[Article] Metro North documents to be lodged

Victor

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0913/1221235786679.html

Metro North documents to be lodged
TIM O'BRIEN

THOUSANDS OF Dubliners are expected to seek copies of the planning application for Metro North when it is lodged with An Bord Pleanála on Wednesday.

The planning application – officially an application for a Railway Order – is to be accompanied by an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) which contains details of disturbance caused by the construction of the 18km, partly underground, rail line linking Swords and Dublin airport with St Stephen’s Green.

The EIS will look at disturbance to traffic and trade as well as to hospitals, community organisations, schools and parks.

The application and the EIS will be available at An Bord Pleanála’s headquarters in Marlborough Street as well as at Fingal County Council offices in Swords, Dublin’s Civic Offices on Wood Quay, Ballymun Regeneration on Ballymun Road and from the Railway Procurement Agency at Parkgate Street.

An Bord Pleanála will accept submissions on the project until October 29th and is expected to then hold an oral hearing which may take several weeks. A decision on the application is expected by next autumn.

The Railway Procurement Agency has refused to say how much the five-year construction project is set to cost, citing commercial sensitivities as the tendering process is under way.

But documents obtained from the Department of Transport set the cost of Metro North at €4.58 billion in 2004 prices.

Transport sources said this was an estimate of the full cost of the construction and operation of the Public Private Partnership (PPP)over the 35 years of the partnership’s life-span.

The construction element alone has been put at about €2.5 billion at 2007 prices. The remaining costs cover operation and maintenance and the refurbishment of the system at the end of the 35 years before its handover to the State. It also covers significant bank and consultancy fees for the PPP. Under typical PPPs in the National Roads Programme, the State would put up 65 percent of the construction costs, which would give the Government a bill of some €1.5 billion to be paid over five years. The remainder would be in agreed scheduled payments to the private sector partner over the lifetime of the partnership.

Fares collected from passengers – expected to number 34 million in the first year of operation – would go towards repayments to the private sector partner, but the fares alone are not expected to cover the full annual payment.

Metro North was originally scheduled for completion by 2012, but is now more likely to be about 2014 at the earliest.

Amtmann

So, it's going to happen - thank God! The Irish Independent reports today that three rail projects (Metro, Interconnector, LUAS) are to be built simultaneously.

Dublin will be an awful mess for the next few years -- but it will be worth it.

I have a few questions, however.

1) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid Metro North to go ahead?

2) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid the Interconnector to go ahead?

3) How likely are multiple objections to severly delay the project?

4) At the earliest, when can we expect construction to begin?

5) At the earliest, when will construction (of the interconnector and Metro North) be finished?

6) Can someone tell me precisely what is wrong with Metro West?

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

So, it's going to happen - thank God! The Irish Independent reports today that three rail projects (Metro, Interconnector, LUAS) are to be built simultaneously.

Dublin will be an awful mess for the next few years -- but it will be worth it.

I have a few questions, however.

1) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid Metro North to go ahead?

2) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid the Interconnector to go ahead?

3) How likely are multiple objections to severly delay the project?

4) At the earliest, when can we expect construction to begin?

5) At the earliest, when will construction (of the interconnector and Metro North) be finished?

6) Can someone tell me precisely what is wrong with Metro West?

Errr... well I can answer with some cynicism those questions:

1) From a few weeks to a few months depending on objections.

2) Same as above.

3) Well I can't imagine anyone having objections to such critical pieces of infrastructure. But I'd imagine most objections would be over the location of the St.Stephen's Green station and the construction that'll take place there.

4) 2010 for both projects. MN is more likely to start quicker.

5) Well in the Transport 21 schedule, MN is meant to finished by the end of 2012. So unless they start building tommorow, or magically go back in time, it ain't gonna happen. 2014 for Metro North I'd say. The interconnector is meant to be finished by 2015 which is a pretty realistic target if they can get planning permission.

6) Metro West - the big problem people have is that IT ISN'T A REAL METRO. 'Metro' implies full segregation and a high-speed, efficient service. Metro West is simply another luas line as it stands. If we're going to invest money, we might as well do it right rather than always going for the cheapest option (which is still damn expensive).

Metrobest

Victor wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0913/1221235786679.html

Why does the Irish Times always make stuff up when they write about Metro North? This piece is riddled with inaccuracies and falsities and conjecture. They always frame Metro North in the negative - how much it will cost, how long it will take to build, disruption to the ducks in the park, etc...

Never will you read a piece in the Irish Times saying "thousands of Dubliners can look forward to a new mass transit system on their doorsteps when RPA releases the planning application for the Metro North line"...

Wanna know why infrastructure is so delayed and of such poor quality in Ireland? Look at the way the paper of record reports it..

Flaw number 1: "thousands of Dubliners are expected to seek copies of the planning application for Metro North when it is lodged with An Bord Pleanála on Wednesday". Did the journalist actually conduct a survey to establish that thousands of Dubliners were going to seek copies of the planning?

Flaw number 2: "But documents obtained from the Department of Transport set the cost of Metro North at €4.58 billion in 2004 prices." The documents were not '''obtained'''- they were publicly available. "Obtained" is used to make the RPA look secretive and sneaky.

