Irish Tolls map

IIMII

Found this. Another accurate transportation publication.

I love the way that they seem to have overlooked the fact that there are 2 toll plazas on the M3..

amacachi

There are?


Haven't noticed a toll plaza around Dundalk strangely enough.

Victor

It isn't a map of toll plazas, its a map of PPP roads.

The PPP partner running the toll at Drogheda built the Dundlak Western Bypass and is repsonsible for maintaining Gormanston to north of Dundalk.

BluntGuy

That's an uncomfortable number of tolls.

amacachi

Victor wrote: »

It isn't a map of toll plazas, its a map of PPP roads.

The PPP partner running the toll at Drogheda built the Dundlak Western Bypass and is repsonsible for maintaining Gormanston to north of Dundalk.

Yeah, just a pity it says "Toll Plazas in Ireland".

L1011

BluntGuy wrote: »

That's an uncomfortable number of tolls.

Its nothing compared to some of our near neighbours:

- many of these tolls are in the region of €20 not €2 at that!

And their fuel is dearer... but no VRT and I don't believe they've road tax either. And all the toll roads have a realistic A-road alternative.

Zoney

And they actually have reasonable public transport.

penexpers

MYOB wrote: »

Its nothing compared to some of our near neighbours:

- many of these tolls are in the region of €20 not €2 at that!

And their fuel is dearer... but no VRT and I don't believe they've road tax either. And all the toll roads have a realistic A-road alternative.

They do have road tax.

marmurr1916

MYOB wrote: »

Its nothing compared to some of our near neighbours:

- many of these tolls are in the region of €20 not €2 at that!

And their fuel is dearer... but no VRT and I don't believe they've road tax either. And all the toll roads have a realistic A-road alternative.

Surely in France the autoroutes are the A-roads? Don't you mean a Route Nationale (or N-road) alternative?

The alternatives to many motorways in Ireland are/will be relatively good former national roads often with 100km/h speed limits. I can't think of any sections of tolled motorway in Ireland (bar the M50) where the alternative route is of such poor quality that it's not viable to use.

There's no road tax on most private vehicles in France (under 3.5 tonnes) although some camper vans and vehicles with higher CO2 emissions are subject to road tax. All vehicles over 3.5 tonnes and the fourth and subsequent vehicles belonging to a business are subject to road tax.

L1011

Yeah, I meant N roads, oops...

EastLink, and I'd argue the M3 when its done don't have viable alternatives - the N3 will require complete resurfacing, new junctions etc along its length to keep it above local access level - although the new alignment already there does that at the southern end.

Tarabuses

MYOB wrote: »

Yeah, I meant N roads, oops...

EastLink, and I'd argue the M3 when its done don't have viable alternatives - the N3 will require complete resurfacing, new junctions etc along its length to keep it above local access level - although the new alignment already there does that at the southern end.

I thought there had to be an alternative to all Motorways. Otherwise how do L-drivers, Honda50s, Scooters etc. travel across the country? Isn't that why the Naas Road is open to everyone?

Mailman

the M4 doesn't have a viable alternative route.
speed limit is set to 80kmph on many stretches of the old road and planning permission has been opened up so loads of local traffic along the route.

Run_to_da_hills

marmurr1916 wrote: »

(bar the M50) where the alternative route is of such poor quality that it's not viable to use.

The Westlink toll is technically illegal and should be challanged in Europe as there is no proper alternate route for those who wish not to use it particularly commercial users, one such alternative route I.E, through the Phoenix park is a no go area for all commercial vehicles including vans.

BluntGuy

MYOB wrote: »

Its nothing compared to some of our near neighbours:

- many of these tolls are in the region of €20 not €2 at that!

And their fuel is dearer... but no VRT and I don't believe they've road tax either. And all the toll roads have a realistic A-road alternative.

I already knew that many routes in France are tolled. BUT... there are numerous differences.

(a) France has a well-developed, high-speed train network between principal cities. We have... err... the Irish Rail service.

(b) France has a number of good alternative routes which are good quality WS2 are the least. We have very few good alternative routes.

(c) France is a MUCH bigger country then ours.

We will have far too many tolls for such a small nation. A mere trip of 257 km from Dublin to Cork will set you back 4 or 5 euro, one-way. Imagine haulage companies that have to do this once or twice everyday, it'll set them back a fortune over time.

HOWEVER, I do understand that in order to hasten the building of our roads that PPP schemes are needed. I just wish there weren't so damn many, or that the tolling of the routes was more evenly spread out (rather than two tolls on the M8 and M6, have one on the N11 and M9).

marmurr1916

Mailman wrote: »

the M4 doesn't have a viable alternative route.
speed limit is set to 80kmph on many stretches of the old road and planning permission has been opened up so loads of local traffic along the route.

Maybe so, but it's still a viable alternative route as long as you don't mind travelling more slowly.

Surely the main purpose of a motorway is to allow long-distance traffic and HGVs to travel at high speed in relative safety?

