Porsche now control VW-AG

Zonda999

Porsche now own a 35% share of VW, more than any other shareholder.I, personally find this very disappointing as i can see porsche eliminating any competition to its models.Its Audi and Lamborghini i'm most worried about.I dont think porsche are too fond of models like the R8. Thats in direct competition with the 911 and is way better IMO.Other models in direct competition are the TT(Especially the TTS AND TTRS), RS4(Arguably in competition with the cayman), S8 and pretty much all high end audis.Anyone have any thoughts on this??

Bandara

Zonda999 wrote: »

Porsche now own a 35% share of VW, more than any other shareholder.I, personally find this very disappointing as i can see porsche eliminating any competition to its models.Its Audi and Lamborghini i'm most worried about.I dont think porsche are too fond of models like the R8. Thats in direct competition with the 911 and is way better IMO.Other models in direct competition are the TT(Especially the TTS AND TTRS), RS4(Arguably in competition with the cayman), S8 and pretty much all high end audis.Anyone have any thoughts on this??

why would Porsche want to eliminate the competiton of a company they own a large part off and take a large proportion of the profits off?

do you not think they will now perfect the Audi/Lambo ranges even more and concentrate on eliminating their direct competitors, which will result in an upping of the stakes and better cars for us all.

Matt Simis

Hammertime wrote: »

why would Porsche want to eliminate the competiton of a company they own a large part off and take a large proportion of the profits off?

do you not think they will now perfect the Audi/Lambo ranges even more and concentrate on eliminating their direct competitors, which will result in an upping of the stakes and better cars for us all.

I have my optimistic hat on too. Porche arent just "some" company, they have a successful working relationship and personal family connection to VAG. If they were concerned about the RS range surely they wouldnt have developed the original RS car with Audi to begin with (the RS2)?

And if they do start to act in poor business taste, the EUs strict anti-competition laws will click into place. This isnt the US!

Zonda999

Yes but they only own a controlling stake(~35%) so for every car VW-AG sell, they'll only get 35% of profit as opposed to the whole lot if they sell an actual porsche.I'm only worried really about the high end models really.I'm interested on knowing, though why porsche were so willing to take on absolutely huge debt in order to get this much of VW-AG???

Edit: I wonder what this could be???

maidhc

Zonda999 wrote: »

I'm interested on knowing, though why porsche were so willing to take on absolutely huge debt in order to get this much of VW-AG???

Because they are a tiny company as regards units sold and economies of scale, VAG on the other hand are massive. Porsche probably need to do this to survive in the long term and to be able to afford to develop new technology.

I wouldn't worry about competition to porsche to be honest. BMW, Mercedes and Fiat are not going anywhere for the moment.

Matt Simis

Zonda999 wrote: »

I'm only worried really about the high end models really.I'm interested on knowing, though why porsche were so willing to take on absolutely huge debt in order to get this much of VW-AG???

could be???

Official line was to protect their materials supplier wasnt it? Something like 40% of Porche parts are sourced from VAG parts. Then of course their is the Cayenne/Touareg shared platform. The connection between the two runs deep.

TomMc

Porsche are the most profitable motor manufacturer in the world. Some can see far more potential for VAG (in global terms), than is the case at present. Add economies of scale and it makes sense.

Add a bit of family history into the mix, a personal crusade of sorts for Herr Piech and some power politics within Porsche itself and things are spicing up nicely. Better than an Old Firm Derby.

galwaytt

maidhc wrote: »

Because they are a tiny company as regards units sold and economies of scale, VAG on the other hand are massive. Porsche probably need to do this to survive in the long term and to be able to afford to develop new technology.

...mmmm, tiny company..........not anymore, with 200k + Boxsters sold alone, it's hardly bespoke manufacturing. More importantly though, it's actually the most profitable company in the world. IIRC, they make about EUr 7k profit per car, in manufacturing. VW make, again, iirc, on average Eur 270 per car. You only need one tiny recall on a Golf/etc, to completely put you in the red, financially. Audi and the Mk1 TT is a good example. I'd be shocked if, after all their recalls, they ever made any money on them. Porsche's philosophy is fundamentally different.

On the other side, Porsche did need, and have access to VAG technology, witness the new Diesel Cayenne and Panamara out in 09. The Cayenne D is out, afaik, in Jan 09.

Besides, you have to admire the fact they wouldn't let an overseas outfit buy VW. The germans are - rightly - unashamedly proud of their car industry, and make no apologies in protecting it. I'm all for it.

Contrast that with our govt and, say, agriculture or fisheries.......

