faces much more than boy babies who respond more to sound and visual stimuli. This does not mean and should not mean they're not equal partners in humanity. Plus there is more shared ground than differences.

I do agree the concept of "happy ever after" is daft and the idea that with love a woman can transform a twat into a nice guy is equally daft. Indeed when I've seen women who have transformed a guy like that they usually leave him out of boredom.:D

WindSock

I can see arguments on both sides of the coin, but I fear one side of the argument may support those in the States that say listening to rock music makes you shoot your classmates.

Drift

I don't see what's wrong with Disney selling merchandise to maximise their profit from a film. Or indeed vice versa - maximising their merchandising profit by making a film!

Thats the way business works. Just because a profit is made from something doesn't mean it's bad. The entire service industry is designed this way. You buy a good meal the chef makes a profit. Watch a good film, the film maker makes a profit. Disney wouldn't be making any money off merchandise if their films weren't appealing to both kids and parents.

Nevyn

WindSock wrote: »

but I fear one side of the argument may support those in the States that say listening to rock music makes you shoot your classmates.

I don't, talk about poisoning the well.

Piste

It could also be argued that the makers of the film want to encourage girls to look past physicality and that the princess shouldn't reject the frog based on looks alone.





Then again it could just be a heartwarming tale of a princess

fruitbat

As a child, I never really watched that many films or anything (big family, 1 TV, and being the youngest never had any say in what was on) but I did read a lot of fairy tales.

I would say this is different from getting all your fairy tales from Disney as I was not socialised into Disney products etc. I never pictured my Cinderella as the Disney one. I dunno if this is important but maybe it is.

The other thing is, as many people have pointed out, Disney uses folk tales. They take traditional tales from societies, and they change them. Mulan never fell in love, Pocahontas never married John Smith.

Seemingly a lot of Native Americans were insulted by Pocahontas, as it was viewed as the appropriation of their culture by Disney/American culture. They lost control of their folklore and had the historical context sanitised.
So do we just ignore their concerns and say its just Disney, it doesn't matter?

Perhaps if the Cattle Raid of Cooley was 'Disneyfied' we would all be horrified. A Disney Princess Maeve would probably have raided Ulster for the Bull (disney strong intelligent woman type), but then given it to her husband for a quiet life (disney strong intelligent woman is happier with her man anyway).

Nevyn

There were cultural objections to aladin as well.

LolaLuv

taconnol wrote: »

If you want to see this in action, go see the Duchess film. Shocking. And in the history of mankind, not that long ago.

Oh kids totally soak this stuff up. Go see a Warners Bros cartoon & they all have hidden messages & morals.

On a more blatant note, I remember when I was 7 my brother got an uber-cool Boys Handbook (blue of course) that showed him how to go camping, make a kite, little scientific experiements etc. I kept stealing it to read & he went crying to our parents. So to settle the issue, my parents got me the girl's version. It was pink. It had no mention of camping, kites or science. Instead it was full of exercises like stomach crunches and aerobics. Oh and a list of foods with their corresponding calories.

Needless to say, it gathered a lot of dust & I went back to stealing my brothers. BUT I was only 7!! Of course some of it went in. You can be intelligent as you like but when you're a kid, you just don't have the understanding or capacity to filter out the positive messages from the negative ones.

Wow, that's terrible! It really made me sad to read that. Just awful.

Op, thanks for posting that and for creating a discussion. I agree that Disney puts lots of harmful themes into its movies. I don't know why there's such a negative reaction to that belief throughout this thread. At the end of the day, everyone interprets things differently and it's up to individual parents to decide what their children may and may not watch.

As a child I was never crazy about the princess movies. I couldn't relate to them because they were these ridiculously gorgeous cartoon characters and I was an awkward looking human child that would never grow up to have straight blonde hair and dainty little movements. I'm glad I didn't subscribe to that culture. Now that I have nieces, I can't believe how Disney is marketing its princesses to little girls. There wasn't such an onslaught when I was a child. Thankfully, both sister and sister-in-law are feminists and, while they purchase the merchandise for their daughters if they want it, they also discuss what it means to be a princess. The old saying "She who waits for her knight in shining armor must remember that she will have to clean up after his horse" comes to mind.