Many people don't like travelling at high speed and prefer to use standard roads. If you're that determined to avoid the relatively low tolls payable on Irish motorways you can always use the motorway for part of your journey and use the alternative route for the tolled sections.

Some people will gladly put up with the inconvenience of this for the sake of E2.00 or so, others will pay the toll.

The decision to toll the M50 was a stupid one in hindsight, although at the time it was originally planned it was meant to cater for long-distance traffic, not for commuters.

Mailman

No, It's not a viable alternative as the local county councils keep granting planning permission for further development and extend 50 and 60kmph zones further out from the towns and villages along the route.

marmurr1916

If it can be driven on by HGVs and other large vehicles in reasonable safety then it's a viable alternative regardless of how slow the route is.

Hagar

penexpers wrote: »

They do have road tax.

No they don't.

Petrol is dearer. Cheapest 95 UL near me is €1.419 per litre.

Just as a rough guide tolls on the Peage in France work out at about 9 to 10 cents per kilometre in the South. Can't comment on tolls further North.

Mailman

marmurr1916 wrote: »

If it can be driven on by HGVs and other large vehicles in reasonable safety then it's a viable alternative regardless of how slow the route is.

It's not viable as use of the alternate route leads to road deaths.
There were regular fatal crashes on the old route and those crosses you see along the route weren't put there just because somebody liked the look of them.
I came across so many accidents on that route in the time I was travelling it and narrowly avoided collisions with psychopaths along the way. I can still remember yer man in the oncoming Peugeot 205 travelling on the wrong side of the road overtaking traffic gesturing at me with his middle finger up in the air as he barged his way through in a game of chicken with random motorists on the Kinnegad side of Kilcock or the BMW 5-series driver who decided to overtake another car overtaking a slow moving vehicle using the hard shoulder on the far side of the road to overtake both cars at the same time or the Passat driver who overtook me on an unbroken white line at a bridge where the road narrows and then later pulls in at Kinnegad to have a drink in a Pub with his passenger.
The M4/M6 have already saved lives in the short time they have been open.
Average speed time along the old route would now be down to somewhere between 60 and 70kmph because planning permission was opened up along the route and with extra local traffic it's more dangerous than ever, not just for the motorists passing through but to the locals too.

Mailman

Hagar wrote: »

No they don't.

Petrol is dearer. Cheapest 95 UL near me is €1.419 per litre.

Just as a rough guide tolls on the Peage in France work out at about 9 to 10 cents per kilometre in the South. Can't comment on tolls further North.

But diesel is cheper than petrol by about 5 cent isn't it?

Motor Tax here for a 2 litre car would be €600 ish.
petrol is 15cent cheaper here. You'd need to burn 4000 litres of petrol before you match the cost of road tax.
Why you would even want to set out in a car across France for most trips when the trains are so good.
Here the cost of administering the tax system digs in to the Revenue collected from Motor tax too. It wastes Garda and Court time in enforcement too.

marmurr1916

Mailman wrote: »

It's not viable as use of the alternate route leads to road deaths.
There were regular fatal crashes on the old route and those crosses you see along the route weren't put there just because somebody liked the look of them.
I came across so many accidents on that route in the time I was travelling it and narrowly avoided collisions with psychopaths along the way. I can still remember yer man in the oncoming Peugeot 205 travelling on the wrong side of the road overtaking traffic gesturing at me with his middle finger up in the air as he barged his way through in a game of chicken with random motorists on the Kinnegad side of Kilcock or the BMW 5-series driver who decided to overtake another car overtaking a slow moving vehicle using the hard shoulder on the far side of the road to overtake both cars at the same time or the Passat driver who overtook me on an unbroken white line at a bridge where the road narrows and then later pulls in at Kinnegad to have a drink in a Pub with his passenger.
The M4/M6 have already saved lives in the short time they have been open.
Average speed time along the old route would now be down to somewhere between 60 and 70kmph because planning permission was opened up along the route and with extra local traffic it's more dangerous than ever, not just for the motorists passing through but to the locals too.

It may be slow but it's still a viable alternative. It was once a national route, used for decades by all traffic. Just because it's now been down-graded to a regional route with slower average speeds doesn't mean it can't be used.

It may not be a pleasant alternative for those who want to travel at high speed but not everyone does want to go fast.

Older drivers especially seem to be a lot more comfortable driving at a maximum of 80 km/h. Those drivers, along with L-drivers and people who don't like motorways, will be able to continue to use this route as a practical and viable, if slower, alternative route from Dublin to the west.

If you simply want to avoid the toll, come off at Kilcock and rejoin beyond Kinnegad.

Hopefully the type of crazy driving that we have on busy national routes will become much less frequent as the speed merchants and suicidally impatient drivers use the motorways instead.