Flaw number 3: "The construction element alone has been put at about €2.5 billion at 2007 prices." By whom?

Flaw number 4: "Fares collected from passengers – expected to number 34 million in the first year of operation – would go towards repayments to the private sector partner, but the fares alone are not expected to cover the full annual payment." An underhand way of disguising the journalist's opinion...

My message to the Irish Times: stick to the facts. Your crude anti-Metro bias is plain for all to see.

Sponge Bob

Metrobest wrote: »

Why does the Irish Times always make stuff up when they write about Metro North?

Because Frank McDonald is a big fan of the Interconnector.

Also because Frank probably knows ( if he did any proper research ) that The Interconnector Tunnel and MN will not be built simultaneously because the Dept of Finance will not allow 2 separate lots of contractors into one hole with all the massive rows and massive cost overruns that would mean.

Read Franks sunny uncritical IT article on the interconnector only last month and ask yourself who is really to blame for that hole in Stephens Green ....surely not just MN on its own when the Interconnector is also going in there ??

Frank Mc seems not to be chummy with Frank Allen of the RPA (is that RIP) either if you can remember this early 2007 piece of Frank on Frank in the IT . Maybe it is professional distance, maybe not !

"Mr Allen said if the RPA was required to build a second underground station in St Stephen's Green, to serve the future rail interconnector between Heuston Station and Spencer Dock, it "would blow our project" - the cost of which is unofficially estimated at €3.5 to €4 billion."

If you want MN built before the Interconnector then make sure you challenge Frank at each and every opportunity . Otherwise Frank and the IT will kill MN .

godtabh

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Also because Frank probably knows ( if he did any proper research ) that The Interconnector Tunnel and MN will not be built simultaneously because the Dept of Finance will not allow 2 separate lots of contractors into one hole with all the massive rows and massive cost overruns that would mean.


.

The interconnector and MN will be built together or at least the St. Stephens green stop

Sponge Bob

kearnsr wrote: »

The interconnector and MN will be built together or at least the St. Stephens green stop

These RPA and Irish Rail meetings are only a diplomatic nicety .

If they do not take place then NEITHER project will happen.

Have the RPA and Irish Rail ever held a joint press conference to present to the public of Dublin the outline agreement allegedly reached in those meetings and if not why not ???

Have they even agreed on a joint press release ??

godtabh

Sponge Bob wrote: »

These RPA and Irish Rail meetings are only a diplomatic nicety .

If they do not take place then NEITHER project will happen.

Have the RPA and Irish Rail ever held a joint press conference to present to the public of Dublin the outline agreement allegedly reached in those meetings and if not why not ???

Have they even agreed on a joint press release ??

Havent a clue.

But if you look at the plans for St Stephens green you'll see the interconnector is underneath the MN stop. Logic would dictate that at least some discussion was under taken between the RPA and IE about this. Thats the point I was making

Sponge Bob

Recent Logic kearnsr , only recent !

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055035569

"Mr Allen ( head of RPA January 2007) said if the RPA was required to build a second underground station in St Stephen's Green, to serve the future rail interconnector between Heuston Station and Spencer Dock, it "would blow our project" - the cost of which is unofficially estimated at €3.5 to €4 billion."

But it really is good to talk and it always was the one station ...but two contracts !

godtabh

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Recent Logic kearnsr , only recent !

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055035569

"Mr Allen ( head of RPA January 2007) said if the RPA was required to build a second underground station in St Stephen's Green, to serve the future rail interconnector between Heuston Station and Spencer Dock, it "would blow our project" - the cost of which is unofficially estimated at €3.5 to €4 billion."

But it really is good to talk and it always was the one station ...but two contracts !

Two contracts for one piece of infrastructure is not unknown. How its managed is the key. When more details are known I suppose we will know more. I wonder when that will happen

Victor

Metrobest wrote: »

Why does the Irish Times always make stuff up when they write about Metro North? This piece is riddled with inaccuracies and falsities and conjecture. They always frame Metro North in the negative - how much it will cost, how long it will take to build, disruption to the ducks in the park, etc...

Never will you read a piece in the Irish Times saying "thousands of Dubliners can look forward to a new mass transit system on their doorsteps when RPA releases the planning application for the Metro North line"...

Wanna know why infrastructure is so delayed and of such poor quality in Ireland? Look at the way the paper of record reports it..

Flaw number 1: "thousands of Dubliners are expected to seek copies of the planning application for Metro North when it is lodged with An Bord Pleanála on Wednesday". Did the journalist actually conduct a survey to establish that thousands of Dubliners were going to seek copies of the planning?

Flaw number 2: "But documents obtained from the Department of Transport set the cost of Metro North at €4.58 billion in 2004 prices." The documents were not '''obtained'''- they were publicly available. "Obtained" is used to make the RPA look secretive and sneaky.

Flaw number 3: "The construction element alone has been put at about €2.5 billion at 2007 prices." By whom?

Flaw number 4: "Fares collected from passengers – expected to number 34 million in the first year of operation – would go towards repayments to the private sector partner, but the fares alone are not expected to cover the full annual payment." An underhand way of disguising the journalist's opinion...

My message to the Irish Times: stick to the facts. Your crude anti-Metro bias is plain for all to see.

