Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

What was your religious circumstance, when you embraced Atheism?

Options
13

Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Dades wrote: »
    Like why otherwise normal folk, who have the faculties to operate heavy machinery, can honestly believe the universe is less than 10,000 years old!
    Thing that worries me is that there's a good chance that some of the guys who drive planes might believe it too.

    Never quite understood why anybody who believes there's a good chance they'd be raptured would be irresponsible enough to put themselves into a position where the lives of their passengers would be at risk.

    Unless they were only pretending to believe it...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,956 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    I grew up with a mother who trained to be a nun in Lourdes and an Atheist father who had every volume of Das Kapital on the shelves in the spare room along with several other books that might have brought concerned glances from the local clergy. I think right from the start I was a form of agnostic and over the years have evolved into an Atheist. Long answer follows. Short answer at the end.

    We (my sister and I) were baptised Catholics and brought to Mass every Sunday when we were young. Probably standard enough in Ireland regardless of your parents beliefs. Right from the start we'd notice the group of folks who would stand at the back of the church just outside the door puffing fags waiting for it all to end, the mini-fashion competition going on inside, the robotic recitation of words and we did the same even though we would often question it to our folks.

    At home we could air our thoughts about these things but school was where the fun began. I actually started in a Protestant School because there was no room in the Christian Brothers. There were a few Catholics there so they would bring in a local nun from the Convent to teach us our religion. This nun was amazing. Traditional hellfire and brimstone religious instruction. All about how to end up in hell. Actually quite funny when I look back at it but for us it was truly terrifying stuff. Around this time of course we did our first confession. I made my first real protest after that and decided I wasn't going to bother going ever again. We were being taught we could talk to God anytime we wished but we had to visit the local priest to confess to him. Made no sense to me and I would argue this point amongst friends regularly.

    A testament to religious schooling of the time, though, is it weighed on my mind a bit. A few months on and almost as if the old nun was psychic she spent a lesson talking confession and describing the eternal pain and suffering in the bowels of hell for those who didn't confess regularly. At the end she said if anyone wanted to talk to her privately about not going to confession they could. I went up shaking and admitted I hadn't been in months. Surprisingly she was quite calm and told me to go that Saturday which I duly did. When I went and told the priest I hadn't been in 6 months or whatever he said "ah yes I heard about you" and that my friends was my last confession.

    When I finished 5th class in primary school an opportunity came up to move to the Christian Brothers but doing 5th class again. Most of my mates were in that class so I was happy to do it. I was genuinely unprepared for the Brothers though. Brother O'Sullivan, our 5th class teacher, was without a doubt the most violent man I have ever witnessed and hopefully ever will. I think he can take a bow for putting yet another nail in my religious beliefs. Discussing the Christian Brothers is a discussion for another day but to my mind a lot of them should have been in jail along side a lot of priests. One of this country's terrible legacies I think.

    As far as general religious practice went my mother had always ensured we went to Mass every Sunday. She wasn't devout or anything but liked us to go as a family. She was at the time an All-Ireland winning actress but suddenly one night while performing she got stage-fright and pretty much never acted again. This turned out to be claustraphobia and meant she couldn't go to Mass anymore. This was enough of an excusefor the rest of us to stop going too. We used to drive to the Grannys with my Dad saying "remember we were at 12.15 Mass if she asks".

    Because of her claustraphobia mam got very big into alternative medicine. All kinds of weird things for the time. Group therapy, bach remedies, rebirthing etc. She'd always say to me don't tell any of your friends what I'm into as they wouldn't understand. This would have been the '80s but she was afraid the local community would consider her a nut-job. Her new beliefs were not that much different to a belief in God in some ways so as she was my mother I tried to always keep an open mind and still do but this started the whole idea in my mind that when people are troubled they often turn to other things be it religion or others forms of unusual beliefs to find strength. I don't really look down on people for this I just recognise it. I personally value finding strength from within and from friends and family if needed.

    On a brief side note we used to holiday in France a lot and once we were staying very close to Lourdes and decided to pay a visit as mam fancied seeing her old training ground. If you ever wanted to see the most depressing example of religious faith at work then check it out. Apologies to those who consider Lourdes a sacred place but I found it to be very very sad. Cheap trinkets on sale in every shop, no naked flesh (i.e. no t-shirts or shorts) allowed in the main area, queues of the most terribly afflicted people with nothing but sad and desperate hope in their faces.

