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Infraction Appeal - Thank You

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  • 14-09-2008 10:19pm
    #1
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭


    I wish to appeal my infraction that I received in PI this afternoon. I'm not sure if there is any point in this as I have seen complaints by users in feedback being ripped apart by mods in the past. Here goes nothing...

    Here is the post that was infracted - Back Seat Modding.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=57249286

    The only reason why I can think of is that I suggested a new poster read the charter. In the thread, I had reported a post from Ian Curtis. I stated that publically (I actually thought you were meant to do this as I have seen it a lot around here). A new user told me to get off my high horse for attacking Ian Curtis' opinion. That's when I suggested a read of the charter. I chose to say that publically as I didn't want the OP to think that 'views' such as that of Ian Curtis were common. She was feeling bad enough as it was. I wanted her to know that basically he is a regular flamer without actually saying so or saying a lot.

    When I asked Thaed to clarify if this was what the problem was, she then said it was off topic posting. She also said that my post didn't refer back to the OP - it actually did. This is highlighted below:

    OP, having read through the responses, how do you feel now? Have you gained any further perspective on the situation?

    So now I don't know what I am being infracted for.

    I think it was very harsh and I have seen many people get away with a lot 'worse' in PI.

    As a regular poster in PI, I am really irritated by this infraction. I genuinely care and try always to post good advice. If you read through my previous posts, you will see that. The poster who told me to get off my high horse was a new user. I directed him to the charter - does that deserve an infraction? I wasn't aware of that if it did. A warning would have been sufficient.

    Only last night I posted on this thread in feedback - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055377413 saying how well it is moderated. I also said that I agreed with a previous infraction (it wasn't given to me by Thaedydal btw). So I am not moaning for the sake of moaning. If I do something wrong, then okay. But I do think an infraction was way over the top for what I said.

    There seems to be a lot of inconsistencies re banning, warning and infracting on PI. And I just do not understand it. Why do some mods warn, others outright ban and others infract? It's not fair.

    If this post comes across as harsh or defensive, then I apologise to both you reading it and to Thaedydal herself.

    But I am very annoyed over this. I genuinely try to help in this forum. I am not a troublesome poster. I do not think I deserve an infraction.

    Thanks for reading and I look forward to your responses.

    Tri

    *I have edited this post as I had posted links that i'm not sure were acceptable. As a precaution, I have removed them*


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    #2
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Dear Mods,

    It has been two days since I have posted re my infraction. Is there any update at all?

    If someone could even tell me that it's being looked into, I would appreciate it.

    Thanks,
    Tri


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    #3
    Ruu_Old
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36,634 ✭✭✭✭Ruu_Old


    Warnings and infractions are used at the moderators discretion and it is their call, different forums allow a little more and PI would be one of those closely monitored as you may have found out. There were a lot of off topic posts, those criticising Ian Curtis posting and others which I would agree the best action would be reporting the post and leave the actions to the moderators. Off topic posting seems to be a big issue with PI threads and is enforced strongly. Also a suggestion made was to put the poster on ignore if you knew he was a troll, was a good one.

    Your original post made was one of backseat modding (post where you received the infraction), however good your intentions, and you edited it to include a message to the OP. I would assume that is what the infraction is for. I can allow Thaedydal access to the Helpdesk if you wish to discuss further.


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    #4
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Hi Ruu,

    Thanks for your response.

    I think Thaedydal already has access to the helpdesk so she may respond if she wishes.

    My issue is that there seems to be no consistency in PI. Last night, Wibbs gave a general warning on a thread without infracting any user. But Thaedydal chose to infract my post without any warning. I know Moderators are not obliged to warn but can you see my issue with inconsistency here? You just never know and I think that's really unfair. It appears that you could post exactly the same thing one day and you would be fine. The next day, you would get an infraction. This makes it increasingly difficult to exercise 'good behaviour' on the forum - cos you don't know what constitutes 'bad' behaviour.

