Unknowability of divinity/"God"?

Dades · 23-09-2008 10:02am

all the stars wrote: »

I mean, why do people need to validate their beliefs, or throw them about so much.

Interesting question. Maybe you could wait outside a church next Sunday and ask people as they leave?

all the stars · 23-09-2008 10:05am

Zillah wrote: »

The fact that nothing is 100% doesn't mean that everything is equal.

If you were gambling, and one choice had a 1% chance and the other had 99%, would you shrug and go on about how nothing in life is 100%?

To me that's faith versus atheism.

Regardless, the fact that neither option is 100% means it is not a sure thing.

however, in real life, i dont gamble.

20goto10 · 23-09-2008 10:07am

brianthebard wrote: »

That's not really respect then is it, its censorship.

Who's being arrogant now? You have the right to spread your lies and nobody is allowed to say boo to you.

brianthebard wrote: »

What is the longest running cult you were referring to so?

Point taken. But its still a longer running cult. My point still stands.

all the stars · 23-09-2008 10:08am

Dades wrote: »

Interesting question. Maybe you could wait outside a church next Sunday and ask people as they leave?

i can see the title on "the Star" now.... local girl beaten to death by local christian thugs or something mad like that :pac:

brianthebard · 23-09-2008 10:08am

20goto10 wrote: »

Who's being arrogant now? You have the right to spread your lies and nobody is allowed to say boo to you.

The lies of agnosticism?

Point taken. But its still a longer running cult. My point still stands.

Well perhaps, except you are equating religion with Catholicism, and a hatred for the latter with the former.

Zillah · 23-09-2008 10:11am

all the stars wrote: »

Regardless, the fact that neither option is 100% means it is not a sure thing.

however, in real life, i dont gamble.

This is hilarious.

You first state that NOTHING is 100%, but then state that you NEVER gamble.

By your own criteria, you take a terrible gamble every second of every day. You can't be 100% sure that reading this post won't give you a heart attack, but you'll make that gamble anyway. Want a cup of tea? Aliens might abduct you on the way to the kitchen, its not 100% guaranteed that they won't!

In the same way that you dismiss the idea of a vampire drinking your blood on the way to the shop, I dismiss the idea of there being a God. Neither are 100%, but we're quite right to laugh our asses off at anyone who takes these ridiculous notions seriously.

all the stars · 23-09-2008 10:27am

Zillah wrote: »

This is hilarious.

You first state that NOTHING is 100%, but then state that you NEVER gamble.

By your own criteria, you take a terrible gamble every second of every day. You can't be 100% sure that reading this post won't give you a heart attack, but you'll make that gamble anyway. Want a cup of tea? Aliens might abduct you on the way to the kitchen, its not 100% guaranteed that they won't!

In the same way that you dismiss the idea of a vampire drinking your blood on the way to the shop, I dismiss the idea of there being a God. Neither are 100%, but we're quite right to laugh our asses off at anyone who takes these ridiculous notions seriously.

see, i know earlier in my post i said i dont gamble... i mean the lotto, poker, black jack etc
.
i dont really consider existing a gamble. (in refrence to the cup of tea comment and having a heart attack comment)

Also, earlier in the post i said people just wind up poking fun at others beliefs so whats the point of getting into a proper debate... and there you go, proving the point by saying my personal views are hilarious.:rolleyes:
Actually they aren't.

But yes.... poke fun all you want at everyone. They will love you for it...

all the stars · 23-09-2008 10:38am

Also,

i said neither is 100% (referring to christianity/atheism).... i didnt say nothing is 100%.

Buddah existed. 100%. no room for questioning there.
(i dont know much about buddism but that much i do know)

20goto10 · 23-09-2008 11:12am

all the stars wrote: »

Also,

i said neither is 100% (referring to christianity/atheism).... i didnt say nothing is 100%.

