Spore: Most Pirated Game Ever Thanks to DRM

Maximilian

thelordofcheese wrote: »

I think i've not represented myself very well on this point, it's not that i wouldn't let them use my stuff, it's that i wouldn't like it if someone came into my house with the sole intention of just playing through a single player game on their own.
Like i said, multiplayer, co-op, alt-turns it's all cool. It's personal preference, i think if you're going to someones house then they should be at least included if you start playing games on their shit.
Is that really so strange?
Jesus, i'm a tyrant if you lot are to be believed :P

Yeah I think it's rude too. I mean sure if a mate happened to be over anyway.

I remember a friend of mine coming over many years ago just to play Dune II over a few nights. He would sit there playing through it while I watched TV in another room. I'd have to kick him out at 2 am so I could go to bed. That's rude!

Mind you would I consider it piracy? No. Besides, he didn't own a PC.

L31mr0d

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Does that mean that companies involved are wrong to attempt to protect their products?

No they are not, that was never my issue in the first place. I to believe people who say they pirate to make a point are really just looking for a moral high ground to justify getting something for free.

thelordofcheese wrote: »

And more to the point can i really have any justification for stealing the DVD's and movies?

I really don't think there is and that's pretty much the bulk of my point, if you want something but can't afford it then tough, you can't have it. Save some money or wait untill it's cheaper.
If you disagree with a companies business practice, don't buy their product and definitely don't steal the fucking thing and claim you're making a point.

See, this is my issue, with you refering to it as stealing. I'm trying to show you that under your definition of theft and stealing you yourself are as much a thief for letting others view your DVD's as a person is who rips their DVD and posts it on the internet for others to view.

Piracy is not theft (btw, I think calling it Piracy makes it sound too cool, its one step below calling people who download games Ninjas and the act of downloading as Ninjutsu), you are not stealing something, you are simple making a copy of it, the original article remains unstolen.

Here is where the grey area starts, a person would be ok with showing their family a DVD in their collection, well what if 100 people wanted to view your DVD? what if a million people wanted to view that DVD you bought? Each time you let someone view that DVD without them paying for it you are technically "stealing" revenue from the producers of that movie. But this is an unquantifiable amount because in all likely hood those people would never of paid for that movie. Much like the way I knew I would not pay for a game once I knew one of my friends had already bought it. Sharing of media is a fact of life, before torrents it was p2p, before that it was burning CD's, before that it was audio cassettes and VHS... etc. The only reason it is such a problem now is the scale of it, so because it has ballooned past some arbitrary scale it is now a problem.

Media producers aren't going to stop it, so they need to embrace it. How many audio cassettes would you of bought if on the case it said:

"WARNING: You may put this cassette into only 3 cassette players, after that the cassette will self destruct and you will need to phone to request a replacement"

Maximilian

L31mr0d wrote: »

Here is where the grey area starts, a person would be ok with showing their family a DVD in their collection, well what if 100 people wanted to view your DVD? what if a million people wanted to view that DVD you bought?

It's not really a grey area. If you read the copyright notice before a dvd, it sets out the terms. Private home viewing with your family or friends etc. is perfectly fine. Public showing/ Charging money is not allowed. There are generally exceptions such as for people working on oil rigs etc.

L31mr0d

Maximilian wrote: »

It's not really a grey area. If you read the copyright notice before a dvd, it sets out the terms. Private home viewing with your family or friends etc. is perfectly fine. Public showing/ Charging money is not allowed. There are generally exceptions such as for people working on oil rigs etc.

It's not a grey area for the companies who make the copyrights, but its a moral grey area for the people who purchase the media. My wife sent me plenty of mix tapes when we where dating of music in her collection and I did likewise, now technically we where breaking the law but did we ever think it? No, not once did we think we where "stealing" anything or being a "thief". I've lent games, DVD's and CD's to numerous people over the years without thought, my parents in turn used to lend their LP's to their friends.

I know my friends in Canada lend their pickup truck to whoever needs it to move stuff, do they imagine by lending their truck to someone that they are stealing money from the car manufacturers? I doubt it.