    If it is plain to see that my intentions were good, then why, ultimately am I being punished? Would you not agree that that is a little strong?

    For the record, I actually did report Ian Curtis' post. But I also chose to publically state I did.

    It is correct that I edited my post - the one that addressed the OP. And the reason why I did that was because I realised that I had erred. That post would have been off-topic if it had not related back to the OP - I completely agree. But the fact is, it did. I asked her how she was feeling now etc.

    So, can I just clarify. Having explained the above, can I ask... Where did I backseat mod? (I did report the post that I had an issue with) and where was my post off topic? (I related it back to the OP).

    Thanks for your help.

    Tri


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    #5
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    This point would be your backseat modding:
    Perhaps a read of the charter would serve you well?

    It was neither a helpful nor a constructive comment the the OP.
    As you know, an infraction is ultimately inconsequential, it's simply a reminder or warning to keep within the rules.

    I'm not going to pretend that moderation is 100% consistent. Particularly on busy forums, moderators don't get to see every post, and rely very heavily on post reports to highlight problem posts. Moderator styles can also vary (one may issue a general warning, another may opt to infract everyone) and there's not a whole lot we can do about this. It still works :)

    Since you've acknowledged you made a mistake, perhaps Thaed may ask for the infraction to be lifted.


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    #6
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Hi Seamus,

    Thanks very much for your response.

    I now see the issue... However, I have read posts before where one poster directs others to the charter for useful websites, phone numbers and so on. As the user was new - I directed him to the charter so as to illustrate the reason why I reported Ian Curtis.

    If this is classed as backseat modding, then I wholeheartedly apologise to the mods and to Thaedydal in particular.

    I assure that in future, I will leave those sorts of comments to the mods. I will just report the posts in future.

    It was an honest mistake but I acknowledge and accept it. I know that an infraction is hardly a ban but you only need 9 points to get a ban (not suggesting that I won't be behaving myself in future - :))... I don't particularly want 'penalty points' on my profile... ya know?

    Thaedydal, if you are reading - due to the fact that I have acknowledged my mistake and have apologised, can I get my infraction lifted please? I promise to be more careful in future. I would also like to apologise for PM'ing you a second time when after the first one, you directed me here to helpdesk.

    Thanks to all for your help on this.

    Tri;)


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    #7
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Tri wrote: »
    Thaedydal, if you are reading - due to the fact that I have acknowledged my mistake and have apologised,

    Ok, thank you for that.

    Tri wrote: »
    can I get my infraction lifted please?

    Why ?
    The point you got will automatically expire in 10 days from when it was given out it is not permanent.


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    #8
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Ok, thank you for that.




    Why ?
    The point you got will automatically expire in 10 days from when it was given out it is not permanent.
    Is it not permanent? I thought though, if you got 9 infractions ever, they stay on your record and ultimately lead to a ban? Mods can see my history of infractions forever. And to a mod that doesn't know me, wouldn't an infraction suggest that i'm a troublesome poster?

    If you could just clarify if the above is correct or not, that would be great.

    If what I said is incorrect, then i'll take the infraction. I'm not THAT anal.;)


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    #9
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Intraction points expire after 10 days, you would need to get 9 points in 10 days to get to the point where you get an automatic site ban.

    Having one expired infraction is not a big deal, if you had 5 or more and there was a history of bans from forums ( yes we can check ban history as well ) then that would indicate a troublesome poster. But some posters only are troublesome/bothersome in certain forums and mods will base thier opinion usualy on how you post in thier forums.


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    #10
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Intraction points expire after 10 days, you would need to get 9 points in 10 days to get to the point where you get an automatic site ban.

    Having one expired infraction is not a big deal, if you had 5 or more and there was a history of bans from forums ( yes we can check ban history as well ) then that would indicate a troublesome poster. But some posters only are troublesome/bothersome in certain forums and mods will base thier opinion usualy on how you post in thier forums.
    Okay, thanks Thaedydal for clearing that up.

