Would you like to see a united Ireland?

Sand

But murdering gardaí is OK?

Nah Oscar, mistakes were made, and Erin Go Brath ...regrets them....but the boys hearts were in the right place when they planted those bombs in Warrington for example. And when they kidnapped a mans family to force him to act as a suicide bomber. And .....so on and so on. I mean, apart from all those mistakes...everything else was ok.

And anyway, those fookers had it coming to them!!!! And whatabout...

people have a good rant and then proceed to sit on their fat sod@ing a@se, fold their arms and feel superior and smug about themselves

Youve seen a Sinn Fein terrorist turned politician in full on martyrdom mode lecturing people on crime and the need for transparency, have you?

Sand

I could go on about "dirty little wars" of the Br...., RU..., UV....., UD..., Red Ha....., LV.......etc etc etc. The thread seems to be turning into a version of noughts and crosses. YOU CAN'T WIN THAT GAME!!!!!!!

Ill happily join you in equating the Provos with the loyalist terrorist groups. Gerry Adams afterall is no better than the Shankill Butchers, other than he picks up a government cheque these days.

I mean, you do agree the Provos are no better than the loyalist murdering scum - dont you?

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Fred, we are very different animals. I for one could never justify or excuse an attack on another smaller and weaker nation nor would i try to put it into 'context'. Whats morally wrong is morally wrong. I strongly believe in every nations right to self-determination unhindered by larger powers who may have vested interests.

The actions of the IRA throughout the troubles were a reaction to the institutionalised sectarianism, gerrymandering and discriminiation against the nationalist community in the 6 county statelet. Its regrettable and unfortunate but if you kick a group of people and try to keep them down, a backlash is inevitable.

I actually can't believe you have come out with that. One minute you condemn attacking a country, then condone killing innocent people?

You are right, we are very different people.

LordSutch

Mayo Exile wrote: »

These shallow one sided selective condemnations where people have a good rant and then proceed to sit on their fat sod@ing a@se, fold their arms and feel superior and smug about themselves is making this thread very boring................

I could go on about "dirty little wars" of the Br...., RU..., UV....., UD..., Red Ha....., LV.......etc etc etc. The thread seems to be turning into a version of noughts and crosses. YOU CAN'T WIN THAT GAME!!!!!!!

I responded to a post which excused the IRA for their actions over thirty five years

So if you 'mayo' wish to make a cogent contribution to this thread, then may I suggest that YOU start by reading some of my previous posts on this Topic, & then you might find that my thoughts & arguments are quite accommodating - indepth & not at all smug (post#59 for example) albeit from a unionist point of view.

I am not one to rant & then sit on my fat arse, but I do Not like IRA sympathisers gloryfying the actions of said Terrorist organisation, and anytime I see an attempt to excuse their murderous actions I will comment!

And rightfully so .............

TOMASJ

I would love to see a united Ireland, or Ireland united, the majority in seven Ulster county's and in four of the occupied six, county's, want unity,
I think it will happen sooner than some people on these boards would like to portray

djpbarry

TOMASJ wrote: »

...the majority in seven Ulster county's and in four of the occupied six, county's, want unity...

Really? Based on what?

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by Sand: mistakes were made, and Erin Go Brath ...regrets them....but the boys hearts were in the right place when they planted those bombs in Warrington for example. And when they kidnapped a mans family to force him to act as a suicide bomber. And .....so on and so on. I mean, apart from all those mistakes...everything else was ok.

Have you a problem with Republicans/Nationalists etc. coming on here actually admitting that the IRA made mistakes in the past, and that you feel fit to reply to with sarcasm and very little logic? What say, if an American F-16 drops a stick of bombs on a target in Iraq or Afghanistan, two hit the target, but the other two wipe out a house with an innocent family inside? Do you say "its a mistake", change the channel think no more about it?

Originally posted by Sand: Sinn Fein terrorist

What's a Sinn Fein terrorist?

Originally posted by Sand: turned politician

Are you shocked by this? Hardly unique. It's happened elsewhere in the world you know!

Originally posted by Sand: Gerry Adams afterall is no better than the Shankill Butchers

Really? Have you evidence that he killed people, or to be more descriptive, he chopped up his victims with knives?

Originally posted by Sand: Ill happily join you in equating the Provos with the loyalist terrorist groups.

Fair enough. Some neutrality here. Alot of people might say Loyalist paramilitary groups. (It's their opinion - I respect it!).

Originally posted by Sand: I mean, you do agree the Provos are no better than the loyalist murdering scum - dont you?

