HCAP Range Test

hazza

Has anyone on here done the HCAP range test??
I met a few lads over the weekend who put the wind up me by saying how hard they found it. They also remarked that there was no practice shots allowed and the waiting around was hell.
I'm looking for pointers really beacause I'm due to do it on 18th October and apart from a few dry firing exercises (no nearby range) I havent a clue how best to prepare for this.

packas

hazza wrote: »

Has anyone on here done the HCAP range test??
I met a few lads over the weekend who put the wind up me by saying how hard they found it. They also remarked that there was no practice shots allowed and the waiting around was hell.
I'm looking for pointers really beacause I'm due to do it on 18th October and apart from a few dry firing exercises (no nearby range) I havent a clue how best to prepare for this.

A lot of waiting & no practice shots allowed. Sounds like a good test for deer stalking :D:D

My advice is to practice with your shooting sticks & be sure of you equipment. Make sure you're zero is as you expect it.

Also if you're not used to ranges my advice would be to:-

• Try and block out all surrounding noises/distractions. Try double plugging i.e. ear plugs followed by muffs. It will help eliminate surround noise which may distract you.
  
• Always double check that you're about to shoot your own target. You'd be amazed how many end up putting holes in someone elses target

DR6.5

I did the range test a couple of years ago and found it alright, the majority of the people who have failed the HCAP failed on the multiple choice questions not the range test. Practise the required shooting format at the required distances to familiarise with what is required on the day.
One thing to look out for when you are doing the range test is to make sure that you are aiming at your target, a lot of guys were shooting the wrong target which meant that they had to wait to shoot again in the afternoon. Also you cant line in your rifle on the day so make sure it is lined in.

A lot of guys will tell you that it is hard, I had not shot on a range before the HCAP and didnt find it too bad.

Good luck with the range test.

hazza

Thanks for the replies lads.

"A lot of waiting & no practive shots allowed. Sounds like a good test for deer stalking " Didnt realise how funny this was until you spotted the obvious

Thats a good one about making sure to shoot at your own target:D.... easy to slip up in the noise and excitement on the day I'd say.

Any thanks again lads I'm off for some practice on the sticks.

Sika_Stalker

just another little pointer
if you have a varible scope keep the mag down low at the closer ranges as it will make the shooting a bit more stable.

hazza

Cheers for that Sika, but I have a fixed scope an 8x56. Which is good for low light so I'm told but it does tend to exaggerate my wobble on the aim.

One other thing how did you find kneeling/sitting and would you recommend a set sticks for that as well?

Sika_Stalker

if you go to woodies or any other garden centre
they sell green aluminium sticks with a plastic coating buy 3 of them and use a strong rubber band to keep them together
you can move the band down for the kneeling and then back up for the standing

hazza

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

if you go to woodies or any other garden centre
they sell green aluminium sticks with a plastic coating buy 3 of them and use a strong rubber band to keep them together
you can move the band down for the kneeling and then back up for the shooting

Genius - thats neat. And I know the canes youre talking about they have them in 4home near us. Will get a set on the way home.
Thanks Sika

It wasn't me!

I didn't know you could use a rest, thought it was offhand. To be fair though, a deer kill zone sized target at 100 yards is doable offhand, with practice; difficult but definitely doable.

Sika_Stalker

you can use any tool you would use when your out hunting
from a rucksack to a bi-pod at 100m and shooting sticks at 60m and 40m
also when your shooting at 100metres bring a mat that you can lie down on

Sparks

The shooting test isn't the hard part, according to those who run the HCAP - most of their fails are on knowlege of what's in the manual, not the actual shooting. The shooting test itself consists of a grouping test at 100m prone, you have to put 3 shots in a 100mm group; then there are 6 shots at a paper deer target, 2 from 100m prone, 2 from 60m kneeling, 2 from 40m standing, all must hit in the kill area.

kerryman12

I got a set of shooting stick following advise from the father in law. Initially I didnt use them but I have to say now that I find them great - a great shooting aid and a helpfull walking tool, especially in steep glens.

Regards

J. Ramone

From rimfire practice at home before the range test, I thought I wouldn't need sticks, however be prepared for wind gusts on the open expanse of the range. I failed the first attempt as I found the final standing shot impossible with the conditions on the day. It was a lesson that cost me 50 quid. This is the additional fee for the afternoon if you do not pass in the morning.