    By the time I got to secondary school I was a fully fledged agnostic. I was not willing to dismiss the existence of God but perfectly willing to dismiss it in it's practitioners. I had never at any point in my memory considered The Old Testament of the Bible to be truth but I genuinely found the story of Jesus and The New Testament to be relatively inspirational. I'm no scholar of the Good Book but most of the ideas of Christianity are great. I was willing to accept that a great man called Jesus may have walked this earth 2000 years ago but not that he was the son of God. 2000 years is long enough for a man with a great love of humanity to be turned into a deity by his followers writing about him.

    Some of the principles of Christianity and of course the influence of my father's socialism prompted me to get involved with Labour Youth when I was about 16. I was full of naive idealism. People should be treated better not left to an expectancy of a better life in the after-life and so on but a few years involved with politicians was enough to put me off that too eventually. Ever been wined and dined, handed some cash to get boozed up and then told who to vote for the next day at conference then alienated for refusing to do so? Not fun. Beyond politics simply going to O'Connell St. with my family and marching against the upcoming war in Iraq back in 2002 felt great to be part of. Politics is far too cynical for me now and lacks this agenda-free quality of simply standing up and saying something is not right as opposed to not standing up because market research shows that point of view will lose votes.

    So once I got to college I had completely left religion and over the years God behind. It's just been work and life ever since. I seem to have rambled on a bit too much so sorry for that but I think for me embracing Atheism took a while and it was fun getting here. My strongest belief is doing the right things whenever possible. I'm not perfect by any means but I think being a good person comes from having good people around you throughout your life. I prefer to take my inspiration from real people like my family, friends, Ghandi, Mandela even Bill Hicks and so on.

    On a final wishy washy note in this overlong ramble I think the strongest, bravest and most powerful thing anyone can do these days is to forgive. Ironic coming from an Atheist?

    * short answer - mother Catholic, father Atheist.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    So many have come to believe God is vengeful and tyrannical. Not so.

    Have you read the Old Testament?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Raised catholic by parents and school. Why question what my parents told me I thought. Remember thinking quite clearly at 8 years old, 'what a load of ****e, I can't believe adults believe this, are they trying to just take the piss out of me?' whilst making a daisy chain. Haven't looked back since.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I'm not.

    You could have fooled me. Religion is completely cultural.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Are you actively seeking something greater than yourself? Have you asked God to reveal himself to you leaving pride at the door?

    I don't need to seek I know there are things greater than myself. Its quite obvious to me. You think there is any pride in realising the vastness of the universe and our insignificance in it. I leave the pride to religious folk such as yourself.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    And why are you so convinced that there is a rational/natural explanation for everything? Do you dismiss all miracles automatically?

    I do. Miracles the contradictory religious silver bullet. Why the need for the irrational supernatural Kelly1?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Why so much faith in science? There are still HUGE questions that science can't answer.

    Note the highlighted word "still".


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    kelly1 wrote: »

    God made nobody evil. Where did you get that idea???

    But god made everything. So he plays dice then?

    That doesn't answer the question I asked.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Why not read the lives of the saints or talk to a doctor who has witnessed a miracle of talk to an exorcist? It's not rock solid proof but it's very hard to ignore

    A miracle is just something statistically unlikely, that maybe isn't fully understood yet. YET. And statistically unlikely things do happen from time to time.

    Much of what we take for granted today would have been seen as a miracle in the past. That is one of the worst things about religion, to paraphrase Richard Dawkins it teaches us to be happy with not understanding the world.



    kelly1 wrote: »
    True, it's a poor argument but I do atheists really think about the possibility that they could end up in hell for eternity?

    I try not to think about that to be honest, as I don't think it's at all likely that any such place exists. And it's your religion that created this nasty idea in the first place, surely one of the most evil creations of the human mind. Thanks for that.

    kelly1 wrote: »
    Why so much faith in science?

    Because it works, simple as that.


    There are still HUGE questions that science can't answer

    There are questions that science hasn't answered yet and may never answer. Nobody said that science can tell us everything. But as a means to understanding the world we live in it's given us a heck of alot more than religion ever will.

