Would you like to see a united Ireland?

djpbarry

thehighground wrote: »

...us ex-foot soldiers and cannon fodder of British Empiralist wars...

:rolleyes:

I don't know about you, but I am fortunate enough not to have been directly involved in any "imperialist wars".

TOMASJ

I'm saying that a vote for a particular candidate is not necessarily a vote for 100% of that particular candidate's party's policies. It's quite simple really.

99% then, that will do me.

TOMASJ

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok...

Yep, still British.

Yep, still British Occupied,
against the will of the majority of Irish citizens.

Fratton Fred

TOMASJ wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok...

Yep, still British Occupied,
against the will of the majority of Irish citizens.

you might want to check up on your referendums.

TOMASJ

do you think they will then? MI5 had a network of spies that had infiltrated the loyalist death squads and they still struggled to control them

Thats a laugh, M15 supped from the same bowl as the loyalist death squads, ran them, used them, and then in Billy Wrights case, disposed of them,when they were of no more use.;)

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

TOMASJ wrote: »

you might want to check up on your referendums

How far back should I go when checking them referendums,
and like the brits can I ignore the ones I that I dont like.

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and how is Brtain not taking responsibility?

the Brits of today are paying for the legacy of their forefathers.

And quite right too after all the misery they heaped on the countries they occupied and enslaved

There has been an enormous lack of development in NI, today the 1 million or so people in NI receive net £6.5bn of public money,

In case you had not noticed FF there are near two million people living in the occ six, and near 50% of them want rid of westminster rule.

to relates this, the 15 or so million people of the South East of England contribute net £40bn. Britsih tax payers are paying grants to Irish Language initiatives, GAA clubs, even the Truth Process is being paid for by British tax payers, when all they ever got out of NI was the threat of some mudering scumbag blowing them up on their way to work.

Thats what happens when you invade countrys, murder large numbers of its inhabitants and settle planters, The natives bite back sooner or later,

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by djp barry: Oh, I think you do. Perhaps you could hypothesise on the "economic" or "military" motive behind the detonating of two bombs in two pubs at 8.30pm on a Thursday evening?

Since you won’t respond directly to the points that I have put to you djp (are you worried more about “who” might make the mistakes, and won’t admit it???) and seem to be more concerned more about my beliefs and want to know what they are, then you can have them.

I consider myself an Irish Republican and yes (shock, horror :eek:) an IRA supporter. Cutting straight to the point (avoiding the bull sh*t that so many seem to love to wallow in, in here) I believe that Irish Republicans had the right to use force to attempt to remove the British state from Ireland. As a supporter I will fully take responsibility for ALL their actions, no matter what the outcomes or consequences.

What started out as a campaign of civil rights for nationalists in the 1960's, caused instability in the Northern state. Republicans believed there was a chance using force to push for a single state on the island free from British control so they went for it. That’s my opinion on the start of it anyway.

It’s my opinion that what went in the North was a CONFLICT. You can call it a war, insurgency, rebellion, terrorist campaign or whatever, I don’t care. Believing that it was a conflict, I fully accept the right of the other side to defend itself when attacked, be they British Army or UDR soldiers, RUC policemen, UVF, UDA etc. I won’t bleat on about the “injustices” of Gibraltar, Loughgall etc, as not unnaturally, if you see a chance to “hit” the other side before they "hit" you, you’ll go for it. If the British had intelligence on IRA plans or intentions, they obviously struck first. That’s war or “Big Boys Rules” if you want to use that term, I accept it.

What I won’t accept is those who come on here to attack other Republicans, defending why the IRA did what it did, and seemingly not excepting ANY explanation put forward to defend their actions. Moaning and bitching about the IRA did this, the IRA did that, etc etc.

If you are all so “anti” the IRA, does that mean you supported the forces of the British state in their attempts to suppress them, and I mean ALL of their attempts?

If you do, you won’t have any trouble then, with the SAS putting a bullet into the back of an IRA man's to “finish him off”? Will you defend this, or does force/violence etc carried out in YOUR name or beliefs make you squirm?

