Appealing Irish Rail fine

Turnip2000

I was fined €50 the other day in Connolly when i approached that man in the box before the ticket checking machines. I was a bit pished off cause I thought that was just the done thing if you were about to miss your train, pay at the other end. I've seen it done a few times.

Just wondering has anybody ever appealed and been let off or anything along the lines of this?

Trampas

you thought wrong.

pay the fine and move on.

spiderman1885

Sound reply,

An awful lot of people get away with paying at the other end.

By the sounds of it the OP actually approached the ticket guy, meaning he wasnt trying to defraud anyone.

AugustusMaximus

That is incredibly harsh if the OP actually went to pay on his own merit after the journey.

In this case, the OP was essentially fined for his own honesty when a person who would have avoided paying would get off scott free.

spiderman1885

Trampas wrote: »

you thought wrong.

pay the fine and move on.

Exactly why I thought this reply was harsh too...

Stark

I doubt honesty had anything to do with it. He would have had to gotten a ticket from somewhere in order to pass through the ticket machines. The people who get away with paying at the destination would most likely be people who got on at stations where the ticket booth was closed. I've had to do this a few times when travelling from Castleknock to Drumcondra.

spiderman1885

Well which station were you coming from Turnip?

Turnip2000

spiderman1885 wrote: »

Well which station were you coming from Turnip?

Portmarnock which doesnt have them ticket checking machines. As i said everybody left the line and jumped on the train obviously without tickets. Im sure they all got away with it.

Stark

I'd imagine most people commuting daily from Portmarnock would have annual passes. Just because you saw someone getting on the train without buying a ticket doesn't mean it's safe for you to do the same.

Turnip2000

Stark wrote: »

I'd imagine most people commuting daily from Portmarnock would have annual passes. Just because you saw someone getting on the train without buying a ticket doesn't mean it's safe for you to do the same.

But they were cueing for a ticket and then left the line when the train pulled in? So i doubt they had an anual ticket?

Ckal

That's a bit unfair. You should definitely complain, if you can. People got on at Portarlington on the Galway-Dublin train and they didn't have tickets and they paid at the other end, so you should have been able to as well.

Victor

If you can buy a ticket before boarding, you must.

An appeal will fail in this case.

spiderman1885

Well I for one hope Turnip gets off, I've been at stations where the office has been closed, and have only had €50 note so obviously I'm not going to put that into the machine...! Show up at my destination and pay there.

ALSO I remember as a child travelling from Howth, where there was no ticket chap working, and we arrived at connolly and paid there..

Ham'nd'egger

Turnip, if you are going to appeal your non payment of the fine you will need to have a pretty strong case on your side citing due reason/s for your non payment of any ticket required for traveling.

If the ticket office was open or if a ticket machine was available at the station then you will almost certainly fail in any appeal as you have had ample facility to purchase a ticket prior to your journey; likewise if you hold a ticket it is up to you to have it when traveling en route. Seeing others walk onto a train the day won't wash with the fare enforcement office and it will certainly not wash with a judge if it came to a court hearing. There was a time when you could pay at a destination station but this is not the case anymore; there is many a poster and billboard at stations and on trains that do remind you to hold a valid ticket.

SeanW

And in many cases these posters are right beside a locked ticket office door.

Ham'nd'egger

SeanW wrote: »

And in many cases these posters are right beside a locked ticket office door.

Your point being?

peachystarr

The trick is to write a letter of apology not of complaint. Express that you have learned from your mistakes (even if you havent), you know now that you must have a valid ticket e.t.c Be extremely apologetic and nice. You will get your money back. People love to get nice letters and that will stand out over the hundreds of angry letters of complaint they get.

Ham'nd'egger

peachystarr wrote: »

The trick is to write a letter of apology not of complaint. Express that you have learned from your mistakes (even if you havent), you know now that you must have a valid ticket e.t.c Be extremely apologetic and nice. You will get your money back. People love to get nice letters and that will stand out over the hundreds of angry letters of complaint they get.

I love your style!:D

Seth Brundle

peachystarr wrote: »

People love to get nice letters and that will stand out over the hundreds of angry letters of complaint they get.

Surely IR don't get hundreds of letters of complaint?

MOH

Hamndegger wrote: »

Turnip, if you are going to appeal your non payment of the fine you will need to have a pretty strong case on your side citing due reason/s for your non payment of any ticket required for traveling.