Mailman

marmurr1916 wrote: »

If it can be driven on by HGVs and other large vehicles in reasonable safety then it's a viable alternative regardless of how slow the route is.

so you are just surrendering the point of safety in your adjusted arguement?

marmurr1916 wrote: »

If you simply want to avoid the toll, come off at Kilcock and rejoin beyond Kinnegad.

The incidents I referred to all happened on this stretch of road which you are suggesting people divert on to.

marmurr1916

Mailman wrote: »

If it can be driven on by HGVs and other large vehicles in reasonable safety then it's a viable alternative regardless of how slow the route is.
so you are just surrendering the point of safety in your adjusted arguement?


The incidents I referred to all happened on this stretch of road which you are suggesting people divert on to.

No. Reasonable safety is a perfectly acceptable standard of safety to aspire to. Unless you're looking for unreasonable levels of safety?

I assume such incidents as you describe (and I've witnessed similar ones on other major national routes) happened when this road was the main road from Dublin to the west and some drivers lost patience and took stupidly dangerous overtaking risks.

The type of driver who places a premium on speed will use the motorways, drivers who prefer a slower journey will use the old routes.

A route does not have to allow for average speeds of 100 km/h to be a viable alternative route to a motorway.

Mailman

If I thought I could even get an average speed of 90kmph out of that road in reasonable safety I'd still be using it; I can't. It's not a viable alternative route.

Also, due to the design of the M4 motorway to maximise PPP revenue to the toll operator the old road is now a very very long slip road on to the motorway at Kilcock so most of those madmen in the dormitory towns of West Leinster are still using the old road up to the Kilcock on-ramp.

marmurr1916

That's where we disagree obviously. I think an average speed of 70-80 km/h (which being realistic was about the average speed on most major national routes before motorways/dual-carriageways) would be perfectly acceptable.

Sometimes it's nice to slow down and see the world pass by instead of belting along at 120+.

Mailman

Nothing stopping someone from driving at that speed on the inside lane of the motorway and the view is better from the motorway.
56mph is optimal speed in most cars from an efficiency point of view.
You propose a lower travelling speed than this interspersed with frequent accleration\deceleration.

You are a luddite.
The supposed alternate route is neither satisfactory from a safety or progress point of view to the majority of drivers; if it was the PPP private partner would not have signed up to the scheme as they would have known beforehand there was no profit in it for them.

BluntGuy

marmurr1916 wrote: »

That's where we disagree obviously. I think an average speed of 70-80 km/h (which being realistic was about the average speed on most major national routes before motorways/dual-carriageways) would be perfectly acceptable.

Sometimes it's nice to slow down and see the world pass by instead of belting along at 120+.

Well I both agree and disagree.

I disagree with just dropping the speed limit down to 80 in ALL parts of old national routes. The 100 limit should be maintained where 100 can be done at a safe speed. There is little sense in blanket speed changes.

HOWEVER, some national routes simply had the 100 speed limit because they were NATIONAL ROUTES, even if it was unsafe to do that speed. Dropping it to 80 in those areas, is a sensible move.

BluntGuy

Mailman wrote: »

Nothing stopping someone from driving at that speed on the inside lane of the motorway and the view is better from the motorway.
56mph is optimal speed in most cars from an efficiency point of view.
You propose a lower travelling speed than this interspersed with frequent accleration\deceleration.

You are a luddite.
The supposed alternate route is neither satisfactory from a safety or progress point of view to the majority of drivers; if it was the PPP private partner would not have signed up to the scheme as they would have known beforehand there was no profit in it for them.

But I don't think the old roads should be left in such a mess just to force people to use toll routes.

I agree with your point about views on motorways. The views on the Fermoy M8 are spectacular at times, especially over the viaduct.

marmurr1916

Well I both agree and disagree.

I disagree with just dropping the speed limit down to 80 in ALL parts of old national routes. The 100 limit should be maintained where 100 can be done at a safe speed. There is little sense in blanket speed changes.

HOWEVER, some national routes simply had the 100 speed limit because they were NATIONAL ROUTES, even if it was unsafe to do that speed. Dropping it to 80 in those areas, is a sensible move.

Totally agree. That's why it's nice to see some parts of the old main Cork-Dublin road retaining the 100 km/h speed limit.

It's actually a pretty good system. The default limit of 80 km/h is about right for most regional roads but having the flexibility to allow local authorities to increase the limit to 100 km/h (or retain it in the case of former national routes) on suitable stretches of road makes sense too.

Mailman

reclassification as 100kmph doesn't work in practice. The local authorities with no funding from central government and poor planning strategy are pre-disposed to grant planning permission and extend 50 and 60kmph well beyond the boundaries of villages and towns on national roads.
This has happened, is happening and will continue to happen as long as permission for planning is administered locally.
The fact that local councils are stuffed to the gills with councillors who are also developers whom the county managers cow-tow to doesn't help either.

You appear to have a fuzzy fluffy opinion of how the world works. All my contributions are based on facts and actualities.
No viable alternate route exists and the supposed alternates will dis-improve with time as they are developed upon.