Traumadoc

Dont forget some sort of shooting mat, for the prone shooting.

jwshooter

J. Ramone wrote: »

From rimfire practice at home before the range test, I thought I wouldn't need sticks, however be prepared for wind gusts on the open expanse of the range. I failed the first attempt as I found the final standing shot impossible with the conditions on the day. It was a lesson that cost me 50 quid. This is the additional fee for the afternoon if you do not pass in the morning.

on the range in the midlands wind is going to be your big problem .and you have to take the shot ,as in hunting if im not steady i do not shoot .rested shots on the day for me were not a problem, the wind on the standing is the only shot that could do you .there is a nack it shooting standing shots i dont use sticks when stalking ,but shoot off hand at times .but use a set of three sticks on your day start off under your target bring the rifle slowly straight up through the target just under the kill point touch off the trigger and you will hit at mark above as the gun will move into it by the time everything happens .this works very but work on it

meathstevie

One thins I've experienced myself shooting foxes from a standing position is using your rifle sling to stabilise the rifle. Just "wrap" the sling around your supporting arm to pull the lot nice and thight in your shoulder. The difference between doing this and a normal "hand and arm" only hold is unreal.

This link offers a bit of an explanation on the idea
http://hunting.about.com/cs/holsterinfo/a/aa_slings.htm

Sikamick

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

if you go to woodies or any other garden centre
they sell green aluminium sticks with a plastic coating buy 3 of them and use a strong rubber band to keep them together
you can move the band down for the kneeling and then back up for the standing

_________________________________________________________________

Sika_Stalker's suggestion re the aluminum sticks; they are an excellent shooting aid.

With heavy growth on the mountain it isn't always easy to get a good natural rest, these sticks make a very stable shooting platform.

As for the HCAP deer management course I find it over priced and not up to the same standard as the one the Irish Deer Society use to run.

By supporting the HCAP we are leading ourselves into a situation where you will have to have the HCAP Course done to be able to deer stalk in the future (my opinion).

HCAP is primarily for Coillte lettings and should not be allowed to become the National Deer Stalking Course.

Recognition of other deerstalking Certified courses is essential for visitors to this country and for Irish deerstalkers that shoot open private farm land.

All the above is only my opinion and I would like to know how other deerstalkers feel about this.

Sikamick

Grizzly 45

As for the HCAP deer management course I find it over priced and not up to the same standard as the one the Irish Deer Society use to run.

By supporting the HCAP we are leading ourselves into a situation where you will have to have the HCAP Course done to be able to deer stalk in the future (my opinion).

HCAP is primarily for Coillte lettings and should not be allowed to become the National Deer Stalking Course.

Recognition of other deerstalking Certified courses is essential for visitors to this country and for Irish deerstalkers that shoot open private farm land.

All the above is only my opinion and I would like to know how other deerstalkers feel about this.

Sikamick

1+ Sikamick!
I have some very grave reservations about HCAP as an organisation and the course.Especially since according to the ISD article of Sept,that they want to push this course to cumpolsory for ALL stalkers by 2010!!!

1] Why wont it accept any other EU hunting liscenses??Which can be 100% more detailed thantheir course.I hate to say this but any EU hunter would be more qualified in all aspects of hunting than most of us here.
Have they not heard of the EU free interchange/compatability of documents????

2]Why has it got numerous bits and pieces from the German hunting course in it,that have little or no revelance to Irish shooting?If they are nicking pieces from other courses,why not accept then that EU liscenses /courses are just as valid ?
3] As a NGO who is it accountable to??Who sets the prices[increased in the last two years?].If I have a dispute with them on the course who does one appeal to??
4] Are they data protection act registered?
5]Why is this course set so high on theory pass 80%.The world std is 75%
6]Could they please explain why APPRENTLY on the first run,somthing like 75% of people failed on the theory test with a EXACT 30% fail mark???

Until this organisation becomes alot clearer and open and explains some points,I would run away from them.

hazza

I am really grateful for all your advice lads, many thanks.
Sikamick and Grizzly I'm not informed enough to answer your reservations regarding HCAP but I'm sure others here more experienced than I can comment.

However as a newcomer I took what was available, to help me up a pretty steep learning curve.

Vegeta

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

1+ Sikamick!
I have some very grave reservations about HCAP as an organisation and the course.Especially since according to the ISD article of Sept,that they want to push this course to cumpolsory for ALL stalkers by 2010!!!

Just to play Devils advocate here as I agree there should be choice in every market place. Again I agree there should be more options available to the budding deer stalkers.

Who is "they" in the above, I haven't read the issue of ISD, the people who run the HCAP, Coillte, the Irish Deer Society, NPWS?

1] Why wont it accept any other EU hunting liscenses??Which can be 100% more detailed thantheir course.I hate to say this but any EU hunter would be more qualified in all aspects of hunting than most of us here.
Have they not heard of the EU free interchange/compatability of documents????