Parts of that sounds like the piece was driven by a press briefing / release.

Victor

Furet wrote: »

1) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid Metro North to go ahead?

The programme is likely to be something like:
September 2008: Public Consultation
January 2009: Oral Hearing
May 2009: Decision by ABP
July 2009: end of appeal period

2) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid the Interconnector to go ahead?

The Interconnector is at a much earlier stage. Although it is a smaller project, all of it is complicated, whereas MN is relatively simpler for its northern half.

3) How likely are multiple objections to severly delay the project?

You ahve to look at where the objections will come from. The most serious objections are likely to be on disturbance / commercial grounds from city centre retailers (especially) and concern for the park in St. Stephen's Green from the General public. There will be distrubance in Ballymun and through the tunnelling operations, but I think the objection risk is manageable.

4) At the earliest, when can we expect construction to begin?

I think late 2009, but that can vary by six months taking into account early starts on some parts and allowing for ramping up of the works. Construction can probably start in several places at the same time.

(a) Belinstown Depot.
(b) Belinstown - Airport which is most on the surface or shallow tunnel or elevated.
(c) Airport. Bored tunnel.
(d) Airport - Ballymun.
(e) Ballymun - DCU. Cut and cover tunnel
(f) DCU - St. Stephen's Green. Bored tunnel.
(g) Stations. Mater is likely to procede well ahead of other work.

I imagine a Luas style operation could be in place in Swords before the city section starts operations.

5) At the earliest, when will construction (of the interconnector and Metro North) be finished?

MN - end 2012, probably late. Interconnector, probably 1-2 years later, but its all up in the air.

6) Can someone tell me precisely what is wrong with Metro West?

Its the mutant offspring. It pretends to be a metro, when in fact is will be much more like the Luas Red Line outside the city centre. It take a lot of detours to feed certain locations. Many of the major junctions aren't grade separated, i.e. level crossings and traffic lights.

Metrobest

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Read Franks sunny uncritical IT article on the interconnector only last month and ask yourself who is really to blame for that hole in Stephens Green ....surely not just MN on its own when the Interconnector is also going in there ??

If you want MN built before the Interconnector then make sure you challenge Frank at each and every opportunity . Otherwise Frank and the IT will kill MN .

I've given up reading the Irish Times online because of articles like this - I used to buy it when I lived in Ireland because it's the only quality daily newspaper so it has a virtual monopoly on its market. That makes its content all the more potent, giving the likes to Frank McDonald too much power which is dangerous for a democracy as the country's political and economic elite take their cues from this newspaper, which at a massive €1.80 (;ast time I was in Ireland) must rank as one of most expensive broadsheet newspapers in the world.

It's funny how Frank McDonald is never seeking to "obtain" documents about the cost estimates for the Interconnector. He's perfectly happy to accept Iarnroad Eireann's version of things - even though they have a record of screwing up other major projects including the last piece of urban rail infrastructure built in Ireland: the luas. The Interconnector project sounds horrendously disruptive to the city centre in comparision with MN, but Frank McDonald never asks the hard questions which his audience is entitled to have answered. Instead Frank McDonald just rolls over and turns into a poodle when he interviews Irish Rail; while with the RPA he morphs into a demented rothweiler :pac:

trellheim

In fairness I haven't seen anyone cheerleading for BOTH RPA and IE ; everyone is in one or the other [ remember there's only one wodge of cash ]

:feelings still running high after the Battle of Broadstone :rolleyes::):rolleyes:

paulm17781

Metrobest wrote: »

It's funny how Frank McDonald is never seeking to "obtain" documents about the cost estimates for the Interconnector. He's perfectly happy to accept Iarnroad Eireann's version of things - even though they have a record of screwing up other major projects including the last piece of urban rail infrastructure built in Ireland: the luas.

Iarnrod Eireann never touched the Luas. That was all your beloved RPA. In fact, IE have a pretty good record when it comes to infrastructure. Better than the RPA. Of course you know this, you're just choosing to ignore it. "If I don't believe a fact, then it's not a fact."

I don't understand you at all. When the IC is built it will be the most important piece of rail infrastructure on the island followed by the metro. I want both to be built but the IC will impact far more people.

BrianD

Furet wrote: »

So, it's going to happen - thank God! The Irish Independent reports today that three rail projects (Metro, Interconnector, LUAS) are to be built simultaneously.

Dublin will be an awful mess for the next few years -- but it will be worth it.

I have a few questions, however.

1) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid Metro North to go ahead?

2) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid the Interconnector to go ahead?

3) How likely are multiple objections to severly delay the project?

4) At the earliest, when can we expect construction to begin?

5) At the earliest, when will construction (of the interconnector and Metro North) be finished?

6) Can someone tell me precisely what is wrong with Metro West?

Is this piece of national infrastructure not immune from the planning process.

I think what you'll find is that the plitical interference from lobbying by vested interests will be more of a problem than ordinary folks objecting because they are worried about tunnelling under their homes or they don't fancy living beside a metro station (until they advertise their house for sale). It's this kind of interference that has the green line terminating at Stephens green instead of the sity centre or beyond.

Victor

RPA wrote:

As you probably know the documents accompanying the application (plans, EIS, etc.) will be available for public inspection from next Wednesday (17 September) and the deadline for formal submissions to AnBP is 29 October.

paulm17781 wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann never touched the Luas. That was all your beloved RPA.

