HCAP Range Test

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

Sparks in respect the name is Sikamick not Sicamick

Sorry, typo. Corrected now.

Sika_Stalker

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[

Apart from blatant stupidity,which one really cant do much about!:rolleyes:
was thinking more along the lines of the US NRA hunter saftey course,which is a 24 hour course from start to finish and a walk through course with targets set up for shoot/no shoot etc.A bit more practical on the saftey,and less of the theory.

There still is a safty aspect to the HCAP albit not as much as the US NRA, but after you have finished the range test you are taken into a room and showen pictures or of deer and asked would you shoot at this animal and asked to explain why, Your also asked to remove a gun from a case and make it safe and hand it to the examiner.
OK it might not be as comprehensive as others but for what we do in ireland it adequate

Sikamick

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

There still is a safty aspect to the HCAP albit not as much as the US NRA, but after you have finished the range test you are taken into a room and showen pictures or of deer and asked would you shoot at this animal and asked to explain why, Your also asked to remove a gun from a case and make it safe and hand it to the examiner.
OK it might not be as comprehensive as others but for what we do in ireland it adequate

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HCAP Deer Management Course

Sika_Stalker - Do they show you how to Gut/clean out a dead deer with a vet present who will explain how to look for disease in the deer.

If you look at the Irish Deer Society Syllabus it is much more detailed.

Unfortunately The Irish Deer Society don't run their course any more as far as I know, mainly because of Coillte insistence on the HCAP.


Sikamick

Jonty

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

Your also asked to remove a gun from a case and make it safe and hand it to the examiner.

Surely they don't advocate storing a rifle with its bolt and magazine??????

Vegeta

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Indeed,there is around here in Ireland.And you have to ask WHY?? Cut out the BS and just do a course revelant to the matter in hand and stop wasting peoples time and money.Get this entire course streamlined into 48/72 hours or a weekend from start to finish.

That would be a right laugh actually, going away for a weekend to do it. Only thing is that it might make it more expensive if you have to stay overnight in a different county and buy food for 2 days AND your instructors might have to sacrifice a night of their own time which they would have to be paid for. Cant see that being cheaper. Definitely more time efficient though

Also there needs to be a written exam, other wise you could just sit in lectures with your brain off for 2 days and still get a cert saying you are a knowledgeable chap on deer when you've learned nothing.

Grizzly 45

Vegeta wrote: »

That would be a right laugh actually, going away for a weekend to do it. Only thing is that it might make it more expensive if you have to stay overnight in a different county and buy food for 2 days AND your instructors might have to sacrifice a night of their own time which they would have to be paid for. Cant see that being cheaper. Definitely more time efficient though

Also there needs to be a written exam, other wise you could just sit in lectures with your brain off for 2 days and still get a cert saying you are a knowledgeable chap on deer when you've learned nothing.

Dunno Veg,
I mean I did two round trips to Midlands on two consecutive mornings/PMs to do my IPSA liscense.Could have stayed over,but then again,is it within the wit of mere men to do 3 courses per annum in each province of Ireland,with a range day in a local range??It is not as if we are a really vast country either.
On learning and exams.Realistically how much do you remember and use of ,say your leaving cert in day to day life??Not very much if anything.Will you remember in six weeks time the name of the digestive process of Dama Dama for example???This is what I mean by padding.Very good knowledge to a zooologist say,but does it really hep you as a hunter to be able to explain the mating cycle of the warble fly larve and how it infects deer??Good to know,but what are you ?A vet?
You become a deer hunter,shooter pilot,and fisherman or whatever,y going out and doing.Bookwork and theory is fine,but it does not beat hands on experiance.So how long will all this knowledge stay with you 4/6 weeks?Now you are back to the real world with a load of academic that cost you time and money knowledge,and great difficulty IMO of using it in a practical sense.

Sparks

Bookwork and theory is fine,but it does not beat hands on experiance.

I'd have to call bullcrap on that one. The one thing I've seen consistently over all the years of teaching newbies to shoot in DURC and WTSC is that if you want them to learn something, you teach it to them *off* the range, not on it. Otherwise they get all tangled up in trying to simultaenously learn and do. And that's true of everything else as well - just look at flying (since you mentioned it). You do not learn to fly in a plane, you learn to fly in a classroom on the ground. That's where you learn about weather and radio procedure and stall recovery and engine management and flight planning and fuel flow and all the myriad things you need to know to fly the aircraft. The actual physical skill of piloting is only a part of it, and if you think it's the only part that matters, you'll be dead inside of a year. In cases of pilot error, the pilots don't crash because of a lack of skill at pointing an aircraft, they crash because of the stuff you learn in a classroom on the ground not being well known enough.