    I always think it's a little ironic that people come on the internet bashing science (you aren't the first I assure you) while typing away on a computer that owes it's existence to decades and even centuries of scientific research.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Thanks for that poignant story Musician. Again and again, I keep hearing stories from people who had religion beaten into and then out of them. It really and truly is tragic. Christianity is primarily about love of God and neighbour but all people seemed to hear about in those days was hellfire and brimstone!

    Where was the talk of God's love and mercy. His personal love for each and every one of us. The Love that Christ showed by dying on the cross for us and giving Himself entirely to us in Holy Communion and being a merciful God when He forgives our sins in confession, giving us grace to avoid self-destructive sin and restoring us to spiritual health.

    Having said that, I don't want to diminish the enormity of sin because it rejects the ultimate good. But back in Ireland in the 50s/60s, there was way too much emphasis on sin and hell (realities which we ignore at our peril).

    Did they ever talk about Jesus' incredible love for us? Did they speak about How His Sacred Heart burns with Love for us? Did they say how Jesus wants nothing more than to forgive the sinner and bestow His amazing grace which makes us like God and make the angels envious of us? People don't realize the dignity of the children of God!

    EDIT; As Jesus said himself, He came not to condemn but to save!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Thanks for that poignant story Musician. Again and again, I keep hearing stories from people who had religion beaten into and then out of them. It really and truly is tragic. Christianity is primarily about love of God and neighbour but all people seemed to hear about in those days was hellfire and brimstone!

    Where was the talk of God's love and mercy. His personal love for each and every one of us. The Love that Christ showed by dying on the cross for us and giving Himself entirely to us in Holy Communion and being a merciful God when He forgives our sins in confession, giving us grace to avoid self-destructive sin and restoring us to spiritual health.

    Having said that, I don't want to diminish the enormity of sin because it rejects the ultimate good. But back in Ireland in the 50s/60s, there was way too much emphasis on sin and hell (realities which we ignore at our peril).

    Did they ever talk about Jesus' incredible love for us? Did they speak about How His Sacred Heart burns with Love for us? Did they say how Jesus wants nothing more than to forgive the sinner and bestow His amazing grace which makes us like God and make the angels envious of us? People don't realize the dignity of the children of God!

    EDIT; As Jesus said himself, He came not to condemn but to save!

    I urge you to read over what you said in that post and completely leave emotion out of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    You could have fooled me. Religion is completely cultural.
    Of course religion arises within a culture but culture isn't what it's about. It more universal that cultural.
    I don't need to seek I know there are things greater than myself. Its quite obvious to me. You think there is any pride in realising the vastness of the universe and our insignificance in it. I leave the pride to religious folk such as yourself.
    I can be proud sometimes as all humans can be but I'm humble enough to worship God and ask His forgiveness when I sin.
    I do. Miracles the contradictory religious silver bullet. Why the need for the irrational supernatural Kelly1?
    And why do you dismiss the possibility of something supernatural behind miracles? Do you believe they're all fakes or that we've yet to discover some amazing power of the body that will force us to re-write the laws of physics?

    Or are you afraid your atheistic faith might be shaken?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    ...Do you believe they're all fakes or that we've yet to discover some amazing power of the body that will force us to re-write the laws of physics?...

    I do believe there all fakes. To answer your second question my understanding of science leads me to believe that its okay to find out you were wrong about what might happen in a given circumstance we're only human after all. Do you think it was a miracle a man could walk on the moon? No it was science.

    I don't have atheistic faith because there is no such thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    kelly1 wrote: »
    And why do you dismiss the possibility of something supernatural behind miracles? Do you believe they're all fakes or that we've yet to discover some amazing power of the body that will force us to re-write the laws of physics?

    There is not a shred of evidence that anybody has ever been cured of illness by a miracle of god. NOT ONE SINGLE SHRED. How we could possibly even know that someone had been is beyond me. People sometimes just get better, and sometimes even without any active medication at all (placebo effect). In some cases we don't really know exactly how or why these things happen. As has been said, science doesn't pretend to have all the answers. But the rational person says, if we could just gather more data, do more research, then maybe we will be able to understand it better one day. The religious believer says 'god did it!', and promptly switches his brain off.

