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UCD security guards

Redrover1999

Does anybody know why there are so many security guards outside the library at night lurking around in groups?

It's a bit sh!t having power-tripping security guards ready to order you around, it's suposed to be university, not a nightclub?

What is the point of them?

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Dr Strange

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

Ah ok, thanks for your edit.

Have a look at my link page 125. It's the third paragraph on that page. It can also be found on the Incoming students 2008 page on the UCD site.

Dr Strange

Jeez edits are done quicker here than I can follow in my old days.

Stabshauptmann

28.81mb, this is taking a while...

Stabshauptmann

Preusse wrote: »

Have a look at my link page 125. It's the third paragraph on that page. It can also be found on the Incoming students 2008 page on the UCD site.

ok. It does say that, but from a legal perspective, thats not a policy document nor does it claim to be so. The page is there to help explain/simplify UCD policies [edit] - so what you quoted isnt "the exact text of the regulation".

It does not state that in any policies or on the card itself that it must be carried at all times and produced without reason. And unless one was an incoming student for 2008 one could not be reasonable expected to have seen that document.

As such that source has little to no weight.

UCD disciplinary proceedings are internal matters governed by the universities own rules, but you can engage a solicitor and the principles that are applied in Irish legal matters are given due weight.

Whether one must carry your student card is not unequivocally stated in any UCD policy Ive seen, and failure to carry / produce one is not listed as a Breach of Discipline. I dont think UCD would able to successfully discipline you for failing to carry / produce it

Raphael

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I remember the old days when security would make you down open cans.

I've seen the new lads do that.

Dr Strange

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

ok. It does say that, but from a legal perspective, thats not a policy document nor does it claim to be so. The page is there to help explain/simplify UCD policies.

It does not state that in any policies or on the card itself that it must be carried at all times and produced without reason. And unless one was an incoming student for 2008 one could not be reasonable expected to have seen that document.

As such that source has little to no weight.

UCD disciplinary proceedings are internal matters governed by the universities own rules, but you can engage a solicitor and the principles that are applied in Irish legal matters are given due weight.

Whether one must carry your student card is not unequivocally stated in any UCD policy Ive seen, and failure to carry / produce one is not listed as a Breach of Discipline. I dont think UCD would able to successfully discipline you for failing to carry / produce it

Well, it's not only for 2008 students. Each consecutive policies and regulations document over the years had this phrase in it. If a student doesn't read it it's not the universities problem. And if you want to argue your point with the help of a solicitor when stopped and found without student ID it is also up to you. Fact is, it's stated clearly in regulations and policies. You either abide by it or you don't and I don't see any reason why anyone would willingly breach this regulation bar they are on some kind fight the power crusade. If you actively look for trouble you'll get trouble.

If I was a staff member I would take this policy word for word and if I request to see the student card of a student during my working hours I expect them to produce it. Otherwise I would consider, depending on the situation, further measures to deal with the situation.

Stabshauptmann

Preusse wrote: »

Well, it's not only for 2008 students.

On the UCD website its under "Incoming Students 08". Not every student was provided a copy of it.
These are facts.

Each consecutive policies and regulations document over the years had this phrase in it.

can you please be so helpful as to show me where?

If a student doesn't read it it's not the universities problem.

Its about whats reasonably expected. If I dont read the code of conduct or the alcohol policy thats not UCD's problem. I know they exist, I know where they are and Ive agreed to be bound by them.
Should a post grad be reasonably expected to read the freshers guide? No.

And if you want to argue your point with the help of a solicitor when stopped and found without student ID it is also up to you. Fact is, it's stated clearly in regulations and policies.

Where?!
Ive linked to the 2008/2009 student code - its not there.

You either abide by it or you don't and I don't see any reason why anyone would willingly breach this regulation bar they are on some kind fight the power crusade. If you actively look for trouble you'll get trouble.