Grizzly 45

[

just look at flying (since you mentioned it). You do not learn to fly in a plane, you learn to fly in a classroom on the ground. That's where you learn about weather and radio procedure and stall recovery and engine management and flight planning and fuel flow and all the myriad things you need to know to fly the aircraft. The actual physical skill of piloting is only a part of it, and if you think it's the only part that matters, you'll be dead inside of a year. In cases of pilot error, the pilots don't crash because of a lack of skill at pointing an aircraft, they crash because of the stuff you learn in a classroom on the ground not being well known enough.

[/QUOTE]

Errrr...NO Sparks! As somone who went thru the US FAA pilots courses frm zero hours to Commerical[or would have if the school hadnt gone bankrupt]. We did the following;4hours of theory,and then f4 hours of flight instruction per day six days per week.Reason,It is easier to remember the THEORY when you put it into PRACTISE within a 24 hour period.[This is going by numerous psyhologists,educators,etc of the USAF,Army etc].Sitting on the ground as I had to for 4weeks just learing it in a classroom and not putting it into practise,was very detrimental to my progress,as learning and not doing made no sense.And actually there is a LOT of things in flying you cannot learn sitting in a classroom or simulator,or know you can handle unless you are actually in a plane.Like engine out,spin recovery,flying under the hood,etc.
Pilot error,a my instructor said[ex WCO RAF].Is people not dealing with the little things and letting them become fatal.
Anyway,if you cant teach somne to shoot on a range,after explaining it to them,I would say there is somthing wrong somwhere.

jwshooter

rrpc wrote: »

Why did you do that course? if it was to hunt in Scotland then you obviously felt it was worth the effort and expense. Consequently you can't expect to suddenly take advantage of it here when that was never your intention in the first place.

From Coillte's point of view, they would expect a very small number of foreign registered shooters to be getting deer rights here and as such would feel that there would be very little overhead relatively speaking in adminstering the system for non-Irish shooters. If Irish shooters were to be afforded the same leeway, the overhead in checking their qualifications abroad would be much higher.

And why not have a local system in place? If you say every other country has one, then why should we be piggybacking on theirs? It would also mean a much higher cost per entrant for Irish shooters who did not have a foreign competency if the numbers were reduced by those with foreign qualifications.

Just another way of looking at it.

presumition is the mother of all **** ups ,you presume i done the course in scotland to hunt in scotland . i done the DMQ in wicklow about 10 years ago. with my scotish game keeper stalker friend also three npws randers done it with me two high up rangers , coillte were there to, also there was a top man in the IDS there ,wicklow deer group were also there among others ..the talk was this course was going to be the irish standard course back then.your imformation is wrong .any one in the world can take on a coillte lease also there is a lot of out of state stalkers hunting in ireland .i will spend oct taking some of them hunting,...the uk and european stalkers are far better trained than us .the DMQ is a weeks course not 50 questions in 10 minutes and looking at 3 pictures of deer on a laptop what a joke my mother could pass the range test .also have you done the hcap or DMQ and what did you think or learn from it ,after its knowledge we are looking for not opinions

rrpc

jwshooter wrote: »

prosumition is the mother of all **** ups ,

You are so right jw. I said if you did it. No presumption on my part.

jwshooter

rrpc wrote: »

You are so right jw. I said if you did it. No presumption on my part.

to hunt in scotland, end quote ,you never answered my question , have you done the hcap or DMQ and did you learn any thing from them .

Sikamick

Quote rrpc: And why not have a local system in place.

In respect we did have one , the only one for years when no one else was running a DMQ here in Ireland, it was run by the Irish Deer Society, the first group here to set one up, it was recognized by Coillte and Duchas at the time.

And I am sure it was the Irish Deer Society that pushed for more humane Calibers for deer hunting.

And we would still have it, had the The Irish Deer Society not bent to the whims of certain people within Coillte(My opinion).

The Certificates that people got through the IDS Course are not worth the paper they are written on, here in Ireland.
Sikamick

jwshooter

Sikamick wrote: »

Quote rrpc: And why not have a local system in place.

In respect we did have one , the only one for years when no one else was running a DMQ here in Ireland, it was run by the Irish Deer Society, the first group here to set one up, it was recognized by Coillte and Duchas at the time.

And I am sure it was the Irish Deer Society that pushed for more humane Calibers for deer hunting.

And we would still have it, had the The Irish Deer Society not bent to the whims of certain people within Coillte.

