Would you like to see a united Ireland?

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I took a little trip up to Bushmills and the Giants causeay the other week. In those few days i think I saw more Union flags than I have seen in 35 years living in England:eek: i would ask what could we do with them, but I'm too afraid you would offer a suggestion

Old time warp bigiotry village, stuck in the 16th century, just last week the Unionist members on the local council, Limavady rejected an SDLP proposal to give the freedom of the borough to a local protestant clergy man. who wait for it 25 years ago shook the hand of a R C priest and wished him a happy Christmas, for this deed the Rev gentleman was threatened with murder by loyalist paramilitary's and banished to, the South of Ireland,
leaves a nice taste in your mouth FF,

Fratton Fred

TOMASJ wrote: »

Old time warp bigiotry village, stuck in the 16th century, just last week the Unionist members on the local council, Limavady rejected an SDLP proposal to give the freedom of the borough to a local protestant clergy man. who wait for it 25 years ago shook the hand of a R C priest and wished him a happy Christmas, for this deed the Rev gentleman was threatened with murder by loyalist paramilitary's and banished to, the South of Ireland,
leaves a nice taste in your mouth FF,

You obviously take you religion as seriously as I do. I am good friends with an Anglican Rector who cut his teeth in Belfast 25 years ago. He can give you as many instances of bigotry as you want. I don;t think the fact that there is bigotry up there is news to anyone.

Incidentally, what's a Protestant?

TOMASJ

You have stated that it doesn't matter whether or not they have a mandate. This is the same reductionist argument that Mayo Exile tried to make, in order to equate the actions of the British Army with those of the IRA. If you don't believe a mandate from a democratically-elected government makes it OK to carry out acts of violence under certain circumstances, then you don't believe that states should have armies. Is this what you believe? Or do you believe that anyone should be allowed to kill anyone at any time, for whatever reason suits them?

Straight answer, now

Can I just ask you why this mandate the british army has from its democratically-elected government was not used to uphold the wishes of the people of Hong Kong who we all know overwhelming wanted to to remain british,Im sure the old excuse that there was a lease on Hong Kong will be used, but in a small country like Ireland the steam roller would have been the order of the day,
a bit ok cowardice maybe

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Incidentally, what's a Protestant?

They are monsters who eat live Catholic babies but don't worry it all evens out because Catholics eat live Protestant babies. So I heard.

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You obviously take you religion as seriously as I do. I am good friends with an Anglican Rector who cut his teeth in Belfast 25 years ago. He can give you as many instances of bigotry as you want. I don;t think the fact that there is bigotry up there is news to anyone.

Incidentally, what's a Protestant

Dont have any religion Fred, just pointing out how things have moved on in certain parts of the six countys,

oscarBravo

TOMASJ wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote: »

Can you tell me how when operating within the rules of engagement included the murdering of a young 15 year old boy in a incident in Dunloy Co Derry

Can you tell me where I said it did?

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by oscarBravo: I've described that bombing campaign as an inexcusable act of mass murder.

oscarBravo, since you are quite comfortable enough stating when the British armed forces either have or have not exceeded their mandate, perhaps then you might withdraw the above description of the RAF policy of area bombing of German cities during WWII when you state the following:

I will happily defend the actions of the British armed forces when they have operated within their mandate.

TOMASJ

oscarBravo wrote: »

TOMASJ wrote: »

Can you tell me where I said it did?

So do you agree that when the SAS shoot a young school boy, they are scumbags terrorists, common mugger, psychopath, cold-blooded murder, to use a few of the favourite terms used by the anti republican posters on the board,

oscarBravo

Mayo Exile wrote: »

oscarBravo, since you are quite comfortable enough stating when the British armed forces either have or have not exceeded their mandate, perhaps then you will withdraw the above description of the RAF policy of area bombing of German cities during WWII?

Nope. I didn't give them their mandate, and I don't claim to always agree with their mandate. That doesn't change the fact that they have a mandate, and that that makes them different from the IRA.

It amazes me how hard some people will work to try to legitimise the actions of the IRA. The British Army are no angels. They have done many things they should be ashamed of. But they have an intrinsic legitimacy, by the simple fact of being the armed forces of a sovereign state. No amount of sophistry or whataboutery will ever lend that legitimacy to the IRA.

oscarBravo

TOMASJ wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote: »

So do you agree that when the SAS shoot a young school they are scumbags terrorists, common mugger, psychopath, cold-blooded murder, to use a few of the favourite terms used by the anti republican posters on the board,

What's a young school?