If you ARE a pacifist up there with the standards of Mahatma Gandhi (I’m not), say so, I’ll respect you for it, but don’t proceed to make one-sided condemnations. It just looks plain stupid.

oscarBravo

Mayo Exile wrote: »

I consider myself an Irish Republican and yes (shock, horror :eek:) an IRA supporter.

At least you're up-front about it, but realise this: your support of murderers earns you my scorn, and that of most Irish people.

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by oscarBravo: At least you're up-front about it, but realise this: your support of murderers earns you my scorn, and that of most Irish people.

No problem, oscarBravo. I can't be any other way. But do you think that ALL (states/paramilitaries etc. doesn't matter who) who support force/violence (past, present and future) to achieve their aims, beliefs etc should be similarly up-front about it?

TOMASJ

oscarBravo wrote: »

At least you're up-front about it, but realise this: your support of murderers earns you my scorn, and that of most Irish people

Do posters who support the british army SAS UDR murderers ect also earn the scorn of yourself OB,and if not why so, is it the case that the brit murderers were good murderers and the IRA murderers were bad murderers,

sink

TOMASJ wrote: »

Do posters who support the british army SAS UDR murderers ect also earn the scorn of yourself OB,and if not why so, is it the case that the brit murderers were good murderers and the IRA murderers were bad murderers,

They certainly earn my scorn. The approach they took towards the troubles in the North actually worked against them. There was a time that Catholic communities welcomed British soldiers to their streets to protect them from Unionist mobs. But then they behaved badly and committed crimes and atrocities against the Catholics, not unprovoked I might add but that still does not excuse them. The situation escalated they met unrest with brutal force and the British establishment were too foolish to recognise the error of their ways. I lay as much scorn at the feet of those militant republicans who escalated the situation themselves by carrying out bloody terrorist campaigns which achieved nothing.

I'm speaking as someone whose Grandfather and Great Grandfather wore British uniforms.

Mayo Exile

And so no one is in any doubt at all, I consider myself a supporter of the "Provisional" IRA and Sinn Fein. Supporter of "other" IRA's can come on here and express their own views. It's their own right.

About my current view on the situation as it exists in Ireland: I fully support the (P) IRA's decision to go on ceasefire in July 1997. I fully support their decision to make the ceasefire permanent and stand down their structures. I further fully support Sinn Feins' current strategy.

Question for oscarBravo? You use the term, murderers in your reply to me. Are you saying all the Provisional IRA are murderers, or just some of them? Applying equal standards here: are all the British Army murderers or again, just some of them? Same scenario for members of the RUC, UDR etc.

Have you read the book, "The IRA and South Armagh" by Toby Harnden? In it he states that the British Army units based there were worried that South Armagh groups of the IRA were engaging them on equal terms. If a gun battle breaks out between the two sides and the British kill an IRA man, I won't call it murder. Will supporters of the British army admit likewise?

Furthermore, everybody feel free to extend the consequences of conflict to the world stage. Will supporters of the USA and Britain defend ALL the actions (no exceptions) of their armies in Iraq and Afghanistan? Same question for the supporters of the state of Israel and its army, Hamas, Fatah, the Taleban, Al-Qaeda, Russia, FARC etc etc.

Sand

MAYO EXILE

I consider myself an Irish Republican and yes (shock, horror ) an IRA supporter.

The two are pretty much inseperable, though Erin might protest. However, Erin supports the IRA as well. So yeah, pretty much inseperable.

Give me a definition and differences of the two.

Between "freedom fighters" and scumbag terrorists? Okay, the first is the subjective few of scumbag terrorist fanboys. And the second is the objective view of everyone else.

Ok. But you don't then expect reactions to what you post? Whatever they might be.............. .

Of course I expect reactions. But I honestly dont keep a file "How Mayo Exile rates my posting". Maybe if you actually made points rather than complain about how mean I am to you...

At least have some manners and respect for other posters. Your subtle attempts at ridicule do you no good...........