The Light Rail Office started as a CIÉ/IÉ off-shoot and became the RPA.

Metrobest

paulm17781 wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann never touched the Luas. That was all your beloved RPA. In fact, IE have a pretty good record when it comes to infrastructure. Better than the RPA.

I don't understand you .

CIE light rail project office was responsible for initial design and planning (including the much maligned decision to purchase 30m trams for the red line); subsequently the RPA was created... The last project IE were repsponsible for - DART Upgrade - was months behind schedule because of An Taisce, yet miraculously came in on budget. Then there was the fiasco of the Cork Dublin train... the list goes on... Listen I'm not saying the RPA are perfect, but there a damn sight better than the decades of incompetence and mismanagement from Irish Rail..

Also I'm not denying the Interconnector's importance as a project for the greater Dublin area (although its impact on sprawl consolodation is another matter), but for the city of Dublin MN is the most essential project to take the city forward; without it the metropolitan area of Dublin will slide into further decline while continued suburbanistan will radiate along the interconnector's corridors.

The more sustainable situation is a high density alternative corridor between Swords and the city which can only take place when MN is operational. But it shouldn't be an either/or. We need - and can well afford - both. There's no excuse. Ireland is not a poor country anymore.

paulm17781

Victor wrote: »

The Light Rail Office started as a CIÉ/IÉ off-shoot and became the RPA.

That's true but the much delayed construction was all the RPA. I've met some of the RPA lads and I think they're doing an excellent job with the Luas but they have a worse reputation that CIE for infrastructure, in fact, the RPA are yet to deliver a project on time.

Metrobest, I agree with what you said. You however are also the first person to shoot down the IC against MN. Both are needed but IC will deliver beneifts for more than MN. We've had these conversations before, let's not get into this again. What is important is that both get built.

Ps. MN won't be as effective with out the IC.

Metrobest

paulm17781 wrote: »

Ps. MN won't be as effective with out the IC.

Agreed.

bk

paulm17781 wrote: »

That's true but the much delayed construction was all the RPA. I've met some of the RPA lads and I think they're doing an excellent job with the Luas but they have a worse reputation that CIE for infrastructure, in fact, the RPA are yet to deliver a project on time.

The extension down to the point seems to be well on schedule.

This gives me hope that the RPA have learned their lessons from the first Luas projects and the lessons that is seems the NRA have most certainly learnt and that MN and future Luas projects will be on time and on budget.

Victor

Metrobest wrote: »

Agreed.

STRIKE!

Sorry, joke.

Victor

1. The documents arrive in the An Bord Pleanála offices today - a box not quite as tall as a filing cabinet, but twice the width, plus 16 rolls of drawings. The staff are going to have fun stamping all of that.

2. 2,000+ pages 200+ drawings by X copies. They need to be stamped by ABP first, before they will hand them out. If you want drawings or other documents, they are likely to be on the RPA website on Tuesday or Wednesday.

3. €5-7bn metro / airport projects and you still have to walk to the terminal.

4. I looked at the pre-consultation file - this has been going on for a year and a half. In that year and a half, the project has slipped 9 months. ABP concerns are St. Stephen's Green, O'Connell Street heritage, interchange and usability.

5. It struck me that they might have to build BX (or at least the Hawkins Street Bridge) because OCB stop will use up so much road capacity.

6. They expect 4-4.5 years for construction - or 7 years if it is in more than one phase (I can't see how this would be done on practical terms).

7. There was originally another route option through Clonshaugh Industrial Estate - this never went to public consultation.

8. Quite a bit of fuzziness on what the ultimate capacity will be.

9. Busiest section of route expected to be DCU to Ballymun. Busiest station - St. Stephen's Green (because it is a terminus).

10. Ranelagh is on the minds, but also on the long finger.

noobie

Hi,


The documents for Metro will be put online here.



www.dublinmetronorth.ie

BluntGuy

Well I'd like to see Interconnector take priority.

While I think Metro North is definately an important project, the interconnector is the key to sorting out the current lack of intergration. It will help to us to make infinitely better use of our EXISTING services.

Metro North on the otherhand, while providing a safe, high-speed link to the airport and northern suburbs, does not actually directly improve existing services. i.e if MN was constructed, the bottlenecks in the city centre would still persist.

I'd like to see both of them going ahead ASAP, but if I had to pick one, it would definately be the interconnector.

bk

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well I'd like to see Interconnector take priority.

I think it is the opposite. MN serves areas which currently have zero rail based public transport.

The areas served by the interconnector are already served by existing DART and commuter rail services. Sure it will vastly improve frequency, capacity and integration, but it doesn't actually bring anything new, so should be slightly lower priority (very slightly mind you).

Sponge Bob

Victor wrote: »

8. Quite a bit of fuzziness on what the ultimate capacity will be.

I heard that they cannot state that until they get a Fire Cert and the Fire Cert will limit them at their most constricted station and from there on the entire network . We will know what the capacity is by 2015/2016 or so .