Sikamick

sika time for bed , but like most things in ireland there is more than one deer society in ireland get them to agree ya wright ,the problem with the one you are talking about is the ones giving the coures have no training we have to look at europe and follow there mark

rrpc

jwshooter wrote: »

to hunt in scotland, end quote ,you never answered my question , have you done the hcap or DMQ and did you learn any thing from them .

To be honest jw, I didn't see a question in your post.

Having read through it again, twice. I eventually found the question. A question mark would have helped!

I haven't sat the hcap because I don't shoot deer. I did sit through a presentation on it at the FCP conference and had a flick through of the manual as well.

That doesn't make me an expert, but it doesn't mean I can't ask questions of those complaining about it either.

On a more general note and this is really where I'm coming from: Would it not be better to direct your questions/gripes to the Deer Alliance or one of it's constituent bodies? I'm sure they'd be happy to take any suggestions on board. From what I remember of the presentation they will be revising the manual some time in the future.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

On a more general note and this is really where I'm coming from: Would it not be better to direct your questions/gripes to the Deer Alliance or one of it's constituent bodies? I'm sure they'd be happy to take any suggestions on board. From what I remember of the presentation they will be revising the manual some time in the future.

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rrpc, one question that was put to them (Coillte) was would they recognize other established Deer Management courses, two to be specific, The Irish Deer Society and the UK DMQ 1 & 2, much more comprehensive courses and long established.

You have seen what jwshooter has said about his certification from UK DMQ, if your an Irish Citizen they wont and this also applies to the IDS course.

The Certificates that people got through the IDS Course is not worth the paper they are written on.


From Deer Alliance website.

For residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer on Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their tender.

All persons (licensees and nominated hunters) applying for a deer hunting permit for Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2010 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their application for such permits.

For non- residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All non-Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer, or applying for a deer stalking permit on Coillte lands, on or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed the Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme or a similar, approved, certified hunting competence assessment and provide evidence of this when making their application for such a licence or permit.(This could not be deemed to be a fair way to treat Irish Stalkers.

Maybe this is a case that should be put be put before JSI.



Sikamick

Sikamick

jwshooter would you be kind enough to explain what the DMQ 1 and specifically
DMQ 2 involves.




Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

___________________________________________________________________

rrpc, one question that was put to them (Coillte) was would they recognize other established Deer Management courses, two to be specific, The Irish Deer Society and the UK DMQ 1 & 2, much more comprehensive courses and long established.

First of all the Irish Deer Society has signed up to the HCAP, so whatever about the status or effectiveness of any previous course they may have run they obviously have dropped it in favour of the HCAP.

You have seen what jwshooter has said about his certification from UK DMQ, if your an Irish Citizen they wont and this also applies to the IDS course.

The Certificates that people got through the IDS Course is not worth the paper they are written on.

These queries should be best directed to the Deer Alliance, I have already suggested some reasons why the situation is as it is with regard to foreign qualificatons. Here are some more that come to mind:

• Overall numbers aren't that high, so allowing a number of courses will impact on all of them and make them more expensive.
• A single standard is easier to control and police thus keeping costs down.
• Coillte are a semi-state body; they have the right to make the rules where their lands are involved.
• Four different deer stalking and conservation bodies were involved in the HCAP, that's a pretty democratic situation. (up until I was at that presentation I hadn't realised there were so many )
• Obviously recognition had to be given to external courses to allow for tourist shooting which impacts our economy. Allowing for recognition of those qualifications for Irish shooters would confuse matters and adversely impact the courses run here.
• Tourist shooting by its nature is seasonal, short term and transient. Whatever the numbers,they would not be as high on an ongoing basis as local shooting.
• We have single standards for many different areas: Driving tests, weights and measures and teaching to name but a few. We have now also got a standard for sports coaching administered by the NCTC, so a single standard to shoot deer on state lands is hardly surprising.

For non- residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All non-Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer, or applying for a deer stalking permit on Coillte lands, on or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed the Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme or a similar, approved, certified hunting competence assessment and provide evidence of this when making their application for such a licence or permit.(This could not be deemed to be a fair way to treat Irish Stalkers.

That depends entirely on your point of view. If you are one of the people who has taken an external course, obviously you will feel hard done by. On the other hand if you have to take a course for the first time, you would probably prefer to do it here. For someone who has complained bitterly about rules being broken and who has advocated a very strict regime of rule enforcement, you don't appear to be very consistent.

Grizzly 45

And then isnt this where this falls down?
If HCAP /Coilte is saying they will accept a simmilar approved course and evidence thereof;Why then wont they accept the UK DMQ???