Buddah existed. 100%. no room for questioning there.
(i dont know much about buddism but that much i do know)

What about the flying spghetti monster? You can't prove he exists therefore there is the possibility. Do you sit on the fence about that? Of course not. Because its ridiculous. Now give the spaghetti monster a bible and tell children if they don't believe in him and his preachings then when they die they will be sent to a damp dark cave that smells of poo. Manipulate their minds so that they will truly believe it and grow up truly terrified of doubting the spaghetti bible. Now give it a few hundred years and you have a new god.

Now instead of people calling me an arrogant twat, give me an argument as to why any other god is any different? What about the greek gods? And what of all the people who truly believed in them?

robindch · 23-09-2008 11:26am

Zillah wrote: »

Hello Mr Atheist, do you believe in God?
No.

Hello Mr Agnostic, do you believe in God?
I'm not sure.

No, no, no, no and no!

An atheist can "believe in" god, in the sense that an atheist can believe that the abstract concept of a deity exists, or believe that the abstract concept of the existence of a deity exists.

It's the difference between asserting the existence of an abstract concept with "believe in" versus a concrete reality with "believe". This difference is a linguistic beartrap that exists in many languages other than English and very carefully allows people with entirely different views of deities, to appear to agree upon a common position.

Dades · 23-09-2008 11:31am

20goto10 wrote: »

Now instead of calling me an arrogant twat, give me an argument as to why any other god is any different?

all the stars never implied you were anything of the sort in any of her posts, and you intimating that she did only serves to show this tangent is becoming blurred beyond the point of usefulness.

Unless someone wants to respond to robindch, this thread is approaching End of Days.

all the stars · 23-09-2008 11:33am

20goto10 wrote: »

What about the flying spghetti monster? You can't prove he exists therefore there is the possibility. Do you sit on the fence about that? Of course not. Because its ridiculous. Now give the spaghetti monster a bible and tell children if they don't believe in him and his preachings then when they die they will be sent to a damp dark cave that smells of poo. Manipulate their minds so that they will truly believe it and grow up truly terrified of doubting the spaghetti bible. Now give it a few hundred years and you have a new god. Now instead of calling me an arrogant twat, give me an argument as to why any other god is any different? What about the greek gods? And what of all the people who truly believed in them?

did you not read my posts on this thread? here's a snippet:
"Ages ago i would have jumped into a discussion about stuff like this, but i've always wondered why people feel the need to really go into their religious (or lack of) beliefs so aggressively with people of a differant scope/religion/ whatever..

I mean, realitstically, no-one will be changing their own personal views (read any of the debates in the christian threads) so whats the gain of trying to discuss it?"

Now to awnser you: (your more serious point):

I am not doubting the ancient greek religions. I'm not questioning them either or saying anything about them. People believed in it and many still "pray" to the greek panthenons... also, never called anybody any names ("arrogant twat" to quote you) and have been defending everyones right to ones own belief, and the privacy to practise whatever one chooses without having others talk smack about it..
pick an arguement with someone else. :cool:

pH · 23-09-2008 11:43am

all the stars wrote: »

did you not read my posts on this thread? here's a snippet:
"Ages ago i would have jumped into a discussion about stuff like this, but i've always wondered why people feel the need to really go into their religious (or lack of) beliefs so aggressively with people of a differant scope/religion/ whatever..

I mean, realitstically, no-one will be changing their own personal views (read any of the debates in the christian threads) so whats the gain of trying to discuss it?"

And we've had this posted here before. Look around you, all our primary schools are religious, we couldn't buy a condom in this country until 1985, homosexuals are still denied basic rights, remember the Magdelene laundries (the last one closed in 1996)? I could go on.

This is not a pointless debate, to be honest I couldn't care less if they don't change their minds, when the religious are happy to accept their faith as a private matter then there'll be less point in discussing it.

Oh and Christmas ... those bloody Christians have stolen it, and are still trying to make it religious, we want it changed back to the celebration of indulgence it was always meant to be, they can pick another random day to have a church service on.

all the stars · 23-09-2008 11:52am

pH wrote: »

all our primary schools are religious,

no they aren't... i live in the midlands and there is non denominational "Educate toghether" school here.... surely in the cities there are also...

pH wrote: »

we couldn't buy a condom in this country until 1985, homosexuals are still denied basic rights, remember the Magdelene laundries (the last one closed in 1996)? I could go on.