I don't agree with merely scratching the surface and then making statements that look like cast iron fact. WHY did the IRA, UVF, etc. did what they did?

Camelot: I fully apologise if I offended you with the tone of my reply. To explain the post more fully: You responded to Erin Go Brath, who, I believe, gave analysis on why the IRA did what it did. You responded (fully entitled to of course) with what I thought was a reply that didn't directly answer him. P.S. I HAVE read your earlier posts. Hopefully you read my earlier (cogent?) contributions too.

TOMASJ

djpbarry wrote: »

Really? Based on what?

Votes, work it out for yourself

guinnessdrinker

Sand wrote: »

If by "Ok" you mean better than any realistic alternative then yeah, it was ok.

You might think it was ok but the partitioning of the country failed to solve anything.

Sand

What's a Sinn Fein terrorist? ..... Really? Have you evidence that he killed people, or to be more descriptive, he chopped up his victims with knives? ..... Actually not. Convince me that they are, but without your emotive language.

Ah, you see I thought when you complained about....

These shallow one sided selective condemnations

I thought you were complaining about condemnation of the Provos as scumbag terrorists alone. Now I understand you were complaining about condemnation of your favoured scumbag terrorist team. Carry on.

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by Sand: I thought you were complaining about condemnation of the Provos as scumbag terrorists alone. Now I understand you were complaining about condemnation of your favoured scumbag terrorist team. Carry on.

Thanks Sand! Are you capable of objectively based responses? If you removed your emotive crap, your responses might be worth something.

Can you reply to what I asked you about Gerry Adams vs the Shankill Butchers? If not, say its your opinion (which you can have).

Erin Go Brath

oscarBravo wrote: »

But murdering gardaí is OK?

Who said murdering gardaí is ok? I for one am against murdering anyone under any circumstances. Let me be CLEAR about this.

Camelot wrote: »

What a total load of old hogwash

You have the cheek to say that the murdering actions of the IRA throughout the Troubles were reactionary!

YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS :mad:

The Provisional IRA waged their dirty little 'War' against the good people of Northern Ireland & anybody else who got in their way (including the Gardai), I cannot believe the audacity of the brainwashed followers of the Provo/ Sinn Fein movement when they claim that 'Ah sure we were only reacting' to the secterianism & sure dats why we planted da Bombs !!!

My blood boils reading any kind of excuse for what the IRA actually did to people.

Camelot i am perfectly serious here. The actions of the IRA were reactionary. Cause and effect. Sectarian discrimination, gerrymandering, state sponsored collusion with loyalist terrorists were all hallmarks of society in the 6 counties in the past few decades. The Provisional IRAs operations were a reaction to that situation. I'm certainly not saying i agree with many of their actions, but you need to look at what forced these men into doing the actions they have done. Any analysis needs to scratch the surface further than a knee jerk anti-ra response to everything.

Sand wrote: »

Nah Oscar, mistakes were made, and Erin Go Brath ...regrets them....but the boys hearts were in the right place when they planted those bombs in Warrington for example. And when they kidnapped a mans family to force him to act as a suicide bomber. And .....so on and so on. I mean, apart from all those mistakes...everything else was ok.

And anyway, those fookers had it coming to them!!!! And whatabout...

I believe it was Friedrich Nietzsche who said "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." The Provisional Republican Movement had moral right on their side fighting against the enemy, but some within lowered themselves to the levels of the enemy and lost some of the moral right by doing so. I condemn, always have and always will people who unnecessarily took a life of another person.

Sand wrote: »

Youve seen a Sinn Fein terrorist turned politician in full on martyrdom mode lecturing people on crime and the need for transparency, have you?

There is a political way forward to include all at the moment, such wasn't the case previous. The Government in the 6 Counties was a Protestant State for a Protestant people with inbuilt discrimination, and people from the Nationalist/Catholic community were left out in the cold as 2nd class citizens.

Sand wrote: »

Ill happily join you in equating the Provos with the loyalist terrorist groups. Gerry Adams afterall is no better than the Shankill Butchers, other than he picks up a government cheque these days.

I mean, you do agree the Provos are no better than the loyalist murdering scum - dont you?

Equating Gerry Adams the man who played a major role in the peace process with the Shankill Butchers just shows either how little knowledge
you have on the subject, or else is an emotive knee-jerk anti-SF reacton which is quite frankly at odds with reality.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I actually can't believe you have come out with that. One minute you condemn attacking a country, then condone killing innocent people?

You are right, we are very different people.