10. Ranelagh is on the minds, but also on the long finger.

Not if Sean Dunne can help it , he wants it extended to his towers in Ballsbridge 8)

gjim

Flaw number 1: "thousands of Dubliners are expected to seek copies of the planning application for Metro North when it is lodged with An Bord Pleanála on Wednesday". Did the journalist actually conduct a survey to establish that thousands of Dubliners were going to seek copies of the planning?

Flaw number 2: "But documents obtained from the Department of Transport set the cost of Metro North at €4.58 billion in 2004 prices." The documents were not '''obtained'''- they were publicly available. "Obtained" is used to make the RPA look secretive and sneaky.

Flaw number 3: "The construction element alone has been put at about €2.5 billion at 2007 prices." By whom?

Flaw number 4: "Fares collected from passengers – expected to number 34 million in the first year of operation – would go towards repayments to the private sector partner, but the fares alone are not expected to cover the full annual payment." An underhand way of disguising the journalist's opinion...

What a load of indignant waffle. Reading "underhanded" motives into a report which consists pretty much of straight dry facts.

Flaw number 1: I can't imagine anything more reasonable than expecting 1,000s of copies to be requested considering the statutary bodies, commercial interests as well as the public who will be affected. You demand a survey before a journalist states the obvious? Flaw 2: again, what is your problem? They didn't get the documents from the Pope. The journalist is simply stating their source. Useful for anyone who would like to get more detail. Flaw 3: you complain when the source of the document is stated (Flaw 2) and now you claim not citing the source is a flaw. As for Flaw 4 - it's an entirely factual statement. What part of it is flawed? The passenger numbers or the fact that the farebox is not going to cover the annual payment in what is a novel financing arrangement for a public transport project in this country. Are you offended that this fact is expressed? Would you rather it be hidden?

You really need to get a grip. Your hyperbole and bias has long since lost its (minor) amusement value.

DWCommuter

Metrobest wrote: »

Also I'm not denying the Interconnector's importance as a project for the greater Dublin area (although its impact on sprawl consolodation is another matter), but for the city of Dublin MN is the most essential project to take the city forward; without it the metropolitan area of Dublin will slide into further decline while continued suburbanistan will radiate along the interconnector's corridors.

The more sustainable situation is a high density alternative corridor between Swords and the city which can only take place when MN is operational. But it shouldn't be an either/or. We need - and can well afford - both. There's no excuse. Ireland is not a poor country anymore.

(although its impact on sprawl consolodation is another matter)

Metrobest you surprise me. The interconnector will not contribute to sprawl as its services are fixed at the traditional 1970s CIE county boundary limits, Hazelhatch,Bray,Balbriggan and Maynooth.The original boundary limits for the Dublin rail plan of Drogheda and Kildare town may well have lent some weight to your comment, but the current idea does not.

but for the city of Dublin MN is the most essential project to take the city forward; without it the metropolitan area of Dublin will slide into further decline while continued suburbanistan will radiate along the interconnector's corridors.

You are definetly slipping. Where along Metro North is all this development going to happen? Leaving aside the fact that home building is shot to **** in Dublin right now, the MN route is already developed beyond demand. (apart from the green acres beyond swords that Fingal Co Co have plans for.) And once again the interconnectors corridors are already within the county boundary. Additional services on existing provincial routes, will still run to Heuston and require a change. Hardly an improved incentive to buy a house in Athlone, considering the road network in Ireland is improving quicker than the rail network.

Overall, your view of Ireland is somewhat detached from the reality on the ground as shown below.

The more sustainable situation is a high density alternative corridor between Swords and the city which can only take place when MN is operational. But it shouldn't be an either/or. We need - and can well afford - both. There's no excuse. Ireland is not a poor country anymore

Im still fascinated by this high density corridor and the land its meant to occupy. I drive it everyday and there's more concrete than green belt. As for affording both, who are you kidding? Yes we could've done it with a decent Government that believed in the concept of public transport, but we don't have that and they don't read your posts here either. T21 was nothing more than an election stunt. The money was blown years before it.

And by the way, Ireland is a "poor" country at the moment, when it comes to satisfying the lust of public transport engineers. Unfortunetly they were raped by the semi-detached house builders. But then again the Government placed more emphasis on that, than the concept of getting the semi detached house dwellers to work and back.

Your beliefs and visions are lovely. I respect them. But they are at odds with the political (always were) and economic reality of where this banana republic is heading. October budget will set the stall out. Dream your dream from foreign soil and I'll live my reality rigt here where it happens.

Metrobest

gjim wrote: »

What a load of indignant waffle. Reading "underhanded" motives into a report which consists pretty much of straight dry facts.

What I asked for was obectivity - that's supposed to be a cornerstone of good journalism. You don't need to be an expert in discourse analysis to see
Frank McDonald and the Irish Times in general are failing in this regard. An objective comparion between positive coverage of the interconnector and negative coverage MN clearly shows where the bias lies.

Metrobest

DWCommuter wrote: »

You are definetly slipping. Where along Metro North is all this development going to happen? Leaving aside the fact that home building is shot to **** in Dublin right now, the MN route is already developed beyond demand. (apart from the green acres beyond swords that Fingal Co Co have plans for.) And once again the interconnectors corridors are already within the county boundary. Additional services on existing provincial routes, will still run to Heuston and require a change. Hardly an improved incentive to buy a house in Athlone, considering the road network in Ireland is improving quicker than the rail network.
Im still fascinated by this high density corridor and the land its meant to occupy. I drive it everyday and there's more concrete than green belt. As for affording both, who are you kidding? Yes we could've done it with a decent Government that believed in the concept of public transport, but we don't have that and they don't read your posts here either. T21 was nothing more than an election stunt. The money was blown years before it.