Stick around this board, Im vary rarely in favour of the little man. The truth is that people have a tendency to abuse their power and UCD has tried to strong arm me a couple of times. They never succeded because I know my rights

As a staff member I will take this policy word for word and if I request to see the student card of a student during my working hours I expect them to produce it. Otherwise I will consider, depending on the situation, further measures to deal with the situation.

You dont understand what a policy is. What you quoted was not a policy. This is a policy http://www.ucd.ie/registry/academicsecretariat/student_code.pdf. The above is enforceable. An simplification given by someone in marketing or the student desk is not.

Dr Strange

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

can you please be so helpful as to show me where?

Old editions are no longer available I'm afraid. As I have read them year after year I know the phrase has been in there. It has been discussed ad nauseam by staff members.

As for the rest, I don't have the time to reply to all this. However, I am certain that many staff members take that phrase word for word.

Stabshauptmann

Preusse wrote: »

Old editions are no longer available I'm afraid. As I have read them year after year I know the phrase has been in there. It has been discussed ad nauseam by staff members.

As for the rest, I don't have the time to reply to all this. However, I am certain that many staff members take that phrase word for word.

They can do so to their hearts content, but I know from experience they cant enforce it.

If Im in a lecture theatre and Im causing noise the lecture can ask for my card, if I dont provide it thats a problem and action can be taken. (though if I dont have it I can produce it at a later date).

Now if Im in coppers on Friday and I see a cute girl I know from UCD and I demand her student card as I am staff - Im a tutor in a different course than her for arguments sake, and she refuses she is well within her rights.

Dr Strange

Is coppers on the campus? I don't know this place. I am talking about on-campus policies. Whatever you do outside has nothing to do with your student card unless you misuse it. In any case, I wouldn't tell any student to disregard the policies no matter in what document form is provided. It is better to be on the safe side and to be honest, I cannot see a reason for not carrying your student card on campus. Students always bang on about their rights but with rights come duties and responsibilities. Anyone can have a good time while being a student without having to resort to criminal activity or destructive behaviour (e.g. damaging student residences/university property).

Stabshauptmann

Preusse wrote: »

Is coppers on the campus? I don't know this place. I am talking about on-campus policies. Whatever you do outside has nothing to do with your student card unless you misuse it.

The inconsistencies make my eyes bleed.
Either it has no bearing or it doesnt, you cant pix and mix to suit your wants and thats why its important people know their rights.

I was giving you an example of how you "understanding" of the policy wouldnt work.

In any case, I wouldn't tell any student to disregard the policies no matter in what document form is provided.

Neither would I. Im telling them, and you, to know what they are.
You have no idea what the policy is , or even what a policy is.

It is better to be on the safe side and to be honest, I cannot see a reason for not carrying your student card on campus.

I would/have/and would encourge people not to surrender your student card to anyone likely to abuse their "power".

Students always bang on about their rights but with rights come duties and responsibilities. Anyone can have a good time while being a student without having to resort to criminal activity or destructive behaviour (e.g. damaging student residences/university property).

Agreed. Its quid pro quo.

Dr Strange

As you said further up you seem to have a problem with UCD in general. That's certainly your own problem and colours your argument.

As for inconsistencies. You provide an example of a situation in a place located outside UCD. What does that have to do with the on-campus policy? Nothing at all. I am afraid you have not understood the meaning of on-campus regulations. As you said you couldn't find anything in the Students Code. As I said, it is not in the Code but in Regulations and Policies.

For me the sentence is clear:

UCD Student ID Cards
Students must carry their student card with them at all times. They
must produce it for a member of staff when requested to do so.

However, I am not going to discuss this further as your tone of argument seems to grow quite agressive.

Stabshauptmann

Not aggressive, just frustrated with you inability to comprehend what a policy is.

I have no problem with UCD in general, but the problems of general muppets in society is also a problem in UCD

Tayto2000

Hoi Kaptain... slight misundertanding here I think. My point is they want to establish your identity by looking at your student card... All the other stuff is irrelevant...