    Is your final decision not to remove the infraction then?

    I know it's not a major thing but I didn't realise my post was worthy of an infraction at the time. I'm afraid this will happen again and i'll wind up with another, then another. And then i'll look like trouble. Do you know what I mean?

    I honestly didn't realise my post would be construed as back seat modding or off topic. I promise to be more mindful in the future.

    So, what do you think?

    Thanks for your responses so far.;)


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    #11
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    You earned, the infraction the appeal was upheld, just learn from it.
    If you don't break the rules on any of the forums you won't earn another one.
    I don't see the point of pestering an smod/admin to remove a valid infraction for vanities sake.


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    #12
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    I don't see the point of pestering an smod/admin to remove a valid infraction for vanities sake.

    Firstly Thaedydal - I did not pester anyone.

    Secondly - it was not a valid infraction. You accused me of not addressing the OP in my post - that was actually wrong of you. You then accused me of back seat modding - but I never saw you infract anyone who referred a poster to the charter besides me. Isn't the charter there for all new posters to read? And me directing a new poster to the charter is back seat modding? Well I never. I'd also like to add that two of your fellow PI mods disagree with me being infracted for this.

    Thirdly - vanity? What exactly are you on??

    I will leave it there as I could not be bothered to argue with you. I don't know why you thought it necessary to post such a snotty response. It's uncalled for Thaedydal and I don't know why you take such pleasure in saying nasty things.

    It appears that mods can throw around infractions whenever they want - even if it was an innocent mistake on the poster's part. It doesnt seem to matter if they take full responsibility for them and apologise over and over again. it's a bad system to have that the mod is ALWAYS deemed correct.


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    #13
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Tri wrote: »
    And me directing a new poster to the charter is back seat modding?

    You were back seat modding. You got infracted for it. The infraction is there for warning only, it will be gone in a few days.
    Relax.
    Well I never. I'd also like to add that two of your fellow PI mods disagree with me being infracted for this.

    As I'm only just back from two weeks holidays, you'll have to post up a link to where they state their disagreement, thanks.
    I don't know why you thought it necessary to post such a snotty response. It's uncalled for Thaedydal and I don't know why you take such pleasure in saying nasty things.

    I honestly cannot see where Thaed is being snotty or nasty.
    It doesnt seem to matter if they take full responsibility for them and apologise over and over again.

    Apologising after the fact does not mean the infraction is automatically lifted.
    It just shows that the poster infracted has manners and understands why they were infracted. Something all mods welcome.
    it's a bad system to have that the mod is ALWAYS deemed correct.

    Incorrect statement.
    They are not, which has been proven time and time again on this site.


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    #14
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Tri wrote: »
    Firstly Thaedydal - I did not pester anyone.

    I can not lift/remove the infraction.
    I would have to go and pester/bother an admin or an smod to remove it.

    Tri wrote: »
    Secondly - it was not a valid infraction. You accused me of not addressing the OP in my post - that was actually wrong of you. You then accused me of back seat modding - but I never saw you infract anyone who referred a poster to the charter besides me. Isn't the charter there for all new posters to read? And me directing a new poster to the charter is back seat modding? Well I never.

    Ah so even after it has expired and your attempt to sweet talk me here and via pms have failed to have it removed you have gone back to refuting the infraction.
    Tri wrote: »
    I'd also like to add that two of your fellow PI mods disagree with me being infracted for this.

    Post links please.

    Tri wrote: »
    Thirdly - vanity? What exactly are you on??

    That is the only reason I can think of for wanting a prestine infraction record that only mods can see.

    Tri wrote: »
    I will leave it there as I could not be bothered to argue with you. I don't know why you thought it necessary to post such a snotty response. It's uncalled for Thaedydal and I don't know why you take such pleasure in saying nasty things.

    I wasn't snotty, I have tried to be fair with you even after your cloying and ingratiating pms pestering me to respond to this thread.

