Obama will loose

snow scorpion

Ludo wrote: »

Well besides having better policies, ...

Umm, are you sure about that? You might want to pay particular attention to #9 and #10

Ludo wrote: »

Obama is a leader.

He could barely get half of registered Democrats to follow his lead.

Ludo wrote: »

He is highly intelligent

The list above suggests otherwise. So does this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap2Cg_FDRy4

Ludo wrote: »

He inspires.

Well, we won't know for sure how much he inspires until election day and we see how many voters turn out for him.

I will, however, concede he reads a teleprompter better than any anchorman/presenter on television today.

GuanYin

Overheal wrote: »

No, its supposed to get you to be silent about a really lame argument regarding russia. pick something with more substance to it - like the gods war thing.

I think the Russia example is a very good example of how some people are using misinformation and the fog of war to try and either divert attention or hide the fact that Palin is wholly unqualified.

You know, like you did.

Lirange

Overheal wrote: »

No, its supposed to get you to be silent about a really lame argument regarding russia. pick something with more substance to it - like the gods war thing.

I never made such an argument. Try again.

Lirange

ludo wrote:

Well besides having better policies, ...

snow scorpion wrote: »

Umm, are you sure about that? You might want to pay particular attention to #9 and #10

For a more balanced view on the policy front and that's using your conservative source.


Re: #9 on your list: Taxing Oil companies ...

Look at the record of your preferred candidate

A real Adam Smith supply sider you have there!

snow scorpion wrote: »

He could barely get half of registered Democrats to follow his lead.

He beat the "inevitable candidate" with superior name recognition and an entrenched party apparatus at their disposal. Few gave him any chance before the primaries. The fact that he was able to organise and pull it off is a testament to his leadership.

snow scorpion wrote: »

The list above suggests otherwise. So does this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap2Cg_FDRy4

The complimentary list of McCain's worst ideas from the same source you conveniently omitted suggests you're tilting the table. Now you're posting a hatchet piece from youtube ... an accumulation of gaffes Like this?.

So should we post point/counterpoint with YouTube partisan hit pieces since we're getting lazy?

Obama was admitted to Harvard, not through pedigree but through his scholarship. He became President of the Harvard Law Review. McCain graduated 894 off 899 cadets in his class. But apart from that it really is a matter of personal opinion which not surprisingly seems to be coloured by one's political views. There were many loyal conservatives that defended Bush Jr. on his mental acuity (or lack thereof) through the years. Generally, to me Obama comes across as someone that has a much greater grasp of the issues. When I watched Obama in that hostile interview with Billo he demonstrated a much greater proficiency at tackling the details. It contrasts with McCain whose depth of understanding on most issues seems incredibly shallow at times.

Ludo

snow scorpion wrote: »

Umm, are you sure about that? You might want to pay particular attention to #9 and #10

Completely biased list...I notice it says encouraging americans to use more oil is a bad thing, yet it ignores McCains oil tax holiday idea. Is there a list of McCains ten worst ideas on that site also?

snow scorpion wrote: »

He could barely get half of registered Democrats to follow his lead.

Ah come on now...two VERY strong candidates. If McCain had an opponent of the calibre of Clinton to contend with he would have had the same issue. He got lucky that the rest of the republicans imploded. I was surprised how Romney faded I must say though...not quite sure how that happened.

snow scorpion wrote: »

The list above suggests otherwise. So does this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap2Cg_FDRy4

As for the youtube clip...have you seen the clip of McCain being asked about viagra and birth control or how many houses he has. He looks like a moron even though he is not.

Again with that list...every candidate has good and bad ideas. I find it hard to understand how some people (not just americans) agree 100% with their party no matter what. In reality I actually agree more broadly with the Republican party on most issues (bar gun control and a couple of others) but also agree with the Dems on a lot of ideas, therefore I am deciding on what are the important ones to me and on the merits of each candidate.
McCain has completely reversed himself on so many policies in the last year that I just don't find him credible anymore despite liking him so much at the start of all of this. He even says he would vote against things he proposed himself now (immigration reform for example) just to get the votes of the "base". Where are his principles and maverick attitude?
And his blatant grab for female votes by picking someone who makes Dan Quayle look like a highly intelligent person is stunning. God I know more about foreign affairs and economics than that woman. Pandering of the worst kind. I find the lack of judgement displayed to be stunning. Does he seriously believe she is ready to be president if something happens to him?