People exchange, copy and lend things. We have always done it, we will always do it. The only difference between that mix tape I sent my wife and now is that I can now share it with a billion people. I don't believe the actual sharing is the issue, its the scale of it.

developers need to accept that this is the way it is now, it cannot be stopped by brute force tactics such as DRM. Gaming companies seem to be so obsessed with pissing off the consumer that they ignore the fact that they should be pissing off the pirate.

If EA created a yearly subscription service where I pay, say, €25 a month, and that gives me access to insider news and trailers, the ability to preload games prior to release, unlimited downloads and installs of my games, exclusive beta testing and demo access, and stable, reliable 1Gb down servers then i'd sign up for it. They could limit the subscription to allowing me download a max of 4 games a month, or 48 games a year, with unused games downloads from previous months rolling over to the next.

Maximilian

L31mr0d wrote: »

It's not a grey area for the companies who make the copyrights, but its a moral grey area for the people who purchase the media. My wife sent me plenty of mix tapes when we where dating of music in her collection and I did likewise, now technically we where breaking the law but did we ever think it? No, not once did we think we where "stealing" anything or being a "thief". I've lent games, DVD's and CD's to numerous people over the years without thought, my parents in turn used to lend their LP's to their friends.

I know my friends in Canada lend their pickup truck to whoever needs it to move stuff, do they imagine by lending their truck to someone that they are stealing money from the car manufacturers? I doubt it.

People exchange, copy and lend things. We have always done it, we will always do it. The only difference between that mix tape I sent my wife and now is that I can now share it with a billion people. I don't believe the actual sharing is the issue, its the scale of it.

developers need to accept that this is the way it is now, it cannot be stopped by brute force tactics such as DRM. Gaming companies seem to be so obsessed with pissing off the consumer that they ignore the fact that they should be pissing off the pirate.

If EA created a yearly subscription service where I pay, say, €25 a month, and that gives me access to insider news and trailers, the ability to preload games prior to release, unlimited downloads and installs of my games, exclusive beta testing and demo access, and stable, reliable 1Gb down servers then i'd sign up for it. They could limit the subscription to allowing me download a max of 4 games a month, or 48 games a year, with unused games downloads from previous months rolling over to the next.

I doubt there is a single person, short of those living in a cave or comatose, who hasn't infringed copyright at some point.

By the way - the mix tape thing? I got sick in my mouth a little bit :pac:

L31mr0d

Maximilian wrote: »

By the way - the mix tape thing? I got sick in my mouth a little bit :pac:

lol, what's funny is the mix tapes are all heavy metal, rock and heavy rock music

MooseJam

thelordofcheese wrote: »

If you disagree with a companies business practice, don't buy their product and definitely don't steal the fucking thing and claim you're making a point.

it's not stealing, it's copyright infringement , there is no product, it's just ones and zeros

thelordofcheese

MooseJam wrote: »

it's not stealing, it's copyright infringement , there is no product, it's just ones and zeros

Really, tell that to the developers.
Tell the people who bust their asses to make these games you seem to think you're entitled to enjoy without paying for them that it's "copyright infringement" and "there is no product".

MooseJam

thats a bit emotional tbh, I doubt anyones ass gets bust, I'm sure they all have a fun time and I'm pretty sure none of the spore developers will be going without dinner tonight

Pete4779

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Really, tell that to the developers.
Tell the people who bust their asses to make these games you seem to think you're entitled to enjoy without paying for them that it's "copyright infringement" and "there is no product".

Buried deep down behind online activation, DRM installation restrictions, requirements for checking you own it after you purchase it, EULAs you can't read before inserting the disc and breaking the seal on the box.....yeah, I suppose deep down there is a product in there, somewhere.

Maybe if the product was sold like other digital products such as movies and music, these self-righteous consumers would be quiet.

MooseJam

yea there's no drm crap on CD's imagine being told you can only play it in three CD players or it would stop working, and music pirating is far bigger than games ever was

ShadowHearth

tman wrote: »

So my copy of the game arrived yesterday, installed without any issue, created my EA account and away I went. (Pretty damn good game it is too, but that's for another thread...)