    If you want to convince me that miracles really happen, find me an amputee whose leg miraculously regrew, or a quadraplegic who astounded the world by walking away from his wheelchair having prayed to god for mercy. You notice how god never really does any cool stuff like that.
    Or are you afraid your atheistic faith might be shaken?

    Atheism is not a faith. You know that but I suspect you're just trying to provoke a reaction.

    I'm open to changing my position when new evidence comes to light, evidence that suggests I could be wrong and that maybe god does exist after all. No such evidence has ever been presented.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    But god made everything. So he plays dice then?
    I was only reading about this last night. You're probably tired of the free-will argument. So let me try this.

    God could have created every creature with a certain finite level of glory and holiness etc. But God decided to let us determine that. By allowing us to decide to do His will or reject His will in self-determined degrees, he gave us the ability to grow, without an imposed limit, in grace and holiness. We decide how big our "cup" is and when we make it to Heaven God fills our "cup" to the brim so that everyone is completely happy even though some would have greater glory that others.

    Does that make any sense? It another free-will argument but gives another reason for free-will.

    To answer your question about infinite punishment for a finite crime, I think the answer to this is that the crime is infinte in the sense that sin is a rejection of an infinite good (God). The punishment in hell isn't infinite in severity put is infinite in duration and the primary punishment in hell is the lack of God (which we freely chose). Every time we sin, we make a conscious decision to go against the will of God (which is revealed by our in-built conscience). God doesn't force His will on us. Would you prefer to be an automaton?
    aidan24326 wrote: »
    A miracle is just something statistically unlikely, that maybe isn't fully understood yet. YET. And statistically unlikely things do happen from time to time.
    Take for instance someone who one minute has a brain tumour and the next has no tumour. It would take quite a leap of imagination to accept that such a thing could happen naturally.
    aidan24326 wrote: »
    I try not to think about that to be honest, as I don't think it's at all likely that any such place exists. And it's your religion that created this nasty idea in the first place, surely one of the most evil creations of the human mind. Thanks for that.
    You're assuming it's a human creation. Are you quite comfortable with that assumption?
    aidan24326 wrote: »
    Because it works, simple as that.
    And so does religion but far better.
    aidan24326 wrote: »
    There are questions that science hasn't answered yet and may never answer. Nobody said that science can tell us everything. But as a means to understanding the natural world we live in it's given us a heck of alot more than religion ever will.
    Small correction.
    aidan24326 wrote: »
    I always think it's a little ironic that people come on the internet bashing science (you aren't the first I assure you) while typing away on a computer that owes it's existence to decades and even centuries of scientific research.
    I assure you I have nothing against science, I quite keen on it. I'm currently reading the Road to Reality by Roger Penrose.

    I urge you to read over what you said in that post and completely leave emotion out of it.
    Why? Are emotions invalid or worthless?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,103 ✭✭✭estebancambias


    epic post there musician. i've been to lourdes myself and it was horrible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    aidan24326 wrote: »
    There is not a shred of evidence that anybody has ever been cured of illness by a miracle of god. NOT ONE SINGLE SHRED. How we could possibly even know that someone had been is beyond me.
    You surely wouldn't deny that sudden unexplainable cures have occurred, would you? Why on earth would you believe that someday science will find an explanation? That's putting incredible faith in science!
    aidan24326 wrote: »
    If you want to convince me that miracles really happen, find me an amputee whose leg miraculously regrew, or a quadraplegic who astounded the world by walking away from his wheelchair having prayed to god for mercy. You notice how god never really does any cool stuff like that.
    Would that really convince you?? Wouldn't you wait for a scientific explanation? Why does the miracle have to be so dramatic before you believe?
    aidan24326 wrote: »
    Atheism is not a faith. You know that but I suspect you're just trying to provoke a reaction.
    I is in the sense that it's a choice to believe something.
    aidan24326 wrote: »
    I'm open to changing my position when new evidence comes to light, evidence that suggests I could be wrong and that maybe god does exist after all. No such evidence has ever been presented.
    You want God to submit to you and prove Himself to you? You'll be waiting!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    epic post there musician. i've been to lourdes myself and it was horrible.
    Amazing, I was in Lourdes and I can honestly say it was the best week of my life! And it had nothing to do with the souvenir shops. That means nothing.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,956 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Thanks for that poignant story Musician. Again and again, I keep hearing stories from people who had religion beaten into and then out of them. It really and truly is tragic. Christianity is primarily about love of God and neighbour but all people seemed to hear about in those days was hellfire and brimstone!