This is not a pointless debate, to be honest I couldn't care less if they don't change their minds, when the religious are happy to accept their faith as a private matter then there'll be less point in discussing it.

Oh and Christmas ... those bloody Christians have stolen it, and are still trying to make it religious, we want it changed back to the celebration of indulgence it was always meant to be, they can pick another random day to have a church service on.

I just dont appreciate everyone aggressively bashing everyone's beliefs... it doesn't move things forward.
Im all about moving forward (with most things actually).

More acceptance is needed, i find it hard to get how closed off people are.. thats all. Possibly i should just exit this thread at this point.

Even my comments hoping for more acceptance & less "Bible bashing" and also less anti "Bible Bashing" are ignored.

axer · 23-09-2008 12:05pm

all the stars wrote: »

no they aren't... i live in the midlands and there is non denominational "Educate toghether" school here.... surely in the cities there are also...

92% of primary schools in Ireland are managed by the catholic church but yet the percentage of catholics in Ireland is much lower than that. That is completely wrong and is not fair on non-catholics.

There is no way that unfounded beliefs should be pushed on so many people via brainwashing in the schools (thought as fact) or otherwise - it is immoral.

Fact is the catholic church still affects the lives of those who are not catholic thus Atheists have a right to be angry about that.

20goto10 · 23-09-2008 12:07pm

Dades wrote: »

all the stars never implied you were anything of the sort in any of her posts, and you intimating that she did only serves to show this tangent is becoming blurred beyond the point of usefulness.
.

I never said she did. Maybe that should be on a different paragraph directed at no-one in particular. Sorry to all the stars for that it wasn't intended to have a go. The rest was though

all the stars · 23-09-2008 12:13pm

axer wrote: »

92% of primary schools in Ireland are managed by the catholic church but yet the percentage of catholics in Ireland is much lower than that. That is completely wrong and is not fair on non-catholics.

There is no way that unfounded beliefs should be pushed on so many people via brainwashing in the schools (thought as fact) or otherwise - it is immoral.

Fact is the catholic church still affects the lives of those who are not catholic thus Atheists have a right to be angry about that.

grand. not that this matters, but im not catholic. and i dont feel hard done- by.
In fact i went to a convent - secondary school. It didn't bug me much at all... in fact i enjoyed winding up my religion teacher...
Instead of giving out about the schools being this way, maybe become a teacher, work to open more non religious schools... do something about it.
Change what you aren't happy with. Thats all im saying...
The majority of the country has always been catholic so naturally the school system will reflect that.

i've adopted the mantra
"be the change you want to see in the world"
It works.

20goto10 · 23-09-2008 12:22pm

all the stars wrote: »

no they aren't... i live in the midlands and there is non denominational "Educate toghether" school here.... surely in the cities there are also...

I just dont appreciate everyone aggressively bashing everyone's beliefs... it doesn't move things forward.
Im all about moving forward (with most things actually).

More acceptance is needed, i find it hard to get how closed off people are.. thats all. Possibly i should just exit this thread at this point.
Even my comments hoping for more acceptance & less "Bible bashing" and also less anti "Bible Bashing" are ignored.

I agree you should be allowed to believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind. But as far as acceptance goes, I think there should be less. everyone who comes out with a comment on the origins and meaning of life or anything at all should be subjected to scrutiny.....everyone. Christian, Muslim, scientist, atheist, mormon, scientologist etc etc.

Scientists are the only ones subjected to scrutiny and this is what makes it the truth...99.99% as there's always room for more scrutinising and quite rightly so. Faith did not send men to the moon or robots to Mars.

Take the Climate Change debate for example of what I mean. Why should we not have the same debate about religion? Religion is protected for the quite obvious reason that it is completely made up and can be blown out of the water by a 5 year old. Its been backed into a corner and its only way out is dirty tactics (I refer to Creationism and particularly teaching it to children in schools and out).

pH · 23-09-2008 12:24pm

all the stars wrote: »

no they aren't... i live in the midlands and there is non denominational "Educate toghether" school here.... surely in the cities there are also...

all right not all ... 99% ... from educate together ...