Overheal

Lirange wrote: »

I never made such an argument. Try again.

i wasnt sniping anyone with that comment at all.

Guan Yin wrote:

I think the Russia example is a very good example of how some people are using misinformation and the fog of war to try and either divert attention or hide the fact that Palin is wholly unqualified.

You know, like you did.

you mean like the left that played up the russia thing in the first place? theyre the only ones helping to hide her disqualifications with that stunt.

Lirange

Overheal wrote: »

i wasnt sniping anyone with that comment at all.

Your comment was clearly directed at me even though it had no relevance to me. I did not accuse you of sniping. You are however guilty of not paying attention.

GuanYin

Overheal wrote: »

you mean like the left that played up the russia thing in the first place? theyre the only ones helping to hide her disqualifications with that stunt.

No, the Russia thing came up in a Fox News dicussion where they commented on her lack of foreign experience. In two separate interviews with two separate analysts, proximity to Russia was used as an example of her foreign policy credentials. Noone, not even the left, suggested that she believed that, nor that she was saying that, they merely pointed out that the right-wing media were being ridiculous.

Now if you're going to try and spin this, I'll start asking for sources and we don't want to go down that road. Just admit you were either being deceitful or were misinformed.

Pocono Joe

Why don't you give the Barak Obama test on the issues a try... it might surprise you.
http://www.barackobamatest.com/

is_that_so

And along comes Joe Biden in Des Moines to help Obama out. @5.42 "It's about time they were as patriotic as everyone else", referring to those earning above $250K.

Really not the brightest thing to say and naturally enough it gave McCain the chance to call it "dumb".

Sand

I amnt sure what Biden said wrong in saying the rich should pay more taxes/have less tax breaks. Whats dumb about that? Its a bit nuts that the rich, through their access to tax lawyers, can end up paying little or no tax relative to people on average incomes.

Though the Republicans ought to embarrass the Dems and their backers - set up a fund. Call it the 250K+ Patriotic Income Club. Allow donations from Sean Penn & Co that will be provided to the US government for schools or hospitals or whatever. Biden says rich people want to pay more tax, only they havent been asked - why do they need to wait? Why not just hand it over and save the taxpayer the cost of collecting it?

The only dumb thing I heard was him saying he would guarantee they would end the war in Iraq. As if he can control events in that country magically and make everything okay, when the track record of opposing the surge - which worked - shows they dont know a successful strategy for stabilising Iraq when its literally handed to them by their generals in the field.

Unless of course he meant he would guarantee they would lose the war in Iraq. Thats something that they can achieve without trouble.

brianthebard

I'm sure if he felt it was a strong enough vote winner he would guarantee a "tactical withdrawal" post haste, stabilisation be damned. In any case the idea that they can stabilise a country with so many factured cultural and political groups is laughable, they really would be there centuries, trying to hold together a nation that was only formed for teh craic after the Versailles treaty.

Hobbes

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Why don't you give the Barak Obama test on the issues a try... it might surprise you.
http://www.barackobamatest.com/

Its another BS poll. here is why.

"Some say Barack Obama’s plans to implement sweeping environmental regulations will raise the cost of gas, groceries, heating and air conditioning. Do you favor or oppose Obama’s environmental plans?"

It is the same as that anti-jewish poll that was done recently on Obama.

Ludo

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Why don't you give the Barak Obama test on the issues a try... it might surprise you.
http://www.barackobamatest.com/

Totally biased site. Even looking at the front page tells you that..."The Audacity of Deceit"!
The questions are all phrased in a way to be negative about Obama.
At least make an effort to point to independent sites to make an argument.