    Where was the talk of God's love and mercy. His personal love for each and every one of us. The Love that Christ showed by dying on the cross for us and giving Himself entirely to us in Holy Communion and being a merciful God when He forgives our sins in confession, giving us grace to avoid self-destructive sin and restoring us to spiritual health.

    Having said that, I don't want to diminish the enormity of sin because it rejects the ultimate good. But back in Ireland in the 50s/60s, there was way too much emphasis on sin and hell (realities which we ignore at our peril).

    Did they ever talk about Jesus' incredible love for us? Did they speak about How His Sacred Heart burns with Love for us? Did they say how Jesus wants nothing more than to forgive the sinner and bestow His amazing grace which makes us like God and make the angels envious of us? People don't realize the dignity of the children of God!

    EDIT; As Jesus said himself, He came not to condemn but to save!

    I do remember bits and pieces about Jesus' love for us and so on but theres little evidence of it in life. Theres plenty of evidence of human love and regardless of where a human being may claim their love comes from I believe it comes from within themselves. I would hate to think humanities capacity for love and compassion could not exist without God. Too much hate out there anyway these days unfortunately in the name of various deities most of the time.

    I'm always thankful for our science teacher back in secondary school. There was a chapter on reproduction and once we read it he sat on his desk facing us and said "right lads I'll regret this but ask whatever you like". You can be sure he did regret it but fair play to him. He didn't have to do it. Religion wouldn't cover that dirty subject.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    musician wrote: »
    I do remember bits and pieces about Jesus' love for us and so on but theres little evidence of it in life.
    I'm convinced that people don't feel the love of God in their lives because they put up barriers to His grace. From personal experience, I know that I "feel" God's presence and grace when I do my utmost to do His will.
    musician wrote: »
    Theres plenty of evidence of human love and regardless of where a human being may claim their love comes from I believe it comes from within themselves. I would hate to think humanities capacity for love and compassion could not exist without God.
    Scripture says that all good (grace) comes from God and that only God is good. We become good only through God's grace. You see God doesn't want us to become independent of Him. If we were good of our own nature, we would forget about our Creator and live as if He didn't exist. It similar to people who are materially comfortable, they forget they need God. But God in His wisdom often upsets our comfort so we'll come back to Him.
    musician wrote: »
    Too much hate out there anyway these days unfortunately in the name of various deities most of the time.
    Not God's fault though. God help people who do unjust violence in God's name.
    musician wrote: »
    I'm always thankful for our science teacher back in secondary school. There was a chapter on reproduction and once we read it he sat on his desk facing us and said "right lads I'll regret this but ask whatever you like". You can be sure he did regret it but fair play to him. He didn't have to do it. Religion wouldn't cover that dirty subject.
    Sex as God planned it is anything but dirty. But it's one of the most abused gifts in the world.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,956 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Scripture says that all good (grace) comes from God and that only God is good. We become good only through God's grace. You see God doesn't want us to become independent of Him. If we were good of our own nature, we would forget about our Creator and live as if He didn't exist. It similar to people who are materially comfortable, they forget they need God. But God in His wisdom often upsets our comfort so we'll come back to Him.