However, there are currently approximately 3,150 National Schools in Ireland, 99% of which are under the patronage of denominational patrons and are not owned by the State. The Education Act 1998 copper fastens the religious nature of these schools and the Education Welfare Act 2000 obliges parents to have their children in recognised programmes of education.
http://www.educatetogether.ie/2_campaigns/legalchallenges.html

That 1% obviously makes a difference, does it make you feel all warm and inclusive now? For all practical purposes, primary schools are currently all religious, unless you want to dump your kids in a SUV and drive them miles twice a day, for most people the local school is religious.

More acceptance is needed, i find it hard to get how closed off people are.. thats all. Possibly i should just exit this thread at this point.
Even my comments hoping for more acceptance & less "Bible bashing" and also less anti "Bible Bashing" are ignored.

There really is lots of acceptance for those whose beliefs are a private matter. You're right however, I'm totally "closed off" to living my life by anyone else's religious rules, and I'd hazard a guess that if I picked a religion at random, let's say Scientology, you'd be fairly "closed off" to auditing and thetans if these people had the power to force them on society.

axer · 23-09-2008 12:25pm

all the stars wrote: »

grand. not that this matters, but im not catholic. and i dont feel hard done- by.
In fact i went to a convent - secondary school. It didn't bug me much at all... in fact i enjoyed winding up my religion teacher...

I think it is different in secondary schools since the students are older and are able to see how stupid the argument is. It is, however, a different story in primary school where the young students have a mallable brain whereby they are literally brainwashed into think this rubbish is fact without any proof.

all the stars wrote: »

Instead of giving out about the schools being this way, maybe become a teacher, work to open more non religious schools... do something about it.

My sister is a primary school teacher and would like to leave the catholic church like I have but then she would have a problem getting a job. I can't see how me becoming a teacher could change this.

all the stars wrote: »

Change what you aren't happy with. Thats all im saying...

and how do you go about doing that? by debating with those that oppose it?

all the stars wrote: »

The majority of the country has always been catholic so naturally the school system will reflect that.

It doesn't make it right.

all the stars wrote: »

i've adopted the mantra
"be the change you want to see in the world"
It works.

I have left the catholic church but yet the world hasn't changed - they still effect me.

Maybe if more "catholics who really aren't catholics" left the church then things might change but people have this impression (because they were brainwashed as children) that you shouldn't leave the church because it would be wrong to do so. Some of my sisters could not understand why I would do such a thing, my parents were not happy (although they knew they had no say in the matter of course), even one or two of my friends thought it was silly and couldn't understand why.

The only way things will change is if more people (who are not really cathlolics) leave the catholic church. That is why it is good to debate these issues and get people thinking about whether they actually believe this crap or not. If they don't believe in it then why are they still members of the church - all it takes is one letter and one stamp.

all the stars · 23-09-2008 12:30pm

20goto10 wrote: »

I agree you should be allowed to believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind. But as far as acceptance goes, I think there should be less. everyone who comes out with a comment on the origins and meaning of life or anything at all should be subjected to scrutiny.....everyone. Christian, Muslim, scientist, atheist, mormon, scientologist etc etc.

Scientists are the only ones subjected to scrutiny and this is what makes it the truth...99.99% as there's always room for more scrutinising and quite rightly so. Faith did not send men to the moon or robots to Mars.

Take the Climate Change debate for example of what I mean. Why should we not have the same debate about religion? Religion is protected for the quite obvious reason that it is completely made up and can be blown out of the water by a 5 year old. Its been backed into a corner and its only way out is dirty tactics (I refer to Creationism and particularly teaching it to children in schools and out).

well, once again, i'm beginning to think that my point is being slightly missed.
If i win an Oscar one day- my first words will not be "i wanna thank god"... not essentially coz i dont believe in him, but more because, thats private and why should the world need to know what diety i believe in.
Religion should have less to do with everything yes, believe what you want but that don't mean you have to talk about it (for want of better words)

If everyone just chilled out about what is the right path and all that, and began embracing life and others without the veil that is shrowed in judgement that is religion - things would be so differant...