Methinks,simmilar means in their books "Irish run course"
Of which there is none other as HCAP/Coilte have created a monopoly situation.Coilte only accepts HCAP.HCAP is the only one allowed to teach the course.Very naughty under EU law BTW!

On that point,our firearms/hunting liscensing system is accepted around the EU,[considerd by most as a bit of a joke].Yet if an Irish shooter is able to hunt as a guest of a European hunter in State forests around Europe,without any need of further qualifications.Can we not extend the same courtsey?

Also, it is the height of discrimination IMO to say that if Pat Murphy went to a European country,for what ever reason ,and did their hunting course/liscense which anywhere is 1000% more difficult than here,that Coilte/Hcap wont accept it because he is an Irish national???

Well and good if Coilte/HCAP want to keep this money spinner to themselves and mug those who want this.
BUT I DO resent then the fact that HCAP is now eyeing up everyone who deer hunts for this monopolistic,no accountability to anyone,IMO gyp of a course.Do what you want on your own lands Coilte,but not all of Ireland,it's forrests or it's deer belong to Coilte!

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And then isnt this where this falls down?
If HCAP /Coilte is saying they will accept a simmilar approved course and evidence thereof;Why then wont they accept the UK DMQ???

They will, from UK hunters only. It's pretty similar to a UK citizen being allowed to drive here on their UK licence until they move here and are then required to get the Irish driving licence, or a UK driver being allowed to drive here on their UK plates, but when they become resident are required to rereg their car to the Irish system. It's vice versa in the UK as well.

Methinks,simmilar means in their books "Irish run course"
Of which there is none other as HCAP/Coilte have created a monopoly situation.Coilte only accepts HCAP.HCAP is the only one allowed to teach the course.Very naughty under EU law BTW!

It's actually only the latter case that is uncomeptitve. The ECDL is a case in point, you have to do a course as an instructor and as an instructor centre to give the course, but then anyone can give it. Are you sure that anybody else actually wants to give the HCAP course other than HCAP themselves?

On that point,our firearms/hunting liscensing system is accepted around the EU,[considerd by most as a bit of a joke].Yet if an Irish shooter is able to hunt as a guest of a European hunter in State forests around Europe,without any need of further qualifications.Can we not extend the same courtsey?

Actually our licence is not accepted in the rest of Europe, in fact that whole area is a mess because the EFP is supposed to be the standard and different countries have different attitudes to it (us included). So in Italy, all you need is your EFP, in Ireland you needthe EFP and an Irish licence, in the UK you may or may not need the EFP (they're ambivalent about it) but you do need a permit from the local constabulary to shoot in their district. Finally we are accepting foreign qualifications for deer hunting, just not from Irish residents.

Also, it is the height of discrimination IMO to say that if Pat Murphy went to a European country,for what ever reason ,and did their hunting course/liscense which anywhere is 1000% more difficult than here,that Coilte/Hcap wont accept it because he is an Irish national???

See above about driving licences.

Well and good if Coilte/HCAP want to keep this money spinner to themselves and mug those who want this.
BUT I DO resent then the fact that HCAP is now eyeing up everyone who deer hunts for this monopolistic,no accountability to anyone,IMO gyp of a course.Do what you want on your own lands Coilte,but not all of Ireland,it's forrests or it's deer belong to Coilte!

But that's not Coillte's initiative and therefore they can't be blamed for a possible requirement in other areas for the HCAP. IMO this will be a licensing issue and the requirement will be for those seeking a deer hunting permit and therefore a full bore licence for deer hunting to have done a suitable course. The HCAP being state approved would seem to be an obvious choice.

I'm being devils advocate here Grizzly, I don't see the point of having a myriad of courses floating around giving any fly by night merchant the right to cash in on a requirement to have done a course with an inevitable fall off in standards.

Sure if the HCAP is not good enough, then put in a proposal to the Deer Alliance to have it improved. As I said earlier, I believe it's constantly under review.

There are a great many courses out there, quite a few in shooting related disciplines that are run on a correspondence basis which to my mind is a recipe for disaster. There's no real attempt to ensure that people have to be rigorously tested before they get a qualification and standards will inevitably drop. It's a bit like the spam you get in your inbox offering you degrees for money!

Where courses are concerned, I'm always more impressed by fail rates than pass rates because that means its not being done for purely monetary reasons.

rrpc

On earlier comments about costs and where the money is going, the following which is online at http://deeralliance.blogspot.com/ might help cast some light.