For the umpteenth time i D'ONT condone the killing of innocent people. Comparing the IRAs fight for freedom and equality with Imperialist Britains war on other countries is not comparing like with like.

LordSutch

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Camelot i am perfectly serious here. The actions of the IRA were reactionary. Cause and effect. Sectarian discrimination, gerrymandering, state sponsored collusion with loyalist terrorists were all hallmarks of society in the 6 counties in the past few decades. The Provisional IRAs operations were a reaction to that situation. I'm certainly not saying i agree with many of their actions, but you need to look at what forced these men into doing the actions they have done. Any analysis needs to scratch the surface further than a knee jerk anti-ra response to everything.

I disagree with you 100% & my reasons (although obvious to most normal law abiding thinking people) are all presented in previous posts along with posts from other posters who agree that the actions of the IRA were abhorant and morally illegal, and if you do scratch the surface you will find Republican Rhetoric backed up by some vacuous notion of a 'United Ireland' no doubt devoid of Unionists, or including Unionists who have 'Morphed' into Nationalists :rolleyes:

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I believe it was Friedrich Nietzsche who said "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." The Provisional Republican Movement had moral right on their side fighting against the enemy, but some within lowered themselves to the levels of the enemy and lost some of the moral right by doing so. I condemn, always have and always will people who unnecessarily took a life of another person.

Dear oh dear, you really do have a skewed & poisoned view of the subject - you are an "IRA supporter"

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

There is a political way forward to include all at the moment, such wasn't the case previous. The Government in the 6 Counties was a Protestant State for a Protestant people with inbuilt discrimination, and people from the Nationalist/Catholic community were left out in the cold as 2nd class citizens.

Ergo - start planting Bombs in Pubs, Plant Bombs in Shopping Centres, start Shooting Policemen, target Remembrance day parades . . . make as many Bombs as you can, blow as many Brits (Unionists) to pieces as you like, and everything will be alright, & you will not be "in the cold anymore"

Apart from the many who died in the IRA's little campaign, do you have any idea or understanding how many walking wounded there are because of "your" freedom fighters? - I actually know of an ex Policeman from the North who is now in a wheelchair minus two legs & one arm - thanks to your freedom fighting heroes :mad:

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

For the umpteenth time i D'ONT condone the killing of innocent people. Comparing the IRAs fight for freedom and equality with Imperialist Britains war on other countries is not comparing like with like.

What fight for freedom

To the rest of us, it seemed like a dirty little Terrorist War which did nothing to break the North away from the Union, in actual fact it polarised society that any chance of an "Irish Union" is further away than ever.

Were the Bombs & bullets really meant to make Unionists Love Republicans ?

oscarBravo

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Who said murdering gardaí is ok? I for one am against murdering anyone under any circumstances. Let me be CLEAR about this.

Can you take the logical next step, and distance yourself from a political party that effectively condones the cold-blooded murder of Det Gda Gerry McCabe?

djpbarry

Mayo Exile wrote: »

What say, if an American F-16 drops a stick of bombs on a target in Iraq or Afghanistan, two hit the target, but the other two wipe out a house with an innocent family inside? Do you say "its a mistake", change the channel think no more about it?

Isn't that the term the IRA would use if, say, kids were blown up by bombs they planted in shopping centres?

Mayo Exile wrote: »

What's a Sinn Fein terrorist?

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2007/05/08/mcguinness-martin-cp-12085972.jpg

Mayo Exile wrote: »

WHY did the IRA, UVF, etc. did what they did?

Because they're all a bunch of murdering, bigoted scumbags?

TOMASJ wrote: »

Votes, work it out for yourself

As has already been explained on this thread, a vote for Sinn Fein is not necessarily a vote for a united Ireland. In the same way, a vote for the Green Party is not necessarily a vote for 'John Gormley for Taoiseach'.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

The actions of the IRA were reactionary.

So, when the IRA blew people up in shopping centres, what was that a "reaction" to?

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

The Provisional Republican Movement had moral right on their side fighting against the enemy...

Un-****ing-believable.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I condemn, always have and always will people who unnecessarily took a life of another person.

How many of the murders committed by the IRA were necessary? Could you list some names?

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

For the umpteenth time i D'ONT condone the killing of innocent people.

So the IRA's bombing of shopping centres was totally and utterly wrong, right?

TOMASJ

As has already been explained on this thread, a vote for Sinn Fein is not necessarily a vote for a united Ireland. In the same way, a vote for the Green Party is not necessarily a vote for 'John Gormley for Taoiseach'.