If the ticket office was open or if a ticket machine was available at the station then you will almost certainly fail in any appeal as you have had ample facility to purchase a ticket prior to your journey; likewise if you hold a ticket it is up to you to have it when traveling en route. Seeing others walk onto a train the day won't wash with the fare enforcement office and it will certainly not wash with a judge if it came to a court hearing. There was a time when you could pay at a destination station but this is not the case anymore; there is many a poster and billboard at stations and on trains that do remind you to hold a valid ticket.

There's no obligation to buy a ticket from a TVM if the ticket office is closed - in fact, many ticket options are not available from TVMs.

Ham'nd'egger

MOH wrote: »

There's no obligation to buy a ticket from a TVM if the ticket office is closed - in fact, many ticket options are not available from TVMs.

The obligation is on the passenger to carry a valid ticket when traveling. If there is a facility at a station to purchase a ticket then you need to have purchased same prior to boarding the service; this includes a Ticket Vending Machine (TVM) located at a station. If a TVM doesn't sell a ticket option that you need, it is you as a passenger who needs to purchase the correct ticket ahead of your journey.

MOH

Hamndegger wrote: »

The obligation is on the passenger to carry a valid ticket when traveling. If there is a facility at a station to purchase a ticket then you need to have purchased same prior to boarding the service; this includes a Ticket Vending Machine (TVM) located at a station. If a TVM doesn't sell a ticket option that you need, it is you as a passenger who needs to purchase the correct ticket ahead of your journey.

There is no obligation to carry a ticket if the facility to purchase the correct ticket is not available before boarding the train. In that respect, the constant "No ticket, no excuse" line from Irish Rail is incorrect.

In that case, your obligation is to purchase the ticket at the earliest opportunity.

I've also failed to find any mention whatsoever of TVMs in the relevant bye-laws.

[edit]

SI 109/1984 wrote:

3. Except as provided in Bye-Law No. 4, no person other than an authorised person shall—

(1) enter any lift or pass any ticket barrier unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling the holder to enter such lift or pass such barrier; and such ticket or other authority shall be produced on demand to any authorised person; or

(2) enter any vehicle for the purpose of travelling unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling him or her to travel therein.


4. Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

It clearly states that if the station is unattended or the booking office is closed, you may proceed without a ticket.

Mr. Presentable

MOH wrote: »

There is no obligation to carry a ticket if the facility to purchase the correct ticket is not available before boarding the train. In that respect, the constant "No ticket, no excuse" line from Irish Rail is incorrect.

In that case, your obligation is to purchase the ticket at the earliest opportunity.

I've also failed to find any mention whatsoever of TVMs in the relevant bye-laws.

The point you make is moot - there was a ticket office open, the OP simply wasn't there in time to get a ticket for his intended train.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the OP in this situation, but doubt he has a leg to stand on in an appeal.

MOH

nipplenuts wrote: »

The point you make is moot - there was a ticket office open, the OP simply wasn't there in time to get a ticket for his intended train.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the OP in this situation, but doubt he has a leg to stand on in an appeal.

I appreciate that the OP unfortunately has no leg to stand on in this case: I was contradicting Ham'nd'egger's statement that had the office been closed, the presence of a ticket machine would still mean he had no leg to stand on, which I believe to be incorrect. And also to point out that all those posters insisting you must always hold a valid ticket are incorrect, as there are cases where you can legitimately travel without a ticket.

dats_right

Victor wrote: »

If you can buy a ticket before boarding, you must.

An appeal will fail in this case.

In accordance with the bye-laws/legislation covering fares that is what you might expect, but District Court Judges have a very wide discretion. And often, depending on the circumstances, decide to apply the Probation Act (or even strik-out/dismiss the fine altogether) with or without a small donation to charity or somesuch in cases such as these. So dismissing any hope of suceeding with an apeal isn't necessarily correct.

Ham'nd'egger

MOH, the TVMs at a station are provided by the "Board" and covers their obligation to provide you with the facility to supply a ticket. They are providing the means to purchase a ticket at the station so again the onus is on the passenger to carry a valid ticket.

In the point Dats_right makes, Victor refers to appealing to Irish Rail over a fine and not a court.

Turnip2000

Thanks to all but i got my reply today....and as you all said...it was a negative. My fault for being so naive.:o

Mylow

Stark wrote: »

The people who get away with paying at the destination would most likely be people who got on at stations where the ticket booth was closed. I've had to do this a few times when travelling from Castleknock to Drumcondra.

I turned up at Castleknock one evening and tried to buy a ticket. The bloke in ticket office said he wouldn't take a €50 note because he was short of change, told me to go to shop to get change. Anyone who know's where the station is will realise it's a good 15 min return walk. He wouldnt let me travel and pay at other end. To say I was fuming would be putting it mildly.