TOMASJ

oscarBravo wrote: »

TOMASJ wrote: »

What's a young school

Fixed that for you, now you can reply

GuanYin

I've recently befriended a former SAS soldier here in the US. I must say, his take on the North of Ireland is a perspective I hadn't heard before. He was later deployed to Afghanistan and is very quick to say that out of the two Northern Ireland was a far worse experience.

Apart from his obvious upset at the loss of close colleagues, he said the experience left him with little respect for Catholic or Protestant factions and in particular he despised the Royal Ulster Constabulary. He admits there were mistakes made, but felt that given that the Army were walking targets (he readily points out that he could never have worn military uniforms while travelling in public as our US armed forces do) there was a siege mentality among troops that can't easily be explained to anyone who hasn't been in the situation.

From a neutral point of view, history can point out that despite the obvious incidents of sectarianism, the British Army presence in the North is surely the only reason the peace process came about. Over 750 British military deaths and 6000 or more injuries is more than any force engaging in public order roles should expect so I would say that the paramilitary forces for in no we blameless for the "troubles" in the North of Ireland.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote: »

They are monsters who eat live Catholic babies but don't worry it all evens out because Catholics eat live Protestant babies. So I heard.

Actually, we eat our own, well the first born anyway:D

It really surprised me how many people in Ireland are quite ignorant about "Protestants" or should I say Blacks I have been asked "Do you take Communion"?, "Do you baptise your children" and even if a marriage in a Church of Ireland Church is a recognised marriage:D

Not sure about the other proddies, but Anglican's say the Nicene Creed, the opening sentence of the last paragraph is "And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church" (Notice the small "c" in catholic). The difference between the two churches is miniscule, except of course we don't sacrifice virgins on the alter like Catholics do:D

OH, the head of the Anglican Church (Well, the first amongst equals as he is described) recognises Catholicism as a "Proper" faith as well.:rolleyes:

TOMASJ wrote: »

Dont have any religion Fred, just pointing out how things have moved on in certain parts of the six countys,

I thought that may be the case, I was just wanting to point out that a lot of people who get upset by this sort of thing don't actually follow anysort of religion.

I like Darah O'Breen's quote, which goes something like, "I'm not religious, I don't need a god in my life and I never go to Church...but I think like a Catholic.

Sorry, not picking on Catholics, I just thought that was a good quote.

Its late, I'm rambling, sorry:D

TOMASJ

It amazes me how hard some people will work to try to legitimise the actions of the IRA.

I think we could apply that coment to some posters on the board, who have a blinkered view of what the british army murder squads really got up to in the occupied six counties.

Fratton Fred

TOMASJ wrote: »

I think we could apply that coment to some posters on the board, who have a blinkered view of what the british army murder squads really got up to in the occupied six counties.

tell us then

Fratton Fred

GuanYin wrote: »

I've recently befriended a former SAS soldier here in the US. I must say, his take on the North of Ireland is a perspective I hadn't heard before. He was later deployed to Afghanistan and is very quick to say that out of the two Northern Ireland was a far worse experience.

Apart from his obvious upset at the loss of close colleagues, he said the experience left him with little respect for Catholic or Protestant factions and in particular he despised the Royal Ulster Constabulary. He admits there were mistakes made, but felt that given that the Army were walking targets (he readily points out that he could never have worn military uniforms while travelling in public as our US armed forces do) there was a siege mentality among troops that can't easily be explained to anyone who hasn't been in the situation.

That's kind of what I was getting at in post 348. I have had several friends who have been to NI, in particular two friends who were cousins and both in the Royal Hampshires.

Their view was pretty much that one minute you are being fired at by one lot, then the next day you are protecting those same people's kids from a bunch of snarling animals who are throwing bricks at you because they don't want 5 year old girls walking through their estate on the way to school.

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

tell us then

Where would you like me to start,

Fratton Fred

TOMASJ wrote: »

Where would you like me to start,

by using quotes properly;)

examples of these death squads. I'm not talking about the UVF, I mean the British Army that were sent to NI. I'd also like to hear some of these tales about the SAS as well. Now, pandering to the Republicans for a minute, lets suppose it was a war, so we can ignore the deaths of any members of Paramilitary organisations.

Mayo Exile

With respect this is complete bull oscarBravo. Once again these are your words:

I will happily defend the actions of the British armed forces when they have operated within their mandate.