If everyone respected eachother beliefs enough to just leave it an unspoken thing - the world would be a differant place.

vote for me! i bring you love and peace

:pac:

20goto10 · 23-09-2008 12:41pm

all the stars wrote: »

well, once again, i'm beginning to think that my point is being slightly missed.
If i win an Oscar one day- my first words will not be "i wanna thank god"... not essentially coz i dont believe in him, but more because, thats private and why should the world need to know what diety i believe in.
Religion should have less to do with everything yes, believe what you want but that don't mean you have to talk about it (for want of better words)

If everyone just chilled out about what is the right path and all that, and began embracing life and others without the veil that is shrowed in judgement that is religion - things would be so differant...

If everyone respected eachother beliefs enough to just leave it an unspoken thing - the world would be a differant place.

vote for me! i bring you love and peace :pac:

Well you could say ignorance is bliss

all the stars · 23-09-2008 12:52pm

axer wrote: »

I think it is different in secondary schools since the students are older and are able to see how stupid the argument is. It is, however, a different story in primary school where the young students have a mallable brain whereby they are literally brainwashed into think this rubbish is fact without any proof.

Ok... so my primary school was also catholic school. Im still able to make up my own mind and question things.

axer wrote: »

My sister is a primary school teacher and would like to leave the catholic church like I have but then she would have a problem getting a job. I can't see how me becoming a teacher could change this.

Has she ever considered taking the step to open a non religious school (see, progressive steps..)

axer wrote: »

and how do you go about doing that? by debating with those that oppose it?

you change things by actively doing stuff... not necessarliy debate at all.

axer wrote: »

It doesn't make it right.

ok, however, the world is an unjust place. If its not this its something else.

axer wrote: »

I have left the catholic church but yet the world hasn't changed - they still effect me.

Fine. What am i supposed to say? Imagine how the native Americans felt... or the Aztecs or Inca's ... at least your alive.. Life is good ...

axer wrote: »

Maybe if more "catholics who really aren't catholics" left the church then things might change but people have this impression (because they were brainwashed as children) that you shouldn't leave the church because it would be wrong to do so. Some of my sisters could not understand why I would do such a thing, my parents were not happy (although they knew they had no say in the matter of course), even one or two of my friends thought it was silly and couldn't understand why.

The only way things will change is if more people (who are not really cathlolics) leave the catholic church. That is why it is good to debate these issues and get people thinking about whether they actually believe this crap or not. If they don't believe in it then why are they still members of the church - all it takes is one letter and one stamp.

Well, you changed something that you weren't ok with... good for you. Thats an example to follow. be proud.

Dades · 23-09-2008 12:57pm

all the stars wrote: »

If everyone just chilled out about what is the right path and all that, and began embracing life and others without the veil that is shrowed in judgement that is religion - things would be so differant...

I'm sure posters here are chilled out and embrace life as soon as they log off - I know I do.

That doesn't mean people can't voice their discontent given the opportunity. The world becomes a better place by first highlighting what needs to change. If we all just accepted our lot, we'd still be living under the Feudal System.

all the stars · 23-09-2008 1:02pm

Dades wrote: »

I'm sure posters here are chilled out and embrace life as soon as they log off - I know I do.

That doesn't mean people can't voice their discontent given the opportunity. The world becomes a better place by first highlighting what needs to change. If we all just accepted our lot, we'd still be living under the Feudal System.

this is true. im just like, if you dont like it, do something about it.... but all change needs a positive attitude, nothing gets done by just being negative,, ... im trying here... :pac:

can i at least have a gold star for Positive Mental Attitude?

brianthebard · 23-09-2008 1:04pm

pH wrote: »

And we've had this posted here before. Look around you, all our primary schools are religious, we couldn't buy a condom in this country until 1985, homosexuals are still denied basic rights, remember the Magdelene laundries (the last one closed in 1996)? I could go on.

This is not a pointless debate, to be honest I couldn't care less if they don't change their minds, when the religious are happy to accept their faith as a private matter then there'll be less point in discussing it.