While I agree that limiting you to one EA account per CD key is a terrible move, the rest of this is really getting blown out of proportion, mostly by people who wouldn't pay for the game in the first place anyway and are just trying to assuage their guilt.
Who the hell would need to install it on more than 3 PCs? I'm sure EA support could do something about that too if needs be, and I bet that number will be increased ala Bioshock in the not too distant future.

Anybody that's using this as an excuse to pirate the game really needs to cop the **** on and be a bit more honest with themselves.

dude, you fail...

I need to be able install game more then 1-3 times. And not becouse of piracy. Thats why pc gaming dies aswell. becouse of darn DRM.

Imagine that: you bought your copy of fallout 2 10 years ago, and now you feel like playing it. But hey, you cant play it, even when you have cd. Becouse you installed it on your old pc which you had 10 years ago. And you used your key then.

so basicly we now just have a usless box with disc of spore. And we wount be able to add it to our game collection, becouse we wount be able to play it after 10 years.

this is stupid idea which just puts more poeple from PC gaming, end of story. And now moust of people are mad not becouse they cant pirate it. But becouse they got screwed.

Poeple who pirate will pirate with no problem at all. Numbers showing it allready. At this possition, us who buying legal copies getting arse banged.

TomCo

yesh

steviec

ShadowHearth wrote: »

dude, you fail...

I need to be able install game more then 1-3 times. And not becouse of piracy. Thats why pc gaming dies aswell. becouse of darn DRM.

Imagine that: you bought your copy of fallout 2 10 years ago, and now you feel like playing it. But hey, you cant play it, even when you have cd. Becouse you installed it on your old pc which you had 10 years ago. And you used your key then.

so basicly we now just have a usless box with disc of spore. And we wount be able to add it to our game collection, becouse we wount be able to play it after 10 years.

this is stupid idea which just puts more poeple from PC gaming, end of story. And now moust of people are mad not becouse they cant pirate it. But becouse they got screwed.

Poeple who pirate will pirate with no problem at all. Numbers showing it allready. At this possition, us who buying legal copies getting arse banged.

Yea but that's not what will happen, because every game that has these kind of limitations gets a patch released after a certain amount of time removing the limitation, for exactly that reason.

I don't particularly agree with the install limit anyway, but it's still no excuse to pirate. Especially when anyone who knows how to pirate knows how to crack their legally purchased copy to get around the limit just as easily.

ShadowHearth

steviec wrote: »

Yea but that's not what will happen, because every game that has these kind of limitations gets a patch released after a certain amount of time removing the limitation, for exactly that reason.

I don't particularly agree with the install limit anyway, but it's still no excuse to pirate. Especially when anyone who knows how to pirate knows how to crack their legally purchased copy to get around the limit just as easily.

Dont know about patches. We dont have any game that got that patch so far. And i really doubt that such greedy company like EA will do it.

And about pirates. Pirates will allways find the way how to crack games. And look whats happening now. Spore is the moust cracked game atm. And i think they crack it even more, to slap EAs face.

In all this, i will repeat, lossing only we, people who buy those legal copies.

now lets look at piracy it self. I am not irish. I am lithuanian, and while i was there, i was downloading games. Now before trashing me, hear this:

In lithuania minimum wage was 100eu per month, And legal copy of game: 70eu. Do i need to explain now, why i was downloading games?

Now i live in ireland, and i can afford legal copies of games, i havent downloaded a single illegal copy in 3 years.

So before bashing all pirates, think about it, do they really that bast**ds, or they just do it, becouse they have no choice.

p.s. if you will suggest something like: " your problem dude, dont play games in lithuania or start starving and buy a legal copy" i will really whant to smack that person in to face with huge fish.

TomCo

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Dont know about patches. We dont have any game that got that patch so far. And i really doubt that such greedy company like EA will do it.

Bioshock did, after it met sales targets I believe.

Pyr0

TomCo wrote: »

Bioshock did, after it met sales targets I believe.