And what brain box worked that out. could we then assume that votes for the DUP UUP ect are not to remain british.

How many of the murders committed by the IRA were necessary? Could you list some names

Any member of the occupying brit armed forces to use an old favourite term here (bigoted scumbags) the potraied hero (Nairac) comes to mind.;)

Sand

You might think it was ok but the partitioning of the country failed to solve anything.

Better option than all out war on this island.

Erin...

For the umpteenth time i D'ONT condone the killing of innocent people.

But you condone the Provo campaign which was practically entirely the killing of innocent people.

Really, I and medical science would be fascinated how you manage to square away the condemnation of the killing of innocent AND support for a campaign of terrorist atrocities....

Equating Gerry Adams the man who played a major role in the peace process with the Shankill Butchers just shows either how little knowledge
you have on the subject, or else is an emotive knee-jerk anti-SF reacton which is quite frankly at odds with reality.

Is it? Maybe the only difference between Adams and those other monsters was that Adams lived long enough to start seeing the attraction of other forms of power. Maybe if Lenny Murphy was alive today youd be praising him as the great peacemaker?

Thanks though for confirming that when Provos complain about selective criticism of the Provos, what the really mean is any criticism of the Provos.

Mayo Exile

Thanks Sand! Are you capable of objectively based responses? If you removed your emotive crap, your responses might be worth something.

Mayo, I tend to post what I think. When I think some group are scumbag terrorists I dont call them "freedom fighters". As for "emotive crap", have you read your own posts?

Can you reply to what I asked you about Gerry Adams vs the Shankill Butchers? If not, say its your opinion (which you can have).

Really? Have you evidence that he killed people, or to be more descriptive, he chopped up his victims with knives?

Like any successful crime lord, Adams would make sure he was never the one who did the actual dirty work. Im not sure how many Provo victims were cut up with knives - I mean, the Shankill Butchers could only envy the handiwork of the Provos who cut up Robert McCartney, let alone the countless others maimed and broken in Provo punishment beatings. How many others scarred and burned alive in Provo bombings ordered by Adams? How many others shot? Abducted and tortured like Jean McConville [ You regret her death by the way Erin? Or like Provos like Big Mac do you reckon she had it coming?] before being buried in an unmarked grave, with so little cermony her murderers couldnt even recall where it was.

By the way - can you point out where Lenny Murphy was ever convicted of a single murder?

Mayo Exile

My "F-16" scenario illustrates a planned operation with the consequences of what can happen if something goes wrong, hence use of the term, mistake. If the U.S Air Force releases a statement to this effect, I'll accept it.

Originally posted by djpbarry: Isn't that the term the IRA would use if, say, kids were blown up by bombs they planted in shopping centres?

If by this, you mean the IRA were after the shopping centre in their operation, and kids were killed as a consequence, isn't this a mistake too? and if the IRA issues a statement to this effect, would you accept it? Indeed, what if once again say, the U.S. Air Force is after another target (Chemical Ali?), say, in a bunker in the middle of Baghdad and a JDAM/Smart Bomb or whatever, malfunctions and wipes out a shopping centre nearby, killing loads of people etc. isn't that also a mistake?

Originally posted by djp barry: http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/ph...p-12085972.jpg

With respect, not what i'm after. Looking for a definition.............

Originally posted by djp barry: Because they're all a bunch of murdering, bigoted scumbags?

Throw a bit of flesh on the bones there? Why they appeared in the first place? Reasons for longevity etc?

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by Sand: scumbag terrorists

freedom fighters

Give me a definition and differences of the two.

emotive crap

It's merely a criticism. Don't you like it? Whatever style you post in, it is your right to do so.

Mayo, I tend to post what I think.

Ok. But you don't then expect reactions to what you post? Whatever they might be.............. .

have you read your own posts?

At least have some manners and respect for other posters. Your subtle attempts at ridicule do you no good...........

Like any successful crime lord, Adams would make sure he was never the one who did the actual dirty work.

All I'm asking for is evidence...................

can you point out where Lenny Murphy was ever convicted of a single murder

You can't since the courts were unable to convict him. Martin Dillon's book on the subject is pretty comprehensive.

Otacon

Mayo Exile wrote: »

If by this, you mean the IRA were after the shopping centre in their operation, and kids were killed as a consequence, isn't this a mistake too? and if the IRA issues a statement to this effect, would you accept it?