    Tri wrote: »
    It appears that mods can throw around infractions whenever they want - even if it was an innocent mistake on the poster's part. It doesnt seem to matter if they take full responsibility for them and apologise over and over again. it's a bad system to have that the mod is ALWAYS deemed correct.

    Which is it ?
    Well either you are innocent or you do take responsibility for your action.


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    #15
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    You were back seat modding. You got infracted for it. The infraction is there for warning only, it will be gone in a few days.
    Relax.
    I know that Beruthiel but I honestly didn't see my mistake at the time. If that were to happen again, any mod going into my profile and seeing infractions will think i'm trouble. And they never go away. They are always visible in your profile for any mod to see.

    The above comes across as 'vain' to Thaedydal. I'm not being 'vain'. I though that comment was a little nasty. That's the nastiness I was referring to.

    As I'm only just back from two weeks holidays, you'll have to post up a link to where they state their disagreement, thanks.
    I cannot do that, i'm afraid. They are in PM's. I maybe should not have said that if I cannot prove it. But again, it just annoys me that if one particular mod is on, you won't get infracted for saying something. But if someone else is on, you will. There is no consistency and in PI, especially, its sometimes really hard to see the wood for the trees. I do understand though that it's a hard forum to moderate.

    Apologising after the fact does not mean the infraction is automatically lifted.
    It just shows that the poster infracted has manners and understands why they were infracted. Something all mods welcome.
    Well I am apologising should I have been in the wrong. I was trying to be courteous etc. I know that that doesn't give me automatic rights to have my infraction overturned. But seriously, I honestly didn't think I did anything wrong. Surely if I hold my hands up and say 'if that's is what constitutes back-seat modding, then i'm sorry' - that should account for something. Even above, Seamus says, if it was an honest mistake, PM the mod to explain. I did and still nothing. And then I am accused of 'pestering'. I did not pester anyone and I don't know why Thaed is saying I am. That was also nasty.


    Incorrect statement.
    They are not, which has been proven time and time again on this site.
    I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here, Beruthiel. Granted, I haven't been in feedback or helpdesk much but from what I can see, bans and infractions are rarely overturned.

    I am not here to make enemies with anyone. I would hate for that to happen. I will have to accept the infraction I suppose. But I am still pretty p1ssed off about it.

    I hope you enjoyed your holiday Beruthiel. Thanks to all for your help.


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    #16
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Then I suggest you as those who pmed you for permission to post up the pms.


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    #17
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    I can not lift/remove the infraction.
    I would have to go and pester/bother an admin or an smod to remove it.

    Ah so even after it has expired and your attempt to sweet talk me here and via pms have failed to have it removed you have gone back to refuting the infraction.
    This is just getting ridiculous now. I don't know why you are accusing me of 'sweet talking' you. Are you that cynical? Is it not possible that I realised my initial PM's to you were not exactly pleasant. Is it not possible that I was genuinely sorry for them and wanted to talk to you in a friendlier manner? I still think the infraction was a little strong. I am just sorry for the mistake. It's a mistake that you say i've made. So I take responsibility for it. I do not agree with it, however. Hence the appeal. It doesn't mean that i'm not sorry for the way it came across or that I don't take responsibility. But there is a difference of opinion here. I have seen your side and I wanted you to see mine.


    Post links please.
    I cannot do that as they were PM's. In this case, as I cannot prove it, I should not have mentioned this. For that, I apologise.



    That is the only reason I can think of for wanting a prestine infraction record that only mods can see.
    So, it's an assumption then? Who wants to look like trouble on this site? Not me. Especially for infractions I don't feel I deserve. Does that make me 'vain'? Well alrighty then.



    I wasn't snotty, I have tried to be fair with you even after your cloying and ingratiating pms pestering me to respond to this thread.
    When did I 'pester' you, Thaedydal. I didn't realise you were so sensitive. I sent you a very nice PM, asking you if you wouldn't mind taking a look at this thread and giving a final response... Pestering? Give me a break.
    And what's this 'cloying' you speak of?? You make me sound like some sort of vulture. A bit far fetched, don't you think?