And by the way, Ireland is a "poor" country at the moment, when it comes to satisfying the lust of public transport engineers. Unfortunetly they were raped by the semi-detached house builders. But then again the Government placed more emphasis on that, than the concept of getting the semi detached house dwellers to work and back.

Your beliefs and visions are lovely. I respect them. But they are at odds with the political (always were) and economic reality of where this banana republic is heading. October budget will set the stall out. Dream your dream from foreign soil and I'll live my reality rigt here where it happens.

Swords is a city of just over 30,000 but it can grow to over 100,000 with MN. There are huge tracts of land around the M50 part of the line that can be developed into a sustainable high rise community - but that's all contingent on the metro being built. Along established suburbs, a strategy of urban consolodation is needed.

bk

Metrobest wrote: »

Swords is a city of just over 30,000 but it can grow to over 100,000 with MN. There are huge tracts of land around the M50 part of the line that can be developed into a sustainable high rise community - but that's all contingent on the metro being built. Along established suburbs, a strategy of urban consolodation is needed.

There is also a number of tracts of undeveloped land along the route closer to the city where high rise development will take place. The corner of Collins Avenue and Swords road where they dug the hole for the port tunnel jumps to mind, you'd easily fit a couple hundred apartments in there. There are many other examples of this.

Nostradamus

DWCommuter wrote: »

Metrobest you surprise me. The interconnector will not contribute to sprawl as its services are fixed at the traditional 1970s CIE county boundary limits, Hazelhatch,Bray,Balbriggan and Maynooth.The original boundary limits for the Dublin rail plan of Drogheda and Kildare town may well have lent some weight to your comment, but the current idea does not.

I understand where he is coming from as the Interconnector can in reality lead to a pouring of people into the DART far reaches. Mainly because it allows stuff like Park and Rides and taking a connecting bus to stations like Hazelhatch more realistic and less time consuming. This is what happens on Network Southeast, the Long Island Railroad, New Jersey Transit and every where else there is a top notch commuter heavy rail service. It's something which we have to be very careful about not happening here. The Interconnector has to happen and its pros far outweigh the cons (which there are none really), but Metrobest has a point as this sprawl can happen because of it.

The population is still growing regardless of the downturn. Eventually the demand for homes will come back. I know two couples who are holding of to see just how low the prices go down and why not, I would do the same in their position and I bet there are tens of thousands of people like that. They also what to live near Luas, DART or Metro and are looking for places along these corridors. This would also indicate that high-density will happen as the days of the Irish father spending most of his free time cutting his massive lawns is a thing of the past.

Although I chatting with a family last week who wanted to move to Claremorris as they would be able to "commute" to Galway as they are expected a "DART for the West" was coming... Serious, it's frightening, they were going on about it being "handy to get a train to Shannon from Claremorris". It's good to see that more and more people want to live near rail corridors, but they are in for a rude awakening due to the crock they have been sold which is sad.

Cool Mo D

Time to go check out http://www.dublinmetronorth.ie


There's quite a lot there, so if you wish to peruse it at your leisure, use Firefox, with the Downthemall! extension. http://www.downthemall.net/

noobie

Gonna take a long time to go through it all.:(

http://www.dublinmetronorth.ie/Downloads/PlanofProposedWorks/06-StructuresDCCBook%202of2/09-LMN000TO107008A.pdf

http://www.dublinmetronorth.ie/Downloads/PlanofProposedWorks/06-StructuresDCCBook%202of2/10-LMN000TO107009A.pdf


O'Connell St stop looks pretty big!

Victor

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Time to go check out http://www.dublinmetronorth.ie

There's quite a lot there, so if you wish to peruse it at your leisure, use Firefox, with the Downthemall! extension. http://www.downthemall.net/

Ha! They gave me a free CD (the first). They think it will be €15 (two CDs) from now on.

It seems the website was very busy this morning, so there does seem to be interest.

dRNk SAnTA

What do people make of it all?

No escalators for Ballymun?
What do people think of the Stephens Green station and how the North Line and the Interconnector are combined and connected? Steps going from one platform down to the other? I'm not a lazy fatty but is this cheap engineering on what will be a really heavily used area? I'm not expert and would love to be corrected.

How about the architecture? I haven't really got a grasp of what the station interiors will look like so I'm not commenting on them, but the airport entrance and the drumcondra building look sort of horrendous from the elevations.

Oh, and what will the station entrances look like? I couldn't find designs anywhere

BluntGuy

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

What do people make of it all?

No escalators for Ballymun?
What do people think of the Stephens Green station and how the North Line and the Interconnector are combined and connected? Steps going from one platform down to the other? I'm not a lazy fatty but is this cheap engineering on what will be a really heavily used area? I'm not expert and would love to be corrected.