    The Lord of the Rings says that the only way to be rid of evil is to throw the One True Ring in the fires of Mount Doom. Once we do this we will all find the goodness in the world once again. Gandalf in his wisdom will show us the way. We must not be tempted by the ring.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Scripture says that all good (grace) comes from God and that only God is good. We become good only through God's grace. You see God doesn't want us to become independent of Him. If we were good of our own nature, we would forget about our Creator and live as if He didn't exist. It similar to people who are materially comfortable, they forget they need God. But God in His wisdom often upsets our comfort so we'll come back to Him.
    You must accept that if someone don't believe your God - or any god - exists, none of that has any relevance on their life. You might believe it does, but your belief has no bearing on the reality.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 9,000 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Christianity isn't about any of those things.
    Is it about evidence? Or isn't about emotional, cultural, political bias?
    Agree with former, disagree with latter.
    Reason alone won't bring you to God. You have to be open to the possibility of something greater than yourself.
    There are many things, people greater than myself.
    God will come to you when you open the door of your heart to Him.
    Without objective evidence, it's just a delusion imo.
    I've also used rational examination and I find nothing in Christianity that's contradicts reason.
    I don't think you have used rational examination. How do you differentiate between reason, sophistry and confabulation?
    But haven't you chosen to believe that God doesn't exist? Wouldn't it be more honest to be agnostic because you can't prove that He doesn't exist?
    Correct. But then comes along the flying tepot and pink unicorn arguments.
    Atheism is just a lack of belief but I find it untenable because of the amount of circumstantial evidence that points to a Creator. There is plenty of evidence if you look that points to God but no evidence whatever for flying teapots etc.
    There's absolutely none.
    If someone really wanted to find God, to find out the answer to the ultimate question of life, why don't they try a bit harder? What about Pascal's wager?
    Pascal's wager isn't a belief, it's a wager.
    Why not read the lives of the saints or talk to a doctor who has witnessed a miracle of talk to an exorcist? It's not rock solid proof but it's very hard to ignore.
    There's no clinical or empiracle evidence. All *evidence* has huge amounts of personal, political, cultural biases.

    Them the facts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    kelly1 wrote:
    Take for instance someone who one minute has a brain tumour and the next has no tumour. It would take quite a leap of imagination to accept that such a thing could happen naturally.

    Cancer does occasionally go into spontaneous remission, it's not that unusual. I don't think it happens quite as dramatically as you're suggesting though.

    Actually, here's a snippet from wikipedia.
    wiki wrote:
    Spontaneous remission occurs normally as an established body mechanism. In those cases in which a spontaneous remission is not expected or normally occurring, medical professionals might attribute such occurrence to rationally explainable influences that lacked observation, or misdiagnosis.
    kelly1 wrote:
    You're assuming it's (hell) a human creation. Are you quite comfortable with that assumption?

    I am actually. I see no reason to think otherwise. It's a truly bizarre idea really.

    And so does religion but far better.

    Whatever you may think about religion doing more for us on a spiritual level (whatever that means), religion has told us nothing useful about the real world. Religion has consistently got it wrong, and been consistently debunked by science. Galileo was persecuted for suggesting that the earth is not at the centre of the universe, but actually revolves around a star which is at the center of our solar system. It's not surprising that he turned out to be right when you consider that he based his assertion on observation and reasoning, his opponents based theirs on what is written down in a very old and very dubious book.


    I assure you I have nothing against science, I quite keen on it. I'm currently reading the Road to Reality by Roger Penrose.

    But does it not trouble you that things you believe are contradicted by science? Do you believe for example that the earth is only a few thousand years old? Many christians do, despite there being stacks of evidence that it's much older. And why is a book that supposedly contains the word of an all-knowing god so riddled with mistakes?


    You surely wouldn't deny that sudden unexplainable cures have occurred, would you? Why on earth would you believe that someday science will find an explanation? That's putting incredible faith in science!

    I have 'faith' in science as you put it, because science has a very good track record when it comes to figuring out how things work. And as I pointed out to you above I'm aware that sudden unexplained (but not unexplainable) cures do occur. I just think it's a bit of a stretch to think that it's the work of a supernatural god. You obviously think that's a perfectly reasonable thing to believe, I think it's highly irrational and basically a wild leap of the imagination. That's where we differ.

    Would that really convince you?? Wouldn't you wait for a scientific explanation? Why does the miracle have to be so dramatic before you believe?

    Well no, of course those things wouldn't convince me at all I was just being silly. But it's telling that these kind of things don't happen. What people ascribe the word miracle to are invariably mundane things that are nothing terribly out of the ordinary. Like if someone goes into cancer remission it's seen as a miracle becuase that must be such an incredible thing right? Very rare, right? Not so. Happens more than people realise.

    Now an amputee mysteriously restored to his former limbed glory still mightn't convince me that god was at work, but it would sure carry some wow factor if god really wanted to show off!


    You want God to submit to you and prove Himself to you? You'll be waiting!