    Which is it ?
    Well either you are innocent or you do take responsibility for your action.
    I've said it above. I feel the infraction was not deserved by me. I did address the OP in the post, you said I didn't. You said I was back seat modding, I don't agree. Hence the appeal.

    I see your side of the argument, Thaedydal. If it came across that way to you, then ok. I have to take responsibility for that and I also have expressed my regret for that.

    I still don't feel I deserve an infraction for it though. It was a genuine 'mistake'.

    If I directed a new poster to the charter to get, say, a number for an STI clinic - would that be back seat modding?

    If not, then why is it back seat modding for referring a new poster to the charter to read the rules? That poster took direct issue with my post re reporting Ian Curtis for bad behaviour. Why wouldn't I direct him to the rules so that he can see what's accepted in PI? That would also explain me reporting Ian Curtis' post.


    Anyway, look. You can think i'm vain if you like. You can of me as some cloying, pestering pain - that's quite okay too.

    I came on here to appeal an infraction. Not to accused of all sorts.

    Just forget it. I honestly could not be bothered with this anymore.

    Thanks for replying - and I mean that genuinely. It's not an attempt to sweet talk you.


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    #18
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Then I suggest you as those who pmed you for permission to post up the pms.
    Sure. I have requested permission so we'l see what happens. I'll understand if I get a no response though. I don't want to cause trouble here.


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    #19
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Original Post:
    [post]57249286[/post]
    Smyth wrote: »
    Pray tell, what is the point in that? He's voicing his opinion on the matter.
    Get off your high horse.
    Read back on previous posts concerning this user before telling me to get off any horse. Perhaps a read of the charter would serve you well?

    that is the section of the post which you earned the infraction for.
    Read back on previous posts concerning this user before telling me to get off any horse.

    Was off topic and not helpful to the op and you should have reported the post rather then enguage in tit for tat with the poster.
    Perhaps a read of the charter would serve you well?

    Is back seat modding instead of reporting the post, alas I could only have infracted the post once, maybe I should have given you a 1 week ban for it.


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    #20
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Have a look at this thread Thaed. Tit for tat central.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055378332&page=4

    Any infractions? Nope. Just a warning. Titting and tatting all over the place.

    See where i'm going with inconsistencies here?

    You know what? Nevermind. It doesn't matter that it was a mistake, it doesn't matter that i've apologised over and over again.

    Instead - i'm now vain, a sweet talker, a pest and my infraction stays in place.

    In my first post when I made my appeal, I said that there prob wasn't much point in appealing my infraction as it rarely makes a difference. Looks like I was right.

    Yes you could have given me a week ban. Instead of threatening me with it, why not? I wont be posting in PI again. It's a complete minefield.


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    #21
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    I am not wading through a thread which is 3 pages long at 40 posts per page, if you have point to me re certain posts you want looked at link to them, if you feel they were out of order when you read them why didn't you report them ?

    I don't read every single thread in PI, I do my best, I respond to reported posts if others have not gotten to a thread before me.

    Yes some PI mods are more lenient then others, some of us have been doing it longer then others, we do have different modding styles.

    So your complaint is that I moderated that thread rather then say Wibbs and because I choose to issue an infraction in line with the charter and the rules for the forum you are saying I am wrong ?


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    #22
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Hi Thaedydal,

    Listen, this has gone on long enough. I am just going to accept the infraction. I probably should have done so from the start.

    My intentions were honestly good so that is why I chose to appeal.

    I don't want to cause sh1t with this. And I apologise to anyone caught up in it.

    We will just agree to disagree on this, Thaedydal. For what it's worth, I know PI must be a nightmare to moderate and I think you all do a good job.

    I've said before - I don't want to argue with anyone or cause any sh1t so it's probably just best to leave it now.

    Thanks to everyone for their responses. Over and out.:cool:


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