Pocono Joe

I'm sure one run on the Daily Kos would pass an exalted scrutiny of integrity with flying colors... but besides that, how did you do on the poll? :pac:

Hobbes

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I'm sure one run on the Daily Kos would pass an exalted scrutiny of integrity with flying colors... but besides that, how did you do on the poll? :pac:

Poll doesn't work, says question 1 invalid. But as I said the questions are BS.

Let me give you an example of how BS they are.

"Some say McCain believes that kindergartners should not be protected against pedophiles. Do you favor or oppose McCains plan on education for children?"

What would you vote? yes or no?

Ludo

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I'm sure one run on the Daily Kos would pass an exalted scrutiny of integrity with flying colors... but besides that, how did you do on the poll? :pac:

Wouldn't trust one on the daily kos either...I did say an INDEPENTENT/non-partisan site.

kenco

Obama may well win but only just. I reckon when the voters enter the booths the reality of a Black Pres will hit in Florida, Ohio and Virginia and this could get McCain to 260. If any other marginal states go his way (hard to see at the moment) then he might sneak it.

No where near the walk in the park predicted for Obama. If he wins it will be only just....

turgon

Hobbes wrote: »

You did actually read his policies? I am guessing you didn't. Here let me help you.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

I mean it is 33 pages long and reasonably well detailed.

I think its because Obama has such an positive well managed campaign that portrays him as a genuine hopeful candidate for change, people tend to assume that he actually has no beliefs/policies.

Ive heard a few people complain about Obama having no policies and him being a candidate of sound bites, yet they havent even tried to find out anything.

is_that_so

Obama like McCain is about perception, unfortunately where this campaign seems to be heading. He may have well-crafted policies but policies unimplemented become broken promises. All parties are great on policy documents. The question ultimately is whether people trust him or McCain enough to vote for them. The polls to date suggest that they haven't made up their minds either way.

is_that_so

I came across this piece by a Democrat and posting it because I think it explains far better where Obama's problems could lie.

Overheal

GuanYin wrote: »

No, the Russia thing came up in a Fox News dicussion where they commented on her lack of foreign experience. In two separate interviews with two separate analysts, proximity to Russia was used as an example of her foreign policy credentials. Noone, not even the left, suggested that she believed that, nor that she was saying that, they merely pointed out that the right-wing media were being ridiculous.

Now if you're going to try and spin this, I'll start asking for sources and we don't want to go down that road. Just admit you were either being deceitful or were misinformed.

Misinformed. Im far too nice a guy to be deceitful. And for the record im Independent.

turgon

is_that_so wrote: »

Obama like McCain is about perception, unfortunately where this campaign seems to be heading. He may have well-crafted policies but policies unimplemented become broken promises. All parties are great on policy documents. The question ultimately is whether people trust him or McCain enough to vote for them.

Ok lets be utterly realistic. How can you really trust anyone fully that you have never had a full engagement with? Theres a certain level of risk to every decision. I dont think whether or not the policies will be implemented is an issue at all, as no one can say that his side will and the others wont. No one knows.

is_that_so

turgon wrote: »

Ok lets be utterly realistic. How can you really trust anyone fully that you have never had a full engagement with? Theres a certain level of risk to every decision. I dont think whether or not the policies will be implemented is an issue at all, as no one can say that his side will and the others wont. No one knows.

We've been voting on governments who renege on policies for years but we let them at it, because we understand that that's how things work. He claims to be an "agent for change". Seeing as Obama has been pushing the fact that he has policies and oodles of them, analysis of whether he can get them implemented, especially the poisioned chalice of healthcare is important. Some people believe he is going to fix America and the world.

Disappointment with McCain if he wins will just be the normal state of affairs, however disappointment with Obama will mark him as just another politician, and risk disengaging those people who've woken up to politics. That to me would be the greater shame.

As a personality, beyond his speeches he really is not very engaging and McCain would win hands down. As one CNN commentator suggested if it's all about the issues ( and IMO a clear understandable message) then Obama should win, if it's personalities then it's more likely to be McCain.