Tail-end charlie's...

Trojan

I'm way too competitive (with myself) to tail for more than 5-10 seconds to get enough momentum to pass. Also I know nothing about group riding.

petethedrummer

scottreynolds wrote: »

Only advisable if you can definitely drop them ....... in case they say fine I'll tail you all the way home.

oh deary. never though about that.

fergalr

So me and my mate were out for a spin on Sat avo, we passed a fella on a mountain bike at a set of traffic lights and carried on without a thought, about a mile or two later we realised he was sitting on our wheel and at a set of red lights he drifted past us and took off, we caught him pretty quick and passed him again and sure enough after another few miles we could hear him back on our wheels, just when it was starting to get annoying he turned left and off he went.

I presume this is in the city (due to fairly frequent mention of traffic lights, and the fact that mtb was keeping with the pair of roadies)

So, the first time you passed this guy, it was a mile or two before you realized he was sitting on your wheel. Sounds like he wasn't that obtrusive, then?

He caught you again because you stopped at the lights - it is very frustrating when you have to keep leapfrogging people because they break the lights and you don't. But the red-light-leapfrogging thing aside, I really don't know what you are complaining about... It doesn't sound like the cyclist was particularly obtrusive to you, or causing much harm - it took you a while to notice he was there the first time, and you only had to pass him once?

Well it'd be gas if one of the charlies was a member here but I still don't think it'd excuse anything, for me its a bit of a cardinal sin not to take your turn

People commute on bikes, and they should be able to do so without having to comply with a complex system of etiquette, of which they probably are completely unaware of.
If it was a cycle race or similar, where the other guy might reasonably be expected to know the finer points of cycling etiquette, maybe it'd be a cardinal sin then, but I think the general attitude in this thread is way too harsh.


We should be encouraging people to cycle more in the city, and be happy that it's another cyclist on the roads. We should not be complaining about them not taking their turn in a way that really doesn't affect us - so what if they draft a bit?
Really, if the guy is annoying you, either let him stay ahead of you when he gets ahead, or drop him...

Could you not just turn aroud and say 'get off my tail' ?

Is this really a fair comment? Generally, when car drivers voice sentiments like this, as cyclists we are the first to say 'you don't own the road'...

It pretty simple -- if someones ridding your wheel... put the breaks on a little and often.... first time you'll scare the living crap out of them.

This is a terrible thing to do, to maliciously scare someone who might just trying to be to get from A to B, maybe not a particularly experienced cyclist, not a roadie, out on their mountain bike, just trying to get the hang of cycling.
It's completely not warranted just because according to a particular flavour of road cycling etiquette they didnt take their turn.

Just pull your trousers down and take a dump.
Should clear any tailgaters.

This is clearly (hopefully?) in jest, but in line with some of the other comments, it's not a very welcoming and understanding sentiment.



People angry with the red light breaking and leapfrogging thing, I get.
People annoyed at being drafted in traffic? Either drop back, or pull away, or put up with it - and maybe try and be a bit welcoming and supportive of other people out cycling... someone following you really doesn't inconvenience you all that much... (at least as described in the OP)
We all get annoyed by little things, but it's a hostile enough environment without cyclists giving each other grief, pulling brakes, telling people to get off their tail etc.

The 'tail-end charlies' mightn't have a nice shiny road bike, or be as fit as you, or know all the etiquette, but don't complain too much about them, it's one less person trying to fly past you in a car, who'll be back in that car, and not feeling particularly good natured towards cyclists, if we make the experience of cycling exclusive enough and snobby enough for them...

(Again, I just want to make clear here, I'm talking about relating to city commuter types, who really need the encouragement, and probably aren't aware of specific cycling concepts such as pace lines etc)

cyclopath2001

fergalr wrote: »

Really, if the guy is annoying you, either let him stay ahead of you when he gets ahead, or drop him...

At my age, I treat it as a compliment if someone decides to slipstream me. It's very important to pretend you don't know they're there, they'll crack quicker that way.

I've sometimes had to follow riders (often tall lanky guys on well-maintained roadsters with kiddie seats and wearing hi-vis vests) who've forced their way through and barged ahead of me while I'm moving away at traffic lights.

Thing to do is to allow people through if they are determined to pass, then size them up and patiently wait for the wind or a hill to crack them.

If they run an amber or red light, let them go and give yourself some points for not cheating.

Tackleberry

fergalr wrote: »

So, the first time you passed this guy, it was a mile or two before you realized he was sitting on your wheel. Sounds like he wasn't that obtrusive, then?