MOH

Hamndegger wrote: »

MOH, the TVMs at a station are provided by the "Board" and covers their obligation to provide you with the facility to supply a ticket. They are providing the means to purchase a ticket at the station so again the onus is on the passenger to carry a valid ticket.

In the point Dats_right makes, Victor refers to appealing to Irish Rail over a fine and not a court.

So an adult travelling with children is obliged to purchase adult tickets for them from a TVM if the station is unattended?

Ham'nd'egger

MOH wrote: »

So an adult travelling with children is obliged to purchase adult tickets for them from a TVM if the station is unattended?

If that is the only applicable ticket that the TVM sells then the answer is yes. I'd be suprised if a TVM doesn't issue child tickets, is that so?

H-Dub

Hey, Just got a 50 euro fine for thinking that I could get on the Dart at Howth, and pay at the other end (Connolly), like I have at least 50 times before... Apparently not, when I went up to ask to buy a ticket, I was directed to some bloke, who then charged me 50 quid!! I was reading some of the other postings on this... Has anyone actually succeeded in their appeals?? If so how?
This was a completely honest mistake... I get the dart frequently, and have never seen any specific mention of this coming into effect!

paulm17781

This has been in effect since 1984. The problem is Irish rail only started enforcing it properly about a year ago which has led to lots of people getting stung. You could try to write to them and explain it was an honest mistake but you're probably as well off paying it and not doing it again.

MOH

Hamndegger wrote: »

If that is the only applicable ticket that the TVM sells then the answer is yes. I'd be suprised if a TVM doesn't issue child tickets, is that so?

I can't see IE winning if it went to court after someone tried to buy a child ticket at destination after travelling from an unstaffed station with a TVM. (And I still believe bye-law 4 entitles you to travel without a ticket once the station is unattended, regardless of the presence of a TVM, and whether or not it sells the relevant ticket.)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055383553http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055383553

Anyway, this is gone a bit off-topic.

Ham'nd'egger

MOH wrote: »

I can't see IE winning if it went to court after someone tried to buy a child ticket at destination after travelling from an unstaffed station with a TVM. (And I still believe bye-law 4 entitles you to travel without a ticket once the station is unattended, regardless of the presence of a TVM, and whether or not it sells the relevant ticket.)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055383553http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055383553

Anyway, this is gone a bit off-topic.

I'd differ with you on part 4 but not enough to take it to court, and yes it has gotten off topic.

Thanks for the thread BTW, some interesting reading in it.

Victor

There is no absolute obligation to use TVMs (a) there aren't mentioned in the bye-laws and (b) they only sell certain tickets.

Run_to_da_hills

Unfortunately in recent years Irish Rail have decided to go down the same heavy handedness road of many European counterpart including British and German transit companies on the non payment of fares. The Difference is that CIE have not got their act together.

Many are genuine customers who were not able to purchase tickets at the point of departure others are professional ticket evaders, Unfortunately all branded in the same category and are guilty until proven innocent. I passed through Tara st station one night and It was like a cold war border check point with Rail police and ticket inspectors.

paulm17781

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Many are genuine customers who were not able to purchase tickets at the point of departure others are professional ticket evaders, Unfortunately all branded in the same category and are guilty until proven innocent. I passed through Tara st station one night and It was like a cold war border check point with Rail police and ticket inspectors.

We don't have rail police in this country.

Run_to_da_hills

paulm17781 wrote: »

We don't have rail police in this country.

These guys then. http://www.stt.ie/security-page29329.html

spiderman1885

TVM's... what happens if the person cant read... honestly like? how do they get a ticket?

And they're regularly broken at my station, n ur man in the office likes to go off for a coffee around 10 every morning, then disappears for quite a bit of the day.

alot of older people mite be overwhelmed by using these machines too... n I highly doubt if they approached the "man in Connolly" he'd fine them.


In the Uk it is done so much better, the ticket inspectors come along on every train... if u dont have a ticket, you buy one from him/her its a better system! N would avoid the ridiculous money making scheme! Sounds like these lads are on commission!

IRISH RAIL

I was going to post something there but I aint going to bother
Ham`n`egger is spot on in all his replies moh is not TVM`s have been provided by the board to purchase a ticket before depature so if you fail to use one thats evasion

like wise for the poster who went from howth to connolly buy your ticket

Do people here go to dunnes stores get there food and bring it home then pay for it ?? no they pay before they leave the store, if it wasnt for the governments cut backs we might still have ticket sellers on most trains giving work to people.

jack90210

Questions for people who have been caught with this, as I believe its a joke and anyone could easily be caught by honest mistake or when both machines are broken and theres no one in the station:

What do they ask you for as regards ID?
What if you refuse?
Will they physically touch you to hold you at the station?