It was my understanding that to hunt Coillte lands you need to complete the HCAP. SO its hardly fair on the HCAP people to say Coillte wont accept anything other than a HCAP. That's a Coillte policy after all

2]Why has it got numerous bits and pieces from the German hunting course in it,that have little or no revelance to Irish shooting?If they are nicking pieces from other courses,why not accept then that EU liscenses /courses are just as valid ?

Again I don't see the sense in this, surely its Coillte who should be accepting the European licenses.

Are you suggesting one should be given a HCAP because they have a European hunting license or that Coillte should accept European licenses to hunt on their land?

3] As a NGO who is it accountable to??Who sets the prices[increased in the last two years?].If I have a dispute with them on the course who does one appeal to??
4] Are they data protection act registered?

Don't have much to say here on these points

5]Why is this course set so high on theory pass 80%.The world std is 75%
6]Could they please explain why APPRENTLY on the first run,somthing like 75% of people failed on the theory test with a EXACT 30% fail mark???

Again I don't have much to say here

Until this organisation becomes alot clearer and open and explains some points,I would run away from them.

Finally as I said already I agree there should be more choice for shooters.

Does anyone have issue with the actual course content. Does it cover too much, too little etc etc

Is the practical too easy, hard?

jwshooter

coillte will accept the english DMQ level one ,from any one in the world other than a irish man .i have the DMQ level one and two done ,but coillte will not recongnize it.but my scotish friend that done the same course as me on the same week and it was a week ,they will accept his .the hcap was a good idea gone bad ..where is all the money going and how much do these guys get paid .i was waiting a year on my cert .

Sikamick

From Deer Alliance website.

For residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer on Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their tender.

All persons (licensees and nominated hunters) applying for a deer hunting permit for Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2010 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their application for such permits.

For non- residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All non-Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer, or applying for a deer stalking permit on Coillte lands, on or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed the Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme or a similar, approved, certified hunting competence assessment and provide evidence of this when making their application for such a licence or permit.


Sikamick

jwshooter

Sikamick wrote: »

From Deer Alliance website.

For residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer on Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their tender.

All persons (licensees and nominated hunters) applying for a deer hunting permit for Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2010 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their application for such permits.

For non- residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All non-Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer, or applying for a deer stalking permit on Coillte lands, on or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed the Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme or a similar, approved, certified hunting competence assessment and provide evidence of this when making their application for such a licence or permit.


Sikamick

Is that legal to accept there DMQ s and not mine ? .i spent time and money to do there courses

meathstevie

The Irish hunting scene could do with continental style licencing requirements. The Germans, French, Dutch, Belgians and probably a few more I don't know about all have a system in place that links a hunting licence to a very thorough theoretical and practical exam system that deals with legislation, firearms knowledge and maintenance, conservation and habitats, safety etc etc.. . I know it's a serious pain in the backside jumping the hoops and cramming the knowledge but in the long run it leads to more knowledgeable hunters which means better hunters.

An added benefit is that in most of these countries your firearms licence and hunting licence are one and the same. You don't need a seperate firearms licence for every gun or change of guns. Once you have your hunting licence you can freely buy and trade in hunting arms on the condition that you register all changes with the local police or townhall.

Grizzly 45

Trouble is MS,who is going to do a four year theoretical,practical and oral assesment with inbuilt work for all of the above and then pay appx 20/25 K Euros to get a reserve and place in a consortium?The Continent is a different story to Ireland.I am not saying that there shouldn't be a liscense system here.
But what has my dander up is [1] the non accountability of this organisation.[2] The irrevelance of certain materials on this course that seems to be there to "beef up" this whole thing,which could be done almost in a 48 hour intensive course[3] The Money spin here.£5 Euros for a book,100 Euros for a written test,part 1 another 100 euros for the practical side.The practical /or theoritical test has a "sell by date" on it.[Like most gyps here in Ireland].
All in all,I cant see why this course cant concentrate more on the shooting side of the course,which is more important IMO.

rrpc

jwshooter wrote: »

Is that legal to accept there DMQ s and not mine ? .i spent time and money to do there courses

Why did you do that course? if it was to hunt in Scotland then you obviously felt it was worth the effort and expense. Consequently you can't expect to suddenly take advantage of it here when that was never your intention in the first place.

From Coillte's point of view, they would expect a very small number of foreign registered shooters to be getting deer rights here and as such would feel that there would be very little overhead relatively speaking in adminstering the system for non-Irish shooters. If Irish shooters were to be afforded the same leeway, the overhead in checking their qualifications abroad would be much higher.