Here's the current policy on cards from the registration website:

http://www.ucd.ie/registry/studentdesk/stucard%20info.htm

Notice the bit about 'remains property of'? As a staff member, you _could_ demand a UCD student card from someone you know is a UCD student in Coppers... It would make you an **hole and probably have other unpleasant (official?) consequences for you down the line, but you could do it. If you signed up at registration, you agreed to abide by all the UCD rules and regs, no matter how outdated or unfair they are...

I'm guessing your experiences on the student card thing dates back to the glory days of the first society to use the secret lake to it's full potential

Stabshauptmann

They're terms and conditions, not a policy, but we wont split hairs.
However, as before with the calender, they are not the terms and conditions but an explanation of the terms and conditions. The terms and conditions are on the back of your student card, and they only say when proof of identity is required. required and requested are not the same thing.

I suspect that the policies, terms and conditions etc are written or at least reviewed by legal eagles. These you must obey. The calender, website etc have no weight.

It is my understanding that nodoby, not even the gardaí or the minister for justice himself can force you to produce ID without cause.

edit: Note any opinions expressed in this post are just that, opinion, and not intended as legal advice

Tayto2000

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

They're terms and conditions, not a policy, but we wont split hairs.
However, as before with the calender, they are not the terms and conditions but an explanation* of the terms and conditions. The terms and conditions are on the back of your student card, and they only say when proof of identity is required. required and requested are not the same thing.

I suspect that the policies, terms and conditions etc are written or at least reviewed by legal eagles. These you must obey. The calender, website etc have no weight.

It is my understanding that nodoby, not even the gardaí or the minister for justice himself can force you to produce ID without cause.

*Not legally binding, and not the sole interpretation possible. If all regulations where unambiguous I might be out of a job

None of it is legally binding! Point is, it's agreed to at registration. Any consequences arising would also be those agreed and signed up to ie disciplinary hearings etc. All this stuff about the gardai is irrelevant, no-one is going to arrest you for refusing to show a student card, but you _can_ be subjected to the UCD procedures which you agreed to by signing up for and obtaining that card.

For instance, what happens if you're recognised going into a lecture the following day after claiming not to be a student the night before? Gardai? No, but you would be liable to UCDs own disciplinary procedures...

... BTW, have you considered representing people at disciplinaries? You'd get plenty of business if the observer is to be believed...

Stabshauptmann

The crux of the matter is this.

UCD has powers/rights. One of them is that they can ask for your student card. This power can be delegated to inter alia pulse security. That power can only be exercised for bone fide reasons eg you are drinking in front of the arts block.

If there is no legitimate reason for you to need to prove you identity then you dont need to produce ID. It is not a breach of the student code and you cannot be disciplined.

You'll find that obeying the ucd student code and the terms and conditions attached to the student card are legally binding, you are party to a contract one of the conditions of which is obeying the above.

*Again, not legal advice

graduate

Presumably if you are unwilling to show you are a student, by producing your student card or some other reasonable measure, then the security can escort you to the gate.

Redrover1999

Has anybody thought of taking this issue up via the student union?

There is definitely a need for security but they have to realise it is a campus, and that they can't throw their weight around.

Stabshauptmann

graduate wrote: »

Presumably if you are unwilling to show you are a student, by producing your student card or some other reasonable measure, then the security can escort you to the gate.