DubDani

The thing is that even though Porsche now "owns" Volkswagen, it is not able to make any real decissions on it's own, as the Regional Government of Lower Saxony holds a 20.3% blocking minority in Volkswagen, which means Porsche can't take any big decissions without their agreement, even if they have all other shareholders in their boat.

They need 80% of the Votes to make big decissions (like exchanging the VW Boss), which can't be gotten without the Regional Governments support.

TomMc

Yeh, look whats left of the British Motor Industry apart from the more specialist cottage industry manufacturers.

Porsche use to always put engineering first, but in more recent times volume aka profit is their prime mantra. They really want to crack mainstream America with VAG, in much the same way they did with the Cayenne.

Biro

The only bad thing from this is that the "GT TDI" drivers will be claiming that their car is basically a Porsche... They already claim that they're as quick as one!

maidhc

galwaytt wrote: »

...mmmm, tiny company..........not anymore, with 200k + Boxsters sold alone, it's hardly bespoke manufacturing. More importantly though, it's actually the most profitable company in the world. IIRC, they make about EUr 7k profit per car, in manufacturing.

And VW have sold 3.31 million units in the first half of 2008!!!!

Porsche are a tiny bespoke manufactuer, albeit a very profitable one at the moment.

I don't buy the "trying to eliminate competition" argument for one second. As I said above, there are plenty of companies making competing cars. Even if Porsche was the only european sportscar manufacturer left, it would be easy for the Japanese or Americans to build a competing car.

I think this is a good thing for VW as well, indeed the best thing for VW would be if the unions and goverment could be completely removed from the board and Porsche get total control... then hard decisions could be made and maybe quality might be then back to Golf Mk1 golf levels.

Max_Damage

Sure British Leyland had a load of vehicles competing with one another. Then again, look what happened to it....

maidhc

Max_Damage wrote: »

Sure British Leyland had a load of vehicles competing with one another. Then again, look what happened to it....

Porsche and VAG dont really compete. Sure some of them may cost the same, but the Audi RS whatever is a 4 door saloon, while the 911 is a rear engined sportscar.

No one will really bemoan the passing of the Audi TT if that ever happens, and it probably wont because that and a Boxter/Cayman are very different cars.

The reason BL failed was ultimately the lack of quality of their vehicles and the lack of investment in new models.

Eoin

If Audi/Skoda/VW can all compete in much more similar segments, then why is this situation any different?

galwaytt

maidhc wrote: »

...No one will really bemoan the passing of the Audi TT if that ever happens..

Oi ! check my username !

VH

galwaytt wrote: »

Besides, you have to admire the fact they wouldn't let an overseas outfit buy VW. The germans are - rightly - unashamedly proud of their car industry, and make no apologies in protecting it. I'm all for it.

interesting - it was rumoured at the time that it was toyota that was going to buy out VW as they have enough actual cash in the bank to buy any other car maker on the planet - VW falling into japanese hands wouldnt go down well with the germans I'd say

Zonda999

VH wrote: »

interesting - it was rumoured at the time that it was toyota that was going to buy out VW as they have enough actual cash in the bank to buy any other car maker on the planet - VW falling into japanese hands wouldnt go down well with the germans I'd say

Fair point.I dont think it would go down well with europeans and car-lovers the world over, at that!!

unkel

Hold on a minute!

The article on Autocar states that:

Autocar wrote:

Porsche has finally secured control of Volkswagen by pushing its share ownership above 35 per cent. This buys sufficient votes on the board to dictate the major management decisions at the Skoda-to-Bugatti group.

This is incorrect. Porsche do not have control over VAG. By owning more than 35% they legally have to make an offer on the entire group, but the offer can be rejected

Porsche is still a long way away from having control of VAG

peasant

What's also interesting is that VW chief Ferdinand Piech is also a part owner of Porsche and the cousin of the current Porsche director (not GM) Wolfgang Porsche ...and apparently the family is at each other's throats over this.

TomMc

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/business/worldbusiness/17porsche.html

unkel

TomMc wrote: »

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/business/worldbusiness/17porsche.html

That article is misleading too. 35% does not mean control!

unkel

peasant wrote: »

apparently the family is at each other's throats over this.

Making a better car than Porsche ever had must have been satisfying, but I'll say Piech will stop at nothing until he runs the entire Porsche-VAG group

samih

Knowing that there will be EU CO2 emission rules of average of 120 g/km *per manufacturer* in 2012 (although probably delayed) I see a pattern emerging here...

Yes, I see big engined VWs dying in the medium term.