Respects earned, and I havent made a single attack on you. Just on your posted views [ I know for some they have can real difficulties seperating their ego and their views, but really attacking your posts isnt actually an attack on you...]

All I'm asking for is evidence...................You can't since the courts were unable to convict him. Martin Dillon's book on the subject is pretty comprehensive.

So what youre saying is, Gerry Adams is as innocent of murder as Lenny Murphy? I cant argue with that.

TOMAS J

Do posters who support the british army SAS UDR murderers ect also earn the scorn of yourself OB,and if not why so, is it the case that the brit murderers were good murderers and the IRA murderers were bad murderers,

Mayo Exile made a similar complaint. So again in the interest of objectivism and non partisan views, are you willing to agree with me that the Provos are as much scum as the loyalists, such as the Shankill Butchers? That Adams and his ilk, like Lenny Murphy were and are a plague on the lives of all the innocent people they murdered and maimed?

But you see, you wont. Like Mayo Exile, you complain that criticism of the Provos is selective, but when invited to agree with a broad condemnation of all Provo and loyalists youll go "Oh no, you see the Loyalists are scum, but our brave boys in the Provos - theyre simply misunderstood heros..."

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by sink: I'm speaking as someone whose Grandfather and Great Grandfather wore British uniforms.

As can I. My father was a member of the Royal Air Force from 1946 to about 1952.

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by Sand: Oh no, you see the Loyalists are scum, but our brave boys in the Provos - theyre simply misunderstood heros.

:rolleyes: Jesus Bloody H Sand, did you bother to read all of my post (#249)? You wanted my opinion on the IRA a while back, now you've got it. Its what you wanted all along isn't it?

Are YOU a pacifist of the Mahatma Gandhi standard? If you are NOT, have YOU ever supported ANY cause that might involve the use of force etc?

Originally posted by Sand: Between "freedom fighters" and scumbag terrorists? Okay, the first is the subjective few of scumbag terrorist fanboys. And the second is the objective view of everyone else.

If you are separating the two with this definition, don't the bullets and bombs used by both then do the exact same things to people and objects they target?

I DO respect you Sand. Do you respect me? I'm not as sensitive as you think....... If you can't see my points, well........

I, like you, Sand also say what I think.

Gerry Adams and Lenny Murphy: Yes, you are correct, neither of them were convicted of anything.

TOMASJ

Mayo Exile made a similar complaint. So again in the interest of objectivism and non partisan views, are you willing to agree with me that the Provos are as much scum as the loyalists, such as the Shankill Butchers? That Adams and his ilk, like Lenny Murphy were and are a plague on the lives of all the innocent people they murdered and maimed?

But you see, you wont. Like Mayo Exile, you complain that criticism of the Provos is selective, but when invited to agree with a broad condemnation of all Provo and loyalists youll go "Oh no, you see the Loyalists are scum, but our brave boys in the Provos - theyre simply misunderstood heros.

Sand, you forgot to unclude the british armed forces the UDR SAS in your objective and non partisan post, try and bring yourself to add these HEROs and I will see what I can do,

thehighground

djpbarry wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I don't know about you, but I am fortunate enough not to have been directly involved in any "imperialist wars".

Well, djp, you and I are lucky enough to be born into a soverign country that has a proud history of never having invaded another country. Not many of those around who are now 1st world countries. I was referring to all those, but particularly Irish born who fell on the battle fields of Galipoli, Somme etc., etc. etc. fighting for the British empire. I'm also glad that my country was not involved in the creation of the mess that is the Middle East, the splitting of the Indian continent into India and Pakistan, the sinking of the Belgrano, the creation of the monsters Mugabe, Idi Amin, etc. etc. etc, not to mention their creation & support of a sectarian statelet on this island which will take generations to rectify, if ever. Nothing glorious in that as far as I'm concerned and I was helpfully pointing out to Getz that not everyone might respond to his/her urging to "remember the united kingdom with pride and still wish to be part of the commonwealth with the queen as its head".