    Indeed I will. He's exceptionally good at the old hide and seek this god of yours!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Take for instance someone who one minute has a brain tumour and the next has no tumour. It would take quite a leap of imagination to accept that such a thing could happen naturally.
    Just following up on aidan's comment, according to figures derived from Victorian sanitoria (when cancer was a recognized disease, thought to be contagious, and before any treatments were tried) spontaneous remission rates for cancer were of the order of a few percent, depending on the type of cancer.

    Don't you think it rather cheapens the idea of religious faith to ascribe to it things for which it is not responsible?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    robindch wrote: »
    Just following up on aidan's comment, according to figures derived from Victorian sanitoria (when cancer was a recognized disease, thought to be contagious, and before any treatments were tried) spontaneous remission rates for cancer were of the order of a few percent, depending on the type of cancer.

    Don't you think it rather cheapens the idea of religious faith to ascribe to it things for which it is not responsible?

    I think it's important to distinguish between cures that can be explained by medicine and the body's ability to defend and repair itself and cures that can not be explained at all.

    e.g. some who one minute is confined to a wheelchair and next minute can walk and where it can be scientifically be shown that a sudden physical and lasting change occurred.

    Otherwise it's hardly miraculous is it?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    kelly1 wrote: »
    e.g. some who one minute is confined to a wheelchair and next minute can walk and where it can be scientifically be shown that a sudden physical and lasting change occurred.
    Or perhaps a regenerated limb!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I think it's important to distinguish between cures that can be explained by medicine and the body's ability to defend and repair itself and cures that can not be explained at all.


    Kelly1, just as people who are young and healthy sometimes fall gravely ill and die for no good reason, so to do some people who are gravely ill suddenly recover for no good reason. We don't know why. But if you don't believe the former is a miracle, why should the latter be any different?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I think it's important to distinguish between cures that can be explained by medicine and the body's ability to defend and repair itself and cures that can not be explained at all.

    e.g. some who one minute is confined to a wheelchair and next minute can walk and where it can be scientifically be shown that a sudden physical and lasting change occurred.

    Otherwise it's hardly miraculous is it?


    What makes you think there's any such thing as a cure that cannot be explained at all? How do you know that it's not some underlying mechanism not fully understood yet? That the doctor didn't make a mistake? That there wasn't some important factor overlooked by the doctors and the patient himself? These are all alot more plausible explanations than invoking a supernatural god. Can't you see that, or have you simply closed off your mind to anything that doesn't sit comfortably with your worldview? It's ok to change your mind about certain things, miracles not being real doesn't invalidate the concept of god or religion, it merely invalidates miracles.

    edit: didn't mean to put that little frown emoticon at the top, don't know how that got there. maybe it's a miracle and god is trying to tell me something!! :-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    aidan24326 wrote: »
    These are all alot more plausible explanations than invoking a supernatural god. Can't you see that, or have you simply closed off your mind to anything that doesn't sit comfortably with your worldview?
    That's a bit rich! Haven't you closed your mind to the possibility that there is a supernatural explanation. Why do you stubbornly resist this possibility? I don't really feel that I need proof that God exists but I have spoken with one woman who blessed a man with an incurable brain tumour with a relic of St. Dominic and he was cured inexplicably.

    Why not read this Irish book about Padre Pio's miracles?:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_/026-2821839-6064410?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=colm+keane+padre+pio&x=12&y=21

    If you call the Irish Padre Pio office they'll tell you that miracles happen all the time following blessings with Padre Pio's glove. (http://www.padrepio.ie/)
    aidan24326 wrote: »
    edit: didn't mean to put that little frown emoticon at the top, don't know how that got there. maybe it's a miracle and god is trying to tell me something!! :-)
    Yes, maybe :)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    kelly1 wrote: »
    If you call the Irish Padre Pio office they'll tell you that miracles happen all the time following blessings with Padre Pio's glove.
    Yeah, a couple of years back, a close family member woke up after an op on a spinal tumor to find another family member waving this very object over him. When we heard his miraculous reaction -- near-coma to spluttering incredulity in under 30 seconds -- we knew he was going to be ok :)


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    aidan24326 wrote: »
    edit: didn't mean to put that little frown emoticon at the top, don't know how that got there. maybe it's a miracle and god is trying to tell me something!! :-)
    More likely your mouse is trying to tell you something -- edit your post and take a look at the box of 14 icons under the message edit box. Set the 'post icon' to be 'no icon' and the irritable face will disappear.


Advertisement