If they turned themselves in for their crimes, instead of hiding behind the Good Friday Agreement (read Gerry McCabe's murder)... maybe, just maybe they would not be seen as self-serving terrorists and murderers... maybe.

tv3

A united ireland haha..i duno about that.Like people have to remember the cathoilcs that are living in the north of ireland and are surrounded by the brits who seem to think that this is there country!
Maybe in there eyes it is but certainly Not in mine as it is the north of ireland!
The problem is the brits want to have a bit of land everywere..Thats probably why they are hated by so many around the world!:D

TOMASJ

Otacon wrote: »

If they turned themselves in for their crimes, instead of hiding behind the Good Friday Agreement (read Gerry McCabe's murder)... maybe, just maybe they would not be seen as self-serving terrorists and murderers... maybe.

As far as I am aware several people were jailed for the killing of garda Mc Cabe,
If you were to use your logic (turn themselves in) Thatcher and her terrorist murdering scumbag cabinet, would all be still in jail for the crimes they committed in the occupied six counties.

TOMASJ

By the way - can you point out where Lenny Murphy was ever convicted of a single murder

Maybe he was one of them successful crime Lords you are speaking off.

djpbarry

TOMASJ wrote: »

could we then assume that votes for the DUP UUP ect are not to remain british.

You can assume whatever you want; I've already covered this on this thread and I don't like repeating myself.

TOMASJ wrote: »

Any member of the occupying brit armed forces...

:rolleyes: Last time I checked, Nothern Ireland was British and has been for some time.

Mayo Exile wrote: »

If by this, you mean the IRA were after the shopping centre in their operation, and kids were killed as a consequence, isn't this a mistake too?

No, it's murder. Unless you can explain how one can destroy a shopping centre without injuring/killing any of the people therein?

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Throw a bit of flesh on the bones there? Why they appeared in the first place?

They were/are a bunch of scumbags who needed an excuse to kill people; politics was that excuse.

tv3 wrote: »

...people have to remember the cathoilcs that are living in the north of ireland and are surrounded by the brits who seem to think that this is there country!

Eh, it is.

TOMASJ

:rolleyes:

Last time I checked, Nothern Ireland was British and has been for some time.

You should check again, two of the six occupied county in the North of Ireland have an artificial british majority (how things change when your not looking)

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by djp barry: No, it's murder.

So in a conflict situation, there is absolutely no allowances for mistakes then? If IRA bombers blow up a shopping centre because they think its an economic target and kill kids, if that F-16 pilot drops his bombs and some go astray wiping out that house, if a Russian tank gunner lets fly at a Georgian army truck full of soldiers and he misses and hits an apartment block full of people directly behind?

Must they all be perfectionists, and stand trial for murder if they commit mistakes?

TOMASJ

You can assume whatever you want; I've already covered this on this thread and I don't like repeating myself.

Thats the reason for my post,
I have assumed (by you logic) that if a vote for Sinn Fein is not necessarily a vote for a united Ireland. That a vote for the DUP UUP ect maybe a vote for a united Ireland, you were as clear as mud on that point.

citizen zero

I'd love to see it happen. It's strange really but in recent times I've encountered a fair few people from a unionist background who don't actually seem to have a big ideological problem with it. On the other hand there seems to be more and more people from a nationalist background who really couldn't care less. So I'm not sure if this makes it more or less likely.

Fratton Fred

Mayo Exile wrote: »

So in a conflict situation, there is absolutely no allowances for mistakes then? If IRA bombers blow up a shopping centre because they think its an economic target and kill kids, if that F-16 pilot drops his bombs and some go astray wiping out that house, if a Russian tank gunner lets fly at a Georgian army truck full of soldiers and he misses and hits an apartment block full of people directly behind?

Must they all be perfectionists, and stand trial for murder if they commit mistakes?

what sort of mentality thinks a shopping centre in Warrington or Manchester, a Pub in Birmingham or a train station in London are justifiable military targets?

Going after a military leader with a record of using gas against his own people is a valid strategy. Tergetting people doing their Christmas shopping, going for a pint on a Friday night or on their way to work is not.

The IRA campaign in Britain was a campaign of murder against English people going about their daily business to install a sense of terror that would make them give in to the will of a few murdering scumbags. Then they wonder why the Irish republicans are disliked in England.:rolleyes:

100,000 Irish republicans marching through central London demonstrating against sectarian discrimination would have achieved a thousand times more and killed a lot less people. But hey, Terrorists don't get off on that do they.

Mayo Exile

Not the point I was making Fratton Fred. Just offering a scenario on plans, resulting actions and their possible consequences. I wasn't referring to motive. If you want to add motive, thats your right.