getz

the high ground is at it again -- ghurkers are granted full british citizenship if they have served with the british army or in former british colonies or territories but not if they are serving with other countrys ie malayian -indian or american army --lets face it alot of citizens of the commonwealth served in the british army but they connot get british citzenship. its a good thing because everyone seams to want to live in the uk-eu has said that england is the most densely populated country in europe.so britain cannot be all that bad--also over one million people from the irish republic call it home ,and being of irish descent i love everyone of them--this forum is becoming very anti british calling us all evil- and backing the republician army--have you already forgotten about the ira and the irish civil war over 2000 irishmen died in that one?

djpbarry

Mayo Exile wrote: »

If you are all so “anti” the IRA, does that mean you supported the forces of the British state in their attempts to suppress them, and I mean ALL of their attempts?

I have no idea why so many IRA supporters jump to this conclusion; we’re either one of you or one of them, eh?

Mayo Exile wrote: »

If you do, you won’t have any trouble then, with the SAS putting a bullet into the back of an IRA man's to “finish him off”? Will you defend this…

No.

Mayo Exile wrote: »

If you ARE a pacifist up there with the standards of Mahatma Gandhi (I’m not), say so…

Not quite, but not far off; I would condemn the use of force except in cases where it is absolutely necessary, generally to advance the cause of peace.

Mayo Exile wrote: »

…don’t proceed to make one-sided condemnations. It just looks plain stupid.

No, that statement is just plain stupid; I state that the actions of the IRA were unacceptable, therefore I probably support all actions of the IDF, because I did not explicitly state that I do not support them.

But rest assured, the next time I condemn the IRA, I’ll be sure to quickly follow it up with my condemnation of: the war in Iraq, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Hamas, the Vietnam War, ETA, the Tamil Tigers, the US invasion of Panama, football hooliganism, school-yard bullying, the Holocaust, the World Wrestling Federation, the Grand Theft Auto series of video games, Rambo, Billy the Kid, GI Joe, etc., etc., etc.

tv3

Getz,

I agree 100% with with the ira did over the years to protect the scum from "trying" to take over there land.The police were corrupt in the north and should of never being allowed in there.Thats the brits problem...they want to get there nose in everywere and they just get themselves in trouble were they dont want to be....like look at the news and when you hear a brit or american solider killed its the headlines:rolleyes:but yet you dont really hear about the civilians these scum kill:mad:tbh you cant blame people hating the brits and americans as all they do is want to be directly involved in taking over peoples land etc.I think they should be dealing with there own problems and working out were in the uk is goin to be hit NEXT??

dante18

Sand wrote:

are you willing to agree with me that the Provos are as much scum as the loyalists, such as the Shankill Butchers?

Definitely not. I don't know if you are aware of what the Shankill butchers did but if you're honestly trying to compare the actions of the IRA with the actions of the Shankill butchers then you really need to do some reading. What the Shankill butchers did was much worse than anything the IRA ever did. As far as I'm aware the IRA never abducted any innocent protestant civilians just because they were protestants, tortured them and then murdered them. I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Many innocent civilians lost their lives as a result of republican violence but unlike the loyalists, republicans didn't as a rule target innocent civilians because of their religion. Loyalists did target innocent civilians because of their religion and they are therefore deserving of greater contempt than the republicans.

Why do you think people seem to remember the Kingsmill massacre more than all the other sectarian killings in the north? The reason we rightly hold the Kingsmill massacre to be an abomination is largely because we hold the IRA to a higher standard than we hold the loyalist scum. When the republicans descend to the sectarian depravity of the loyalists then we can justifiably compare them to the loyalists.

Fratton Fred

tv3 wrote: »

Getz,

I agree 100% with with the ira did over the years to protect the scum from "trying" to take over there land.The police were corrupt in the north and should of never being allowed in there.Thats the brits problem...they want to get there nose in everywere and they just get themselves in trouble were they dont want to be....like look at the news and when you hear a brit or american solider killed its the headlines:rolleyes:but yet you dont really hear about the civilians these scum kill:mad:tbh you cant blame people hating the brits and americans as all they do is want to be directly involved in taking over peoples land etc.I think they should be dealing with there own problems and working out were in the uk is goin to be hit NEXT??