Pretty quickly might I add.

thelordofcheese

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Dont know about patches. We dont have any game that got that patch so far. And i really doubt that such greedy company like EA will do it.

And about pirates. Pirates will allways find the way how to crack games. And look whats happening now. Spore is the moust cracked game atm. And i think they crack it even more, to slap EAs face.

In all this, i will repeat, lossing only we, people who buy those legal copies.

now lets look at piracy it self. I am not irish. I am lithuanian, and while i was there, i was downloading games. Now before trashing me, hear this:

In lithuania minimum wage was 100eu per month, And legal copy of game: 70eu. Do i need to explain now, why i was downloading games?

Now i live in ireland, and i can afford legal copies of games, i havent downloaded a single illegal copy in 3 years.

So before bashing all pirates, think about it, do they really that bast**ds, or they just do it, becouse they have no choice.

p.s. if you will suggest something like: " your problem dude, dont play games in lithuania or start starving and buy a legal copy" i will really whant to smack that person in to face with huge fish.

Rubbish,
You don't NEED games, they are a luxury item, you can't justify stealing them because they were expensive.
Of course you had a choice. You could have saved and bought the games legally, or you could have stole them.
You chose the second option, but don't pretend like it was some kind of horrific injustice visited upon you that forced you to steal the games.
It's not like you weren't going to die without that a copy of Doom3, now were you?

L31mr0d

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Rubbish,
You don't NEED games, they are a luxury item, you can't justify stealing them because they were expensive.
Of course you had a choice. You could have saved and bought the games legally, or you could have stole them.
You chose the second option, but don't pretend like it was some kind of horrific injustice visited upon you that forced you to steal the games.
It's not like you weren't going to die without that a copy of Doom3, now were you?

*sigh* maybe a diagram will help you

thelordofcheese

L31mr0d wrote: »

*sigh* maybe a diagram will help you

Your taking something that doesn't belong to you, what would you call that?

Canis Lupus

Despite the fact that you're mad thinking Spore is a good game Mr Cheese (I've spent the last 3 days in space basically repeating the same thing over and over again) I'm totally with you on this one. Piracy is theft. Doesn't matter what reason someone uses to justify it it's simply theft.

In fact.... I'm not sure why the downloaders are trying to justify their position. It's theft, it's wrong but no one here can stop you or really cares about it all save the companies who make the games. You'll either get caught or you won't but don't try and make it look like you're not doing something wrong.

L31mr0d

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Your taking something that doesn't belong to you, what would you call that?

Nothing is being taken. If I went into the Louvre and painted an exact replica of the Mona Lisa would you define that as "theft" of that painting? By making a copy of something you have not stolen it, which is why they use a different term for it. Someone who makes a copy of something is committing Piracy, not Theft.

Maximilian

Canis Lupus wrote: »

In fact.... I'm not sure why the downloaders are trying to justify their position. It's theft, it's wrong but no one here can stop you or really cares about it all save the companies who make the games. You'll either get caught or you won't but don't try and make it look like you're not doing something wrong.

You know we should care. Piracy is throttling the life out of PC gaming. Developer are moving over to consoles. How much is the fault of piracy I don't know but it's worrying.

ID for example, one of the great PC developers is now making games primarily for consoles. In fact they said they have cut out material from their new game, Rage, scaled it down, so it would fit on the XBox 360.

Maximilian

L31mr0d wrote: »

Nothing is being taken. If I went into the Louvre and painted an exact replica of the Mona Lisa would you define that as "theft" of that painting? By making a copy of something you have not stolen it, which is why they use a different term for it. Someone who makes a copy of something is committing Piracy, not Theft.

I understand what you are trying to say but you are wrong I'm afraid. Of course piracy is stealing. It's pretty much the (non-legal) definition of it - two of which are:

1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force:
2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.