You're sounding quite pedantic there Fergal, so I'll try speak in a language you'll understand: a mile is a little less than three minutes on a bike, so basically we passed him, he passed us at lights, we passed him again and three minutes or so later he was still on our wheel, if thats not "obtrusive" then I don't know what is - you're clearly a very mellow chap

fergalr wrote: »

But the red-light-leapfrogging thing aside, I really don't know what you are complaining about... It doesn't sound like the cyclist was particularly obtrusive to you, or causing much harm - it took you a while to notice he was there the first time, and you only had to pass him once?

As mentioned above - it took about 2 or 3 minutes to notice him which in my world doesn't really classify as a "while". Aside from this you might be happy having a fella sit on your wheel without saying hello but as far as I'm concerned its the least you can do in that situation, just simple manners, again, how mellow are you, I can imagine you puffing along on your penny farthing powered by your own sense of self-satisfaction, with gumdrops and lollypops for everyone...

fergalr wrote: »

People commute on bikes, and they should be able to do so without having to comply with a complex system of etiquette, of which they probably are completely unaware of.
If it was a cycle race or similar, where the other guy might reasonably be expected to know the finer points of cycling etiquette, maybe it'd be a cardinal sin then, but I think the general attitude in this thread is way too harsh.

Sweet Jeebus you think this is a complex system of etiquette?!?! Sorry to confuse you with all these riddles and formulae ... but at the very least everything in life and society is somewhat controlled by etiquette so I fear for your future. Face facts Fergal, like it or not there are certain do's and don'ts on the bike and every cyclist should make it his/her business to know them. By the way these tailgaters weren't simple commuters, they were recreational cyclists.

fergalr wrote: »

We should be encouraging people to cycle more in the city, and be happy that it's another cyclist on the roads. We should not be complaining about them not taking their turn in a way that really doesn't affect us - so what if they draft a bit?

Yet more of the hippy dippy rhetoric, how about next time it happens I drop back and give him a hug, and maybe I could push him along for a while then give him a lollypop and send him on his way. Fergal you're not really appreciating the context of this situation - we'd a fierce headwind for 5 miles so we were suffering, for somebody to sit on while that goes on is not on at all, as soon as you get into somebody's slipstream you're basically in their group, benefitting from their efforts - the very LEAST you can do is say hello, or take a turn, thats not "etiquette" its just good manners.

fergalr wrote: »

People annoyed at being drafted in traffic? Either drop back, or pull away, or put up with it - and maybe try and be a bit welcoming and supportive of other people out cycling

So you're saying we should engage in some kind of cat & mouse thing, stoppping n starting and gunning it etc etc ... when all you wanna do is tick over at a good pace that just highlights how annoying tail gaters are, and you clearly haven't understood what we've been saying because its the tailgater who's being unsocial and rude.

fergalr wrote: »

again, I just want to make clear here, I'm talking about relating to city commuter types)

If thats the case then your post is unnecessary - I'm not talking about commuters, I'm talking about keen cyclists, fitter than me.

God I hope I get to sit on your wheel some day, I could probably go for the whole spin without saying a word and you'd still love me for it!

fergalr

Looks like I'm a hippy-dippy pedant then - maybe an unusual combination, but fair enough!

God I hope I get to sit on your wheel some day, I could probably go for the whole spin without saying a word and you'd still love me for it!

Well, first off, you sound like you're fitter than I am... But that said, I mean, if I'm out on a spin, another cyclist coming and sitting behind me really wouldn't get me worked up. For all I know, we're already moving at the max pace they can sustain - and it's not like they are making me slower either way.
Without being super hippy here, I genuinely would prefer that scenario, where I do as much work as I would do even without them, to having them in a car; for loads of reasons, just one being that there's stats saying the more cyclists on the road, the less cycling fatalities etc.

Again, it was mainly the spirit of the thread I was commenting on - it just came across as a little bit mean-spirited, and I felt I should say something

Fergal you're not really appreciating the context of this situation - we'd a fierce headwind for 5 miles so we were suffering, for somebody to sit on while that goes on is not on at all, as soon as you get into somebody's slipstream you're basically in their group, benefitting from their efforts

Fwiw, seeing as I'm already down as pedantic, I honestly did read your original thread as best I could, and that wasn't the context you gave. The guy I was talking about, and the text I quoted, is the mountain biker you mentioned, which you did say was before you faced into the headwind:

just when it was starting to get annoying he turned left and off he went.
Less than a mile later as we'd just faced into a fairly harsh head wind

Sweet Jeebus you think this is a complex system of etiquette?!?! Sorry to confuse you with all these riddles and formulae ... but at the very least everything in life and society is somewhat controlled by etiquette so I fear for your future.