The Deer Alliance came into being in 2001, in response to Coillte Teoranta’s imminent requirement for independent hunter competence assessment (see previous postings). Between 2001 and 2004 the Deer Alliance Development Committee, comprised of representatives of participating bodies, examined alternative hunter training and competence assessment models including those previously available in Ireland and Britain, together with other European and international models. During this period all expenses were met individually by the participating organisations and/or nominated representatives themselves.

The Hunter Competence Assessment Programme 2005 – 2010 (HCAP) launched in 2005 after four years of deliberations and which included publication of the Deer Alliance Stalker Training Manual, remains a voluntary non-profitmaking exercise, with direct expenses funded by revenues from assessment fees and Manual sales. The initial cost of producing the Manual, which was substantial, was funded from grant aid received from Coillte Teoranta, National Parks & Wildlife Service, Forest Service (Department of Agriculture) and the participating deer organisations.

Ongoing costs include secretarial and administrative costs, contribution to expenses incurred by volunteers assisting in HCAP MCQs and Range Tests, and promotional costs. Revenues are in general managed to achieve at best a break-even situation, with any surpluses arising from income over expenditure going towards general promotion of the HCAP project. Accounts are currently audited by Michael Ryan & Associates, Chartered Secretary & Accountants, Rathdrum, Co. Wicklow, to whom the Deer Alliance HCAP Assessment Committee is indebted for attention to services required.

There's more, including accounts for the previous three to four years, so you can see where your money is going.

meathstevie

You don't need to change your driving licence when taking up residence in another EU country. That's the whole point of having EU-wide recognisable and accepted categories of driving licencenses.

To pick up on Grizzly's point : the unlimited aspect of your firearms cert is accepted in other EU countries as a licence to hunt. That's the difference, you can have a million firearms permits in let's say Germany but it still doesn't allow you to hunt. You need a hunting licence and qualification in order to do that. What the exact requirements are to bring your actual firearm with you is a different story.

I don't want to be ruffling feathers in here lads and I don't want to offend anyone involved in the HCAP setup but someone who's passed the German and for example Dutch and Belgian hunting licence exams could probably teach the course. As a consequence I find it rather unbelievable that Coilte wouldn't accept for example Johnny Murphy's German hunting qualification who's lived in Munich for 25 years and came back to Ireland only two years ago.

Sparks

meathstevie wrote: »

You don't need to change your driving licence when taking up residence in another EU country. That's the whole point of having EU-wide recognisable and accepted categories of driving licencenses.

This is pretty much exactly what we were talking about a few months ago when we were talking about mandatory training for competency when you went for your licence. We mentioned the ISO17024 standard. It was written to solve precisely this problem. You just decide on the syllabus, then the standard lets anyone who wants to, run a course that gives an accredited result at the end of the day. Standards are maintained, monopolies become impossible, and a third party ensures that anyone with the bit of paper at the end of the day knows the same as anyone else with the bit of paper. And since it's an international standard, you can ship it abroad easily.

If you wanted to, you could register the HCAP under that standard, and then anyone who wanted to could run the course, whether commercially, privately, for a club, or what have you.

Sikamick

Quote:Sikamick

For non- residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All non-Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer, or applying for a deer stalking permit on Coillte lands, on or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed the Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme or a similar, approved, certified hunting competence assessment and provide evidence of this when making their application for such a licence or permit.(This could not be deemed to be a fair or demoncratic way to treat Irish Stalkers.

_________________________________________________________________

Quote rrpc: That depends entirely on your point of view. If you are one of the people who has taken an external course, obviously you will feel hard done by. The Irish Deer Society Course was not External.

For someone who has complained bitterly about rules being broken and who has advocated a very strict regime of rule enforcement, you don't appear to be very consistent. rrpc Please explain what this supposed to mean.


Maintaining rules and standards is totally different to monopolizing something.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

The Irish Deer Society Course was not External.

External to the HCAP and in any event the IDS are part of HCAP or did you forget to quote where I said that as well?

For someone who has complained bitterly about rules being broken and who has advocated a very strict regime of rule enforcement, you don't appear to be very consistent. rrpc Please explain what this supposed to mean.

You've been complaining here that there is no-one to take a case to when you have a difficulty yet where there's a clear point of contact to a group that has taken transparency to the level of publishing their accounts on the internet you take up a gripe here on boards.

Without demonstrably having taken it up with them first. I say demonstrably because you haven't said whether you've spoken to anyone other than Coillte.

Maintaining rules and standards is totally different to monopolizing something.

Again you haven't demonstrated that it's a monopoly. Has anyone asked to run the HCAP and have they been refused?

There are supposedly around 2,200 deer stalkers in Ireland. Since 2005 approximately 440 of them have passed the HCAP. I hardly think it's the kind of business