It is irrelevant whether the original copy remains after the piracy. If your logic was correct, then it is impossible to steal intellectual property.

thelordofcheese

L31mr0d wrote: »

Nothing is being taken. If I went into the Louvre and painted an exact replica of the Mona Lisa would you define that as "theft" of that painting? By making a copy of something you have not stolen it, which is why they use a different term for it. Someone who makes a copy of something is committing Piracy, not Theft.

Faulty analogy. Nobody is producing mona lisas (or any other classic painting) and making a living from selling them.
Your pixel perfect replica isn't taking away from anyones earnings.
The closest thing your analogy would come to would be legal abandonware.


It's a nice little semantic argument, but it's meaningless in real terms.
Piracy is theft.

Mr Bloat

This is a very entertaining discussion!
The way I see it, whether someone who downloads a game/album/tv show/whatever is a thief or not isn't going to make one whit of a difference in most people's minds when they go to do the act. The fact is, downloading is easy, free and it's highly unlikely you'll be caught. Morally, it's wrong, yes. We all know that, just as we know that smoking kills. But we still do it. It's human nature to be materialistic and to want what others have. If Jimmy Gamer gets paid on a Friday and says, 'Right, I can afford to either buy Spore or go for pints. Or, I can download Spore while I'm in the pub!', which will most people choose?

The only way piracy is going to stop is to either make it too difficult to do it or have repercussions for doing it. It's like speeding on the roads - most people want to do it but most of us don't because the risk of being caught is high and the penalties imposed make us realise that the act isn't worth the chance of getting caught. I know that in the states you can get a 'cease and desist' email from your ISP if they are alerted that you are downloading certain material. That's more difficult to enforce outside of the states but that's what's going to have to happen if piracy is going to be combatted properly.

Anybody who takes the moral highground over downloading has either very high principles or enough money to buy what others are downloading. If you're broke but can say 'I'm not downloading x because it's wrong', then fair play to you. Most people won't do that though, unless the repercussions of the act are enough to make them think again about it.

thelordofcheese

Mr Bloat wrote: »

Anybody who takes the moral highground over downloading has either very high principles or enough money to buy what others are downloading.

Or secret option C, is able to budget for the games they really want, and know how to shop around.
At €60 for a game (is it really that high now? bloody hell), you'd have to be shitting money to be able to afford more than a single release every other month. People can't really blame the high prices of games if they aren't willing to look around and find stuff cheaper.

Fanny Cradock

L31mr0d wrote: »

Nothing is being taken. If I went into the Louvre and painted an exact replica of the Mona Lisa would you define that as "theft" of that painting? By making a copy of something you have not stolen it, which is why they use a different term for it. Someone who makes a copy of something is committing Piracy, not Theft.

You are correct, of course; piracy and theft are not the same thing. They are both, however, illegal.

MooseJam

so is Jaywalking

Mr Bloat

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Or secret option C, is able to budget for the games they really want, and know how to shop around.
At €60 for a game (is it really that high now? bloody hell), you'd have to be shitting money to be able to afford more than a single release every other month. People can't really blame the high prices of games if they aren't willing to look around and find stuff cheaper.

But that's my point. I believe that most people will shop around for a game or two a month that they really want but then they'll go and pirate the rest. It's not just that games are expensive (and, in fairness, they are expensive but I don't think unjustly so), it's that piracy is easy-peasy with no repercussions.

Most people won't have the patience or the principles to shop around for every game they want, especially when it's so easy to get hold of for free.

Look at console gaming. It isn't terribly easy to pirate console games unless you void your warranty and take the chance of damaging your console by soldering a chip on it. So, console game piracy happens but not on the grand scale of pc games. Console games are usually way more expensive than pc games but most people have to budget to buy the game they really want because the drawbacks of console piracy (for most) will outweigh the benefits. An exception to that is the DS and the R4 type chips, where it's very easy to get the game and play it. Thus, DS piracy is rampant, everyone I know with a DS has a R4 type chip.

All the moral arguments in the world won't sway the majority into doing 'what's right' unless there are repercussions for not doing it. If you took the Gardai away tomorrow, how long would it be before society went bananas and we all start eating each other? People need to be threatened with a stick before they do what's right, the carrot is too easy to ignore.