How about the architecture? I haven't really got a grasp of what the station interiors will look like so I'm not commenting on them, but the airport entrance and the drumcondra building look sort of horrendous from the elevations.

Oh, and what will the station entrances look like? I couldn't find designs anywhere

Basically, we're going to make a mess of some aspects of the design, just so we can waste more money fixing it at a later date.

It's the Irish Way™...

monument

Metrobest...

- Unlike what you are trying to make out, the Irish Times obtained documents under the freedom of information. From these documents they obtained the costings. It was not a simple release, it was a strugle which lasted years. Even if you have problems with the word "obtained" in this way (and I can't see why you would) it is very normal practice for Irish and UK newspapers and other media groups to use it in this way.

- If you want more clarity on the matter of costs you should complain to the Government, the Department of Transport, and the RPA for not releasing costing figures or estimates on such.

- Frank McDonald might be a bit biased against Metro North (his what you view as his bias looks to be based on Government trying to hide the costs of MN) but you look to be biased for it...

- Unlike what you are trying to make out in this thread, the route maps alone show that Metro North (even just counting the city centre) is more likely to cause more disruption to busier areas of the city

- It is unfair to tar one journalist with the views of another journalist just because of one article.

- Bashing the Irish Times alone for having a cover price of €1.80 is pointless since both the Irish Independent and the Irish Examiner have the exact same cover price. And you can read the daily paper for free on their website!

- You said you never seem the Times saying "thousands of Dubliners can look forward to a new mass transit system on their doorsteps when RPA releases the planning application for the Metro North line"... well, [1] that sounds like a press release and not a report from a newspaper which has any real respect [2] the RPA are not releasing the planning application, they have submitted it to ABP (who releasing it).

- For the record, this is how the Irish Times reported the announcement of Transport 21 (which is standard reporting for respected newspapers of its type)... "The Government's €34 billion, 10-year transport plan will be completed on time and on budget and will revolutionise the State's infrastructure, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern said.However, the Opposition charged that much of the project has been promised before under the National Development Plan, which was to have been completed by the end of next year".

- You said: "Flaw number 4: "Fares collected from passengers – expected to number 34 million in the first year of operation – would go towards repayments to the private sector partner, but the fares alone are not expected to cover the full annual payment." An underhand way of disguising the journalist's opinion" ... but where exactly is the journalist hiding their opinion in that text?

You look to be slinging muck at the Irish Times and hoping some of it will stick.

Stick to the facts please. :rolleyes:

BluntGuy

Don't like the Times.
Don't like the 'Independent' :rolleyes: even more.

Don't really like any of the papers tbh...

But the Times was perfectly entitled to print out the article.

Metrobest

monument wrote: »

- If you want more clarity on the matter of costs you should complain to the Government, the Department of Transport, and the RPA for not releasing costing figures or estimates on such.

- Bashing the Irish Times alone for having a cover price of €1.80 is pointless since both the Irish Independent and the Irish Examiner have the exact same cover price. And you can read the daily paper for free on their website!

Stick to the facts please. :rolleyes

In other countries the media is much more positive about big projects and doesn't have this dog-with-a-bone attitude to how much the thing will cost; rather the emphasis is on the benefits. As Frank McDonald well knows, the costs won't be known until the tender process is complete so costs are not relevent. And the reason the costs aren't being released yet it to ensure a competitive bidding process. Why can't you see it's in the interests of the taxpayer, rather than some sinister trick? The information Frank McDonald "obtained" was publicly available on the internet and indeed was discussed at length on this forum prior to McDonald's "investigation" so language is being used incorrectly to skew the facts.

The issue is also raised of why McDonald is not going after the interconnector's costings in anything like the same way as Metro North. If you can't see the bias then you've been sucked into the Irish Times' pompous claim to be the paper of record. Paper of bias, more like

If you were to do a cost/benefit analysis of paying 1.80 for the Irish Times (or any other Irish newspaper) I'm quite sure the ratio would be negative. World news coverage is scant, the opinion pages and editorials are dull as ditchwater and the news coverage is either badly written, boring or biased. The exception to the rule is the Irish edition of the Sunday Times which is a wonderful paper - and it takes an unbiased approach to metro North.

Metrobest

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

What do people make of it all?

No escalators for Ballymun?
What do people think of the Stephens Green station and how the North Line and the Interconnector are combined and connected? Steps going from one platform down to the other? I'm not a lazy fatty but is this cheap engineering on what will be a really heavily used area? I'm not expert and would love to be corrected.

How about the architecture? I haven't really got a grasp of what the station interiors will look like so I'm not commenting on them, but the airport entrance and the drumcondra building look sort of horrendous from the elevations.

Oh, and what will the station entrances look like? I couldn't find designs anywhere

It depends. presumably the height distance between the two plaform levels will be low, and there will be lifts for the elderly, disabled and luggage carriers. Escalators can actually cause a logjam if there is not enough of them because people take longer to find their feet on the moving stairs. Town Hall station is the busiest in Sydney's network and it only has stairs between the different platform levels. Likewise most stations in the Barcelona network have stairs from street level to concourse, then escalators for the longer distance down to the platform. Dublin certainly wouldn't be alone in not having escalators in every station. The superfunky Bilbao metro, opened in 2002, only has stairs in some places (although it does have some nice travelators

I saw four escalators at the airport stop, which looked pretty cool.

monument

Metrobest wrote: »

In other countries the media is much more positive about big projects and doesn't have this dog-with-a-bone attitude to how much the thing will cost; rather the emphasis is on the benefits.