Well, I do actually think cycling etiquette is pretty complex stuff!
Not that I have a problem understanding the 'taking your turn' bit - but I guess I'm trying to make the point that not everyone has heard of this, or is aware of it.
I'd say the vast majority of city cyclists, like the mountain biker you mentioned, are really just going from A to B, and that the idea that they should take their turn doesn't even enter their heads.
I mean, if I was on my MTB, making my way around town, I'd probably feel a bit presumptuous pulling out to lead the way in front of 2 roadies - maybe that was the case? Shouldn't we give the benefit of the doubt?

That said, I wasn't there, you were - and I totally sympathise with the red-light thing... Call me naive though, I'd really say talk to the other cyclist, or engage with them somehow, before reaching the conclusion that they are just mean - I suspect a lot of them really wouldn't understand what you expect of them...

And don't do some of the things the other posters said - that's really what I didn't expect in the thread - it honestly is a hostile enough environment cycling in the city - one of the really nice things is how cyclists look after each other, so it's not good to see bad feelings between cyclists out there.

I remember once coming off a mountain bike near three rock (a driver did something dangerous, cutting in front of me, and I didn't react quite as I would now, and ended up on the ground, driver drove off) - and a lot of cars passed me on the side of the road before a really decent triathlete, out on his spin, stopped, talked to me, went home, got his car, and drove me home. So maybe trying to always assume the best of the other cyclists is a bit too mellow and hippy, but...

again, how mellow are you, I can imagine you puffing along on your penny farthing powered by your own sense of self-satisfaction, with gumdrops and lollypops for everyone...

If you'll buy me a penny farthing that's powered by my self satisfaction, I promise to dispense the gumdrops and lollypops.

I haven't cycled in the city much over the last little while, and I really have to say, you'd be surprised how much you mellow out without a daily dose of 'omg-why-is-everyone-is-trying-to-kill-me' time... Clearly some part of me misses that feeling though, as I find myself getting into online debates with posters with names like 'Tackleberry'

Raam

On a general note, it's probably best not to draft someone you don't know or let someone you don't know draft you. You have no idea how good their bike handling skills are or if they'll point out holes and hazards. Of course, in organised events you take your risks. In commuting or recreational rides, it's not worth it.

Edit: I'm only refering to people tailing uninvited, not to organised rides where people you haven't met before are riding with you. If you get my drift.

DirkVoodoo

Raam wrote: »

If you get my drift.

Oh no he didn'!!! I'll let that one pass

Raam

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Oh no he didn'!!! I'll let that one pass

I can assure you, that pun was not intended

Chips Lovell

Generally speaking, I find it kind of rude when someone sits on my wheel without so much as even saying hello. Most riders are fairly sociable, so it's always a bit odd when someone sits in without a word.

Having said that, I really don't get exercised about anyone getting a tow off me and not doing any work. After all, I wasn't expecting them there in the first place and I'm planning on doing the whole thing on my own. Their being on my wheel doesn't really make any difference, but at least they could say hello.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone is talking about commuters. If a commuter can keep up with you, then you aren't going fast enough to give anyone much of a draft.

Raam wrote: »

On a general note, it's probably best not to draft someone you don't know...

Agree. I'm always very wary about going too close to people I haven't ridden with before. You never know if they're going to be trigger happy with the brakes.

Tackleberry

Whats wrong with the name Tackleberry - he's a legend! Nobodies even sure if he's alive or dead!

Fergal I think you're just coming from a different angle and we'll have to agree to disagree, but a couple of things I'll clear up from your last post - the mountie wasn't commuting, he had all the gear and was out for a decent spin, he was just the first tailgater, the 2nd was for far longer and was the main protagonist, I wasn't that bothered about the mountie and I think thats clear in my 1st post - it was in the context of the tough conditions with the 2nd 'gater that annoyed me enough to start the thread.

There's not much cycling etiquette at all as far as I can tell, and thats the crux of this whole debate - the only really tangible one I can think of is that you take your turn! What else is there ... eh, don't crash into other cyclists ... call the potholes (only applicable in groups so 'gaters don't need to worry about this do they?) ... shave your legs ... wear a helmet ... I got nothing.

So basically they're breaking the only bit of etiquette there is!

Ghost Rider

Couldn't this whole issue be resolved by the cyclist in front simply turning around and saying something to the person behind?

E.g. "Is it my turn to draft yet?" or "You know you should really go ahead for a while?" or even "Dude, where's my draft?"

fergalr

Whats wrong with the name Tackleberry - he's a legend! Nobodies even sure if he's alive or dead!