Turnip2000

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Do people here go to dunnes stores get there food and bring it home then pay for it ?? no they pay before they leave the store,

if it wasnt for the governments cut backs we might still have ticket sellers on most trains giving work to people.

Bit of a silly analogy..... technically you haven't left irish rails "store" when you get off the train at Conolly and we showed no intent of evasion. Thats was the point. We weren't looking for sympathy just advice on appealing and if it was plausible.

And i read the other day(on the train) that Irish rail blow 500K a year on trains that run with nobody on them so ya cant really blame the government for making a few "cut backs".

H-Dub

like wise for the poster who went from howth to connolly buy your ticket

Do people here go to dunnes stores get there food and bring it home then pay for it ?? no they pay before they leave the store, if it wasnt for the governments cut backs we might still have ticket sellers on most trains giving work to people.

What? that's not the same thing at all... not even close really! So, every restaurant you go into, you pay for your meal up front? Is that a fact?

My problem is the fact that I have been doing this for literally years... It's a simple choice, stop, buy the ticket and miss the train, then have to wait 30 mins for another (not really plausable if your are in a rush for work), or get on the train and pay at your destination, which has been accepted for years.

It's not as if I was caught red handed trying to sneak through, which I could have done considering the swarms of people. But I actually went up and asked to buy a ticket from Howth to Connolly.

It seems I am getting penalised for being honest. Surely I am the wrong target for this "No Ticket, No Excuse"! Should they not be targeting people who are actively trying to deceive the system?? It was a genuine mistake.

Run_to_da_hills

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Do people here go to dunnes stores get there food and bring it home then pay for it ?? .

Yes, if they are using their credit cards

Stark

H-Dub wrote:

My problem is the fact that I have been doing this for literally years... It's a simple choice, stop, buy the ticket and miss the train, then have to wait 30 mins for another (not really plausable if your are in a rush for work), or get on the train and pay at your destination, which has been accepted for years.

There's a 3rd choice there. Show up in time to buy a ticket.

Seth Brundle

What I don't understand is the double stance taken by IR.
If you get on at Broombridge and plan on paying at your destination you are not fined.
If you get on pretty much anywhere else and plan on paying at your destination you are fined.

KC61

kbannon wrote: »

What I don't understand is the double stance taken by IR.
If you get on at Broombridge and plan on paying at your destination you are not fined.
If you get on pretty much anywhere else and plan on paying at your destination you are fined.

There is no double stance. Broombridge is an unstaffed station, so it is impossible to pay there. The numbers using that station are so small that the costs of manning it would far outweigh the revenues, so there is no point in having a booking office there.

All of the other stations have booking offices, where people have the opportunity to buy a ticket. When the booking office at those stations is closed, then you pay at the destination. Simple as that.

MOH

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I was going to post something there but I aint going to bother
Ham`n`egger is spot on in all his replies moh is not TVM`s have been provided by the board to purchase a ticket before depature so if you fail to use one thats evasion

So then you think it's correct that if you're travelling with children you have to buy them an adult ticket if the station is unstaffed and there's a TVM there, which doesn't sell the correct ticket? Or if you're trying to get any of the other ticket options which aren't available from TVMs, you should just go ahead pay a dearer fare?

If you're enititled to buy a particular type of ticket which would be available from the booking office, and the TVM doesn't supply it, then how can you argue that "the Board" have given you the opportunity to purchase your ticket?

KC61

MOH wrote: »

So then you think it's correct that if you're travelling with children you have to buy them an adult ticket if the station is unstaffed and there's a TVM there, which doesn't sell the correct ticket? Or if you're trying to get any of the other ticket options which aren't available from TVMs, you should just go ahead pay a dearer fare?

If you're enititled to buy a particular type of ticket which would be available from the booking office, and the TVM doesn't supply it, then how can you argue that "the Board" have given you the opportunity to purchase your ticket?

There is no obligation to use a TVM if the booking office is closed.

The only obligation to buy a ticket is when the booking office is open. Some tickets are only available from the booking office, and as such cannot be bought if the office is shut! In that case, you pay at the destination.

Einstein

did he just hand u a fine over the counter? does he have any details about you? name, address?

Victor

kbannon wrote: »

What I don't understand is the double stance taken by IR.
If you get on at Broombridge and plan on paying at your destination you are not fined.
If you get on pretty much anywhere else and plan on paying at your destination you are fined.

No, it is consistant - if you can buy your ticket before you board, you must.