Yes. If you cant prove you're a student they may ask you to leave, if you refuse they can use reasonable force or call the gardaí. Reasonable force in this case probably wouldnt extend beyond barring your way and gently "herding" you in my opinion

Night Flight

PULSE Security are being discussed elsewhere: evidently they're not actually licensed to do certain things that they claim on their website

http://www.pulsesecurity.ie/index.php

See "Services"

Services:
Manned static guarding

Door security personnel

Event security

VIPs corporate security

Close protection officers national & international

Risk management

Consultancy:
Event organising

Personal security

Investigations

and "Training"

Training:
Basic Guarding

Door security

Fire warden & evacuation

Security Para medicine trauma & BLS & AEDs

Health & Safety Solutions

Driver security awareness

Surveillance management

Security awareness

However, on the Private Security Authority Register (page 21)
http://www.psa.gov.ie/Website/psa/psa.nsf/0887E2069891A98180257143002BA583/$File/Private%20Security%20Authority%20Register%20of%20Licence%20Holders%20(05-12-2008).pdf

PULSE is only licensed for

01B. Door Supervisor (Licensed Premises)
02C. Security Guard (Static)

Raphael

Em, considering on their website it lists the various kinds of license you can get as:

door supervisor
supplier or installer of security equipment
private investigator
security consultant
security guard
- Security Guarding (Static)
- Alarm Receiving Centre
provider of protected forms of transport
locksmith
supplier or installer of safes

And none of the services PULSE provide fall under anything other than the two they have, I think you may be wrong there.

Edit: Exception: Security Consultancy. But all the rest are fine.

Wacko

Raphael wrote: »

Em, considering on their website it lists the various kinds of license you can get as:
door supervisor

supplier or installer of security equipment

private investigator

security consultant

security guard
Security Guarding (Static)

Alarm Receiving Centre

provider of protected forms of transport

locksmith

supplier or installer of safes

And none of the services PULSE provide fall under anything other than the two they have, I think you may be wrong there.

Edit: Exception: Security Consultancy. But all the rest are fine.

I´m a bit confused, what is the definition of a static secuirty guard ? Are they someone who sits in a box at a building site and rings the guards when something goes wrong or are they people who patrol and stop anything they see themselves ?

Riamfada

Static security is someone who is present on a premises for any duration of time in any form. Be it in a box at a car park or patroling a premises. So yes, they are licenced to be in UCD as static patrols.

Notorious

The only encounter I've had with the UCD heavies was on the last day of term. I had parked behind the Arts block, and was trying to scrape some of the ice off my window. Two of my mates were sitting in the car. One security guard just walked close to the car and stared at me. I kindly stared back, which resulted in him asking for my student card. I decided I'd be difficult and see where it'd get me, and he insisted on seeing my student card, as well as the lads in the car. I asked if there was a problem, and he just stuck his head in the open front door and looked at the lads, asked if we were drinking and then walked away when he realised we weren't. I don't know how he thought I could be drinking when I'm standing in the freezing cold trying to get ice off the car...

He never even noticed that practically every car around mine was packed with students drinking away. He just walked away without even checking them. Eejit.

delta_bravo

Notorious wrote: »

Eejit.

Him or you? Whats the point in antagonising them, he was just doing his job

Notorious

delta_bravo wrote: »

Him or you? Whats the point in antagonising them, he was just doing his job

I didn't antagonise anybody. I ended up giving him my student card, but I don't think it was reasonable that I get hassled for being in a car park. Especially since he singled out the one group of people who weren't doing anything wrong, and ignored all those that were. Bit of a joke, no? I could understand it if he was checking everyone out.

I haven't read all the posts, but I'm sure its been mentioned that on the same day, the last day of the semester, the security blocked access to Merville student residences. I can only presume that they didn't want people congregating around the area like they did at the end of the second semester last year. All we were looking to do was to go to Centra for a roll. I think blocking access completely was a bit drastic. They even had a queue of cars blocking up the road because they couldn't drive into the Merville car park, where they live!

Tayto2000

Notorious wrote: »

I didn't antagonise anybody.

Notorious wrote: »

I decided I'd be difficult and see where it'd get me

Seem to be contradicting yourself a bit...

Security do what they're told by the college. As thrashed out elsewhere, the res entrances were on instruction from the res manager. So what's the relevance here? Eejits for doing what they're told?

Raphael

Night Flight: Discussion of IBA is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Please try to remain on-topic.