Ah, it's a great name - just calls up images of a fairly trigger happy guy to me - not someone I'd really want to mess with

Fergal I think you're just coming from a different angle and we'll have to agree to disagree, but a couple of things I'll clear up from your last post - the mountie wasn't commuting, he had all the gear and was out for a decent spin, he was just the first tailgater, the 2nd was for far longer and was the main protagonist, I wasn't that bothered about the mountie and I think thats clear in my 1st post - it was in the context of the tough conditions with the 2nd 'gater that annoyed me enough to start the thread.

Yeah, different perspectives it is - I didn't get the impression it was a serious cyclist from your initial post, especially the way you were saying he passed you drifting through the lights, most people I'd know of out on a spin wouldn't do that quite like a random commuter cyclist would.

I think the best approach to this situation is to say a few words to them - I'd be seriously surprised if a serious mtb'r or roadie would refuse to take a turn, if you invited them to - if that was the case, and you weren't faster than them etc then, yeah, they're being selfish - that would run pretty contrary to my experience of serious cyclists though - I know I'd feel more flattered than inconvenienced to be invited to pace line if I met some roadies on my mtb.

There's not much cycling etiquette at all as far as I can tell, and thats the crux of this whole debate - the only really tangible one I can think of is that you take your turn! What else is there ... eh, don't crash into other cyclists ... call the potholes (only applicable in groups so 'gaters don't need to worry about this do they?) ... shave your legs ... wear a helmet ... I got nothing.

I'd heard some pretty weird and arcane pieces of cycling etiquette at times -
one example might be not to mention the h word like you did there :P
but that's a subject for another thread

Now, I should go get out on my bike...

amjon

Tackleberry wrote: »

So me and my mate were out for a spin on Sat avo, we passed a fella on a mountain bike at a set of traffic lights and carried on without a thought, about a mile or two later we realised he was sitting on our wheel and at a set of red lights he drifted past us and took off, we caught him pretty quick and passed him again and sure enough after another few miles we could hear him back on our wheels, just when it was starting to get annoying he turned left and off he went.

Less than a mile later as we'd just faced into a fairly harsh head wind we heard the clickety click of gears right on our wheel yet again, this time a fella on a road bike, so as me and my mate took turns burying ourselves into the headwind, he just coasted along around a metre from our back wheels for about 5 miles, never passing us, never falling too far behind, no doubt just enjoying the free ride.

The point to my rambling is that I want to suss out what you guys think about these "tail-end Charlie's" as I call them, I'm all for chatting and cycling with new people but I think its very cheeky to sit on someones wheel without saying hi and taking a turn or something, and it happens a fair bit, to me anyway, would it be cheeky to turn around and tell him to either take a turn or feck off? Its especially frustrating when you're dying coz of the headwind and he's just tapping away, and I do think its happening more and more so I'll have to decide on an action plan soon!!

To be honest if your going so slow that a mountain bike is going at comparable speed/able to draft then you deserve everything coming to you.To answer your question tho I wouldn't give a toss.

bealbocht

amjon wrote: »

To be honest if your going so slow that a mountain bike is going at comparable speed/able to draft then you deserve everything coming to you.To answer your question tho I wouldn't give a toss.

eh.. yeah.. if you had a mountie leading out two roadies.. , well.. sure you be itching to take the lead again.. oh the shame..

Have only draughed a few times.. mostly around the city center.. there are not really any places its worth trying.. , but a girl with a nice arse, is always worth a closer looked.. and I find it quite motivational... , but girls with nice bottoms are rare and tend more often than not to be very fit and in much more of a hurry than I am.
And well , being that close is a bit rude.

Sometimes do it a bit on the hill on the last stretch up to my house.. but much more often its people doing it to me.. (but neither happens very often, and after the hill (i'm home) and people split up anyway.

Did it one other time, on my mountie just after a spin to lucan (and back), along the canal, which is mostly grass.. and when I was back on the road (still along the canal) a road bike whizzzs pass and I just had to keep up with him, but there was no way I could have passed him.
It was only for about 1/2 mile max..

Generally, if you are that close, you know what (and why) you are doing, and a bit of respect would not go astray.

Tackleberry

amjon wrote: »

To be honest if your going so slow that a mountain bike is going at comparable speed/able to draft then you deserve everything coming to you.To answer your question tho I wouldn't give a toss.

Cheers Amjon for your useless imput

Raam

Tackleberry wrote: »

Cheers Amjon for your useless imput

Just face it Tackleberry, you're slow

PeadarofAodh

If someone drafting you without saying anything winds you up that much, just throw them the Lance "Look" and leave them.