Interesting. you agree 100% with a campaign of terror against innocent people then call other people scum.:rolleyes:

getz

the ira declared war on the british -so when a british soldier policeman or any british or republican citizen was killed it was war -but when a ira soldier was killed it is murder ?==you can not have it both ways-even the irish patriotic yanks -had enough of the ira terrorism- remember republic gardia and politicians have been murdered by them -if you think it would all go away with a united ireland in this generation -you are wrong

Fratton Fred

dante18 wrote: »

Definitely not. I don't know if you are aware of what the Shankill butchers did but if you're honestly trying to compare the actions of the IRA with the actions of the Shankill butchers then you really need to do some reading. What the Shankill butchers did was much worse than anything the IRA ever did. As far as I'm aware the IRA never abducted any innocent protestant civilians just because they were protestants, tortured them and then murdered them. I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Many innocent civilians lost their lives as a result of republican violence but unlike the loyalists, republicans didn't as a rule target innocent civilians because of their religion. Loyalists did target innocent civilians because of their religion and they are therefore deserving of greater contempt than the republicans.

Why do you think people seem to remember the Kingsmill massacre more than all the other sectarian killings in the north? The reason we rightly hold the Kingsmill massacre to be an abomination is largely because we hold the IRA to a higher standard than we hold the loyalist scum. When the republicans descend to the sectarian depravity of the loyalists then we can justifiably compare them to the loyalists.

lesser of two evils tbh. Targetting innocent people is targetting innocent whether you do it because of their religion or because you just want to carry out a terrorist attack. I don't see how you can say one level of scum is better or worse than the other.

LordSutch

dante18 wrote: »

What the Shankill butchers did was much worse than anything the IRA ever did. As far as I'm aware the IRA never abducted any innocent protestant civilians just because they were protestants, tortured them and then murdered them. I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Oh really :rolleyes:

dante18 wrote: »

Many innocent civilians lost their lives as a result of republican violence but unlike the loyalists, republicans didn't as a rule target innocent civilians because of their religion. Loyalists did target innocent civilians because of their religion and they are therefore deserving of greater contempt than the republicans.

Oh really :rolleyes:

dante18 wrote: »

Why do you think people seem to remember the Kingsmill massacre more than all the other sectarian killings in the north? The reason we rightly hold the Kingsmill massacre to be an abomination is largely because we hold the IRA to a higher standard than we hold the loyalist scum. When the republicans descend to the sectarian depravity of the loyalists then we can justifiably compare them to the loyalists.

Deary deary me - Looks like you have been 'well & truly' indoctrinated into the Republican fold.

dante18

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't see how you can say one level of scum is better or worse than the other.

Because it's true. The IRA did not as a rule target innocent civilians because of their religion. There were a few isolated exceptions but in general the IRA did it's best to avoid civilian casualties. The opposite was true for the loyalists. Unlike most IRA bombings, the civilian casualties caused by the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were not the result of a mistake.

dante18

Camelot wrote: »

Oh really :rolleyes:

Well maybe you can give me some examples then of when the IRA abducted innocent protestants, tortured them and then killed them?


[quote=Camelot]Deary deary me - Looks like you have been 'well & truly' indoctrinated into the Republican fold.[/quote]

I never supported the IRA and I think they were wrong to do what they did. At the same time though I think they at least operated according to a higher moral standard than the loyalists. Targeting innocent civilians because of their religion was not one of the things the IRA was known for. The loyalists on the other hand...

djpbarry

dante18 wrote: »

The IRA did not as a rule target innocent civilians because of their religion.

So why did they target them?

dante18

djpbarry wrote: »

So why did they target them?

They didn't target innocent civilians. They targeted members of the security forces, British army and high-ranking members of the British establishment but they didn't target innocent members of the public.

They did aim to instill fear in the civilian population in Britain in order to bring the political pressure on the British government but I don't believe they had a policy of killing them. They always tried to give warnings in advance of any bombing.