Oh and Christmas ... those bloody Christians have stolen it, and are still trying to make it religious, we want it changed back to the celebration of indulgence it was always meant to be, they can pick another random day to have a church service on.

None of this has anything to do with divinity though.

20goto10 · 23-09-2008 1:13pm

pH wrote: »

Oh and Christmas ... those bloody Christians have stolen it, and are still trying to make it religious, we want it changed back to the celebration of indulgence it was always meant to be, they can pick another random day to have a church service on.

Don't you just love it when a Christian tries to criticise you for celebrating christmas....oh man I just love going to town on that one

Its correct name is Yule. And even still, an athiest can have Jesus stuff if they want, doesn't make them believe in Jesus just like having Santy stuff doesn't make them believe in Santy.

axer · 23-09-2008 2:34pm

all the stars wrote: »

Ok... so my primary school was also catholic school. Im still able to make up my own mind and question things.

Many don't however and many are pressured by the parents and society.

all the stars wrote: »

Has she ever considered taking the step to open a non religious school (see, progressive steps..)

She couldn't because she is not long qualified, she wouldn't have enough experience.

all the stars wrote: »

you change things by actively doing stuff... not necessarliy debate at all.

like?

all the stars wrote: »

ok, however, the world is an unjust place. If its not this its something else.

thats no excuse.

all the stars wrote: »

Fine. What am i supposed to say? Imagine how the native Americans felt... or the Aztecs or Inca's ... at least your alive.. Life is good ...

so just put up and shut up?

all the stars wrote: »

Well, you changed something that you weren't ok with... good for you. Thats an example to follow. be proud.

What it means now is that if and when I have kids they will be at the bottom of the list when trying to get into one of the 92% of primary schools but if things haven't changed if and when that day comes I will go all the way to the high court so that my kids don't have to listen to that crap. I have absolutely no problems with teachers teaching (and I will teach also) all about the different religions to my kids but not just one religion like its fact. I will let my children explore different religions if they so choose and will not brainwash them into thinking that one way is 100% correct.

20goto10 · 23-09-2008 2:37pm

axer wrote: »

What it means now is that if and when I have kids they will be at the bottom of the list when trying to get into one of the 92% of primary schools but if things haven't changed if and when that day comes I will go all the way to the high court so that my kids don't have to listen to that crap. I have absolutely no problems with teachers teaching (and I will teach also) all about the different religions to my kids but not just one religion like its fact. I will let my children explore different religions if they so choose and will not brainwash them into thinking that one way is 100% correct.

Amen to that

all the stars · 23-09-2008 3:08pm

axer wrote: »

Many don't however and many are pressured by the parents and society.

This is essentially not my problem. im a free thinker, dont have herd mentality. so...

axer wrote: »

She couldn't because she is not long qualified, she wouldn't have enough experience.

was only putting a POSITIVE suggestion that would perhaps solve YOUR problem of schooling...

axer wrote: »

like?

Im doing what is right for me. Do what is right for YOU and YOUR family to be happy and live the lives YOU want .... not up to me to tell YOU what is the best thing to do...

axer wrote: »

thats no excuse.

In the scale of life today for me, this, is bottom of my list. I dont feel the need to crusade for anything. IF i did - i would. Moaning without action solves nothing and just frustrates people.

axer wrote: »

so just put up and shut up?

I never, said that...once again, do what YOU think is best for YOU.

axer wrote: »

What it means now is that if and when I have kids they will be at the bottom of the list when trying to get into one of the 92% of primary schools but if things haven't changed if and when that day comes I will go all the way to the high court so that my kids don't have to listen to that crap. I have absolutely no problems with teachers teaching (and I will teach also) all about the different religions to my kids but not just one religion like its fact. I will let my children explore different religions if they so choose and will not brainwash them into thinking that one way is 100% correct.

Good... thats enabling your kids to be independant thinkers... thats excellent.

now... im all done troubleshooting...
so stop trying to put clouds in frount of my sunshine gosh darn it!!

Unknowability of divinity/"God"?

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