Quit yo jibba jabba!

Tackleberry

Raam wrote: »

Just face it Tackleberry, you're slow

Well if thats the case surely drafting me makes you even more of a spastic

Raam

Tackleberry wrote: »

Well if thats the case surely drafting me makes you even more of a spastic

He was on an MTB, it's too late for him.

souter

As a commuting fred I have only one speed - flat out and not very fast. A couple time I've come across someone with very similar speed and have ended up inadvertently slip streaming them.
It get's awkward - I don't have any spare capacity to take the lead without them overtaking me straight away (which they do, because it's a commute aka race), conversely why should I have to slow down just to get out of their slipstream?

Tackleberry

souter wrote: »

As a commuting fred I have only one speed - flat out and not very fast. A couple time I've come across someone with very similar speed and have ended up inadvertently slip streaming them.
It get's awkward - I don't have any spare capacity to take the lead without them overtaking me straight away (which they do, because it's a commute aka race), conversely why should I have to slow down just to get out of their slipstream?

Just more proof that tailgating is a pain in the hole

dmigsy

Funny thread. The only problem I have with someone tailgating me is the potential for a pile up if I need to stop suddenly (which can be often in Dublin's fair city).

Apart from this, it's a little like complaining that a homeless guy is eating scraps from your bin. Are you claiming ownership of your slipstream? Maybe rent it out for a couple of euros per km?

The easiest solution, Tackleberry, might be for you to switch to a diet consisting entirely of curried beans and eggs.

'68 Fastback

I know this is off the topic but it boils my $h1te.

I wave or say Hi to every cyclist coming the oposite direction when i'm out in the hills and while most return a salute or just a nod theres the odd, generally fully kitted out "professional", goon who won't even make eye contact.

Are they really that cool? Am I wrong to say Hi to a fellow cyclist? Is it cos I is black?

Tackleberry

dmigsy wrote: »

it's a little like complaining that a homeless guy is eating scraps from your bin

Nah, I'd say its more like the homeless guy breaking into your house, watching you toil over a hot stove for ages all the while nicking the best grub whenever your back is turned

dmigsy wrote: »

Are you claiming ownership of your slipstream? Maybe rent it out for a couple of euros per km?

Yes, yes I am. I worked hard to create it and I'll be damned if somebody's gonna come along and benefit from it without thanking me for it! I'd bloody love to rent it out, I'll suggest it to the next 'gater and let you know how I get on...

dmigsy wrote: »

The easiest solution, Tackleberry, might be for you to switch to a diet consisting entirely of curried beans and eggs.

Done deal

Tackleberry

'68 wrote:

I know this is off the topic but it boils my $h1te.

I wave or say Hi to every cyclist coming the oposite direction when i'm out in the hills and while most return a salute or just a nod theres the odd, generally fully kitted out "professional", goon who won't even make eye contact.

Are they really that cool? Am I wrong to say Hi to a fellow cyclist? Is it cos I is black?

Haha I was gonna put this in my opening post too but thought it would be too much moaning!

But I totally agree, we should all acknowledge other, and its got to a ridiculous stage where you're playing cat & mouse as he comes towards you looking for even the slightest indication they might nod, or wave, or smile, then feeling like a tool for waving and getting no love back, or for a total prick for not waving back in time....hirrarious!

amjon

Tackleberry wrote: »

Cheers Amjon for your useless imput

That wasn't useless,it was an opinion that conflicts with yours.

Tackleberry

amjon wrote: »

That wasn't useless,it was an opinion that conflicts with yours.

And my opinion of any opinion conflicting with my opinion is that it is useless!

'68 Fastback

Yeah, I'm not generally any use to anyone looking for a drift but the ignoring thing is just rude. Even auld lads who can hardly breath on an uphill will feckin smile at you in reccognition but not the wannabe, oh no.
Maybe all the EPO makes them abit aloof!

ROK ON

'68 wrote:

I wave or say Hi to every cyclist coming the oposite direction when i'm out in the hills and while most return a salute or just a nod theres the odd, generally fully kitted out "professional", goon who won't even make eye contact.

I would regularly say hi to other cyclists when out for the spins. I do it because it is nice (and I assumed that it was part of the secret cyclist code). Never have I been blanked by a fellow cyclist. But then again, maybe (1) I am cooler than you, (2) you hit upon a guy who is 'in the zone' or (30 maybe he didn't see you, or (4) maybe he didn't care.

I just assumed that cyclists all acknowledge other cyclists while out on spins. Sort of like car drivers in rural Ireland nodding at passing cars, pedestrians, road workers etc.