The Irish Times has covered Transport 21 projects with a load of articles which could be seen as positive. Your problem appears to be that they have questioned the costings of the line...

Metrobest wrote: »

As Frank McDonald well knows, the costs won't be known until the tender process is complete so costs are not relevent. And the reason the costs aren't being released yet it to ensure a competitive bidding process.

You're talking bull**** if you're trying to make out that the RPA don't have estimates.

Metrobest wrote: »

Why can't you see it's in the interests of the taxpayer, rather than some sinister trick?

Because the hiding of costs in Transport 21 projects can be directly linked to the cost overruns with projects like the Port Tunnel and the Luas lines.

Metrobest wrote: »

The information Frank McDonald "obtained" was publicly available on the internet and indeed was discussed at length on this forum prior to McDonald's "investigation" so language is being used incorrectly to skew the facts.

Again, you are wrong.

The following was published in an editorial in the Irish Times a day after the main story on costings...

Metro project raises questions
Wed 08 Aug 2007 (now behind the pay wall)
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2007/0808/1186424874490.html

The disclosure in yesterday's Irish Timesthat Dublin's first metro line, from St Stephen's Green to Swords, will cost at least €5 billion and probably much more by the time it is finished is quite stunning. The 17km route, much of it underground, would be the biggest single investment in public infrastructure in the history of the State.

Yet the staggering price tag for Metro North has only surfaced because one of the figures in documents released to this newspaper under the Freedom of Information Act was not blacked out sufficiently to obscure it. And this was nearly two years after the request for access to the documents was first made, a day after the government unveiled its Transport 21 programme in November 2005.

Metrobest wrote: »

The issue is also raised of why McDonald is not going after the interconnector's costings in anything like the same way as Metro North. If you can't see the bias then you've been sucked into the Irish Times' pompous claim to be the paper of record. Paper of bias, more like

Maybe because an estimate of costs has been give for the interconnector while one hasn't for MN?...

Another major benefit - indeed, the raison d'etre for this €2 billion project - would be to bring an end to the historic isolation of Heuston Station, knitting it into a new suburban rail network.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0813/1218477454443.html

Metrobest wrote: »

If you were to do a cost/benefit analysis of paying 1.80 for the Irish Times (or any other Irish newspaper) I'm quite sure the ratio would be negative. World news coverage is scant, the opinion pages and editorials are dull as ditchwater and the news coverage is either badly written, boring or biased. The exception to the rule is the Irish edition of the Sunday Times which is a wonderful paper - and it takes an unbiased approach to metro North.

If you want to discuses the ins and outs of Irish newspapers I'm sure we can take it to the News/Media board. In any case, all the articles in the Irish Times and the Indo can be read online daily for free.

BendiBus

According to todays SBP, the Metro is less & less underground and more & more Luas. Going underground too expensive.

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=36127-qqqx=1.asp

Oh, and Metro West likely to be axed, in case there is anyone left who might have thought otherwise.

noobie

BendiBus wrote: »

According to todays SBP, the Metro is less & less underground and more & more Luas. Going underground too expensive.

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=36127-qqqx=1.asp

Oh, and Metro West likely to be axed, in case there is anyone left who might have thought otherwise.

Surely the section from Ballymun to Stephens Green will have to be underground!?

Also a redesign will delay the project.

BluntGuy

I understand we need to save money, but if they go ahead and do this on the cheap it could have dire consequences in the future.

Better to spend that little bit extra now or delay the project rather than have to make expensive upgrades later on.

As for Metro West, the concept was flawed from the beginning. It's just Luas Line 3!

Nostradamus

BendiBus wrote: »

According to todays SBP, the Metro is less & less underground and more & more Luas. Going underground too expensive.

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=36127-qqqx=1.asp

Oh, and Metro West likely to be axed, in case there is anyone left who might have thought otherwise.

More arse form the ever so impartial Sunday Business Post.

As usual they mention no source. They have been doing this since their almost bordeline psychotic attacks on the Luas during its construction culminating in their now legendary article on the Green line the sunday before services started blaming the Luas for practically everything from AIDS to Phil Lynott's death.

Of course the Sunday Business Post collecting thousands of Euro from CIE for supplements has no bearing on how they report transport issues. Heaven forbid...

D.L.R.

is this reliable? or just bull crap?

markpb

BendiBus wrote: »

According to todays SBP, the Metro is less & less underground and more & more Luas. Going underground too expensive.

Give it a few more months and the DoF will have converted it into a(n on-street) Luas line and DCC will give it zero priority when it's built so the people from Swords will be faster walking to work.

paulm17781

D.L.R. wrote: »

is this reliable? or just bull crap?

I'd say it's more crap. Metro (the free morning rag) also had a similar story. Since most of metro is terrible, I assume their sources are too.

Nostradamus

paulm17781 wrote: »

I'd say it's more crap. Metro (the free morning rag) also had a similar story. Since most of metro is terrible, I assume their sources are too.

The "Bloke Down the Pub".