Read Niall Ferguson's "War of the World" (pb edition), page 559.

He quotes Churchill saying the following:

"As he put it on October 30 (1940), the civilian population around the target areas must made to feel the weight of war". Ferguson further goes on to state that "throughout 1941 Churchill repeatedly emphasised the need for Bomber Command to target the morale of ordinary Germans. The strategy of 'area bombing' - the aim of which was to incinerate urban centres - was in place even before Air Marshal Arthur 'Bomber' Harris took over Bomber Command.

Since Churchill was Prime Minister and head of the British Government at this time, there is no doubt whatsoever that this was the mandate the RAF operated within. Are you actually trying to tell me, that after saying this:

I will happily defend the actions of the British armed forces when they have operated within their mandate.

that you can go on to say this:

Nope. I didn't give them their mandate, and I don't claim to always agree with their mandate. That doesn't change the fact that they have a mandate, and that that makes them different from the IRA.

Fratton Fred

Mayo Exile wrote: »

With respect this is complete bull oscarBravo. Once again these are your words:



Read Niall Ferguson's "War of the World" (pb edition), page 559.

He quotes Churchill saying the following:



Since Churchill was Prime Minister and head of the British Government at this time, there is no doubt whatsoever that this was the mandate the RAF operated within. Are you actually trying to tell me, that after saying this:



that you can go on to say this:

now I understand.

Pubs were bombed because of Dresden:rolleyes:

TOMASJ

examples of these death squads. I'm not talking about the UVF, I mean the British Army that were sent to NI. I'd also like to hear some of these tales about the SAS as well

You must not have been paying attention Fred,I have already posted about the Miami showband incident, That included SAS UDR UVF brothers in arms.

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

now I understand.

Pubs were bombed because of Dresden

Try and keep up with the posts fred

Mayo Exile

now I understand.

Pubs were bombed because of Dresden

Don't be a smarta@#e FF. Will I crack similar similar jokes about Birmingham?

GuanYin

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Don't be a smarta@#e FF. Will I crack similar similar jokes about Birmingham?

Keep it civil.

FF has a point, I don't see the connection.

Mayo Exile

Rejected. I was challenging oscarBravo about whether he supported ALL British armed forces actions when acting under a mandate. FF made, what was in my opinion, a pointless crack about Dresden. Are you and him aware of what happened to that city?

GuanYin

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Rejected.

Excuse me?

I wasn't requesting, I was telling you.

I was challenging oscarBravo about whether he supported ALL British armed forces actions when acting under a mandate. FF made, what was in my opinion, a pointless crack about Dresden. Are you and him aware of what happened to that city?

I don't quite understand how you compare British actions in a time of war against an evil empire in WWII with British soldiers deployed in counter-terrorism and public order duties in the North.

Do you equate the IRA with the Nazis? That seems harsh.

Mayo Exile

You too it seems are missing what I said. oscarBravo said he would happily defend the actions of the British armed forces when acting under a mandate.

Further back, he described RAF area bombing policy as "an inexcusable act of mass murder". I have challenged him with evidence quoted from a well known Historian, that this too was mandated under British government policy.

A mandate IS a mandate, it doesn't matter where OR when.

GuanYin

Mayo Exile wrote: »

You too it seems are missing what I said. oscarBravo said he would happily defend the actions of the British armed forces when acting under a mandate.

Further back, he described RAF area bombing policy as "an inexcusable act of mass murder". I have challenged him with evidence quoted from a well known Historian, that this too was mandated under British government policy.

A mandate IS a mandate, it doesn't matter where OR when.

What has that to do with the topic? Dresden air bombings were bad therefore all British army mandates are bad?

If you want to engage in pedantry and one-upmanship, do it somewhere else.

(again, that isn't a request).

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

in particular two friends who were cousins and both in the Royal Hampshires.

Their view was pretty much that one minute you are being fired at by one lot, then the next day you are protecting those same people's kids from a bunch of snarling animals who are throwing bricks at you because they don't want 5 year old girls walking through their estate on the way to school

Fred I think if you check your dates,
you will find there was no republican activity of any type in that area on your friends in the Royal Hampshires,
as a ceasefire was in affect for several years previous,
A bit of honesty about the situations at the time of that diabolical incident would be appreciated.

Mayo Exile

Really? Is it "pedantic", to say about what war and conflict actually does to people in the real world?