And why not have a local system in place? If you say every other country has one, then why should we be piggybacking on theirs? It would also mean a much higher cost per entrant for Irish shooters who did not have a foreign competency if the numbers were reduced by those with foreign qualifications.

Just another way of looking at it.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[1] the non accountability of this organisation.

In what way are they non-accountable? The HCAP is run by the Deer Alliance which is in turn made up of the Irish Deer Society, The Wild Deer Association of Ireland, The Wicklow Deer Management and Conservation Group and the Wicklow Deer Society. All of these have memberships that they are accountable to.

[2] The irrevelance of certain materials on this course that seems to be there to "beef up" this whole thing,which could be done almost in a 48 hour intensive course

There are other courses that run for longer and have more 'padding'. Are they not equally as bad?

[3] The Money spin here.£5 Euros for a book,100 Euros for a written test,part 1 another 100 euros for the practical side.The practical /or theoritical test has a "sell by date" on it.[Like most gyps here in Ireland].

€5 for any book is cheap. When was the last time you were in a book shop? As for the course fees, you have to appreciate that a venue has to be paid for (including the range), the tutors have to be paid and the money goes back into the sport anyway.

All in all,I cant see why this course cant concentrate more on the shooting side of the course,which is more important IMO.

I'd certainly agree with that. A little more on firearms safety wouldn't go amiss either. We've had people turn up at our range to set their sights with rifles that had full mags and one up the spout. Needless to say their feet didn't touch the ground on the way out the door.

Sikamick

The book is 32 euro plus postage.

Note below it was Coillte that pushed for this, it was not as the results of the deer groups coming together. The Irish Deer Society had a perfectly acceptable course which was even accepted in the UK and still is to this day.

________________________________________________________________

The Deer Alliance was formed in 2003 in response to Coillte Teoranta’s decision to seek a system of independent certification for persons hunting wild deer on Coillte forest property. The Alliance comprises the four leading Irish deer organisations – The Irish Deer Society, The Wild Deer Association of Ireland, Wicklow Deer Management & Conservation Group and the Wicklow Deer Society. These four organisations accepted the challenge to come up with a formula for a credible and independent assessment and certification model early in 2003. There followed almost a year of comparative study and assessment of different models used nationally and internationally, culminating in the decision to adopt the system of assessment now represented by the Hunter Competence Assessment Programme – or HCAP.

Sikamick

Sparks

Sikamick, we're way off topic here, so I'm moving all the representation posts over to their own thread so that the HCAP discussion can continue in here.

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

Sicamick, we're way off topic here, so I'm moving all the representation posts over to their own thread so that the HCAP discussion can continue in here.

___________________________________________________________________


Off track a bit but

Sparks in respect the name is Sikamick not Sicamick, I am sure a lot of people are sic a mick but I'm not going away until the truth comes out and our club gets Justice


Sikamick

Grizzly 45

[

quote=rrpc;57353144]In what way are they non-accountable? The HCAP is run by the Deer Alliance which is in turn made up of the Irish Deer Society, The Wild Deer Association of Ireland, The Wicklow Deer Management and Conservation Group and the Wicklow Deer Society. All of these have memberships that they are accountable to.

Are any of these groups Govt appointed bodies?Have they signed up to Data protection or freedom of information acts?Reason I am asking this ;is it is somtimes the only way to get information out of Govt bodies,and this is somtimes a neat way of avoiding having to answer awkward questions around here.

There are other courses that run for longer and have more 'padding'. Are they not equally as bad?

Indeed,there is around here in Ireland.And you have to ask WHY?? Cut out the BS and just do a course revelant to the matter in hand and stop wasting peoples time and money.Get this entire course streamlined into 48/72 hours or a weekend from start to finish.Not a dragged out procedure,wher if you dont do this within 6 months you have to resit the theory.That smells of money spinning,and bad organisation on the course.

€5 for any book is cheap.

Typo error on my part:o

As for the course fees, you have to appreciate that a venue has to be paid for (including the range), the tutors have to be paid and the money goes back into the sport anyway.

How much exactly does go into the sport???How much do the examiners get paid??How much is the range rental??

I'd certainly agree with that. A little more on firearms safety wouldn't go amiss either. We've had people turn up at our range to set their sights with rifles that had full mags and one up the spout. Needless to say their feet didn't touch the ground on the way out the door.

[/QUOTE]
Apart from blatant stupidity,which one really cant do much about!:rolleyes:
was thinking more along the lines of the US NRA hunter saftey course,which is a 24 hour course from start to finish and a walk through course with targets set up for shoot/no shoot etc.A bit more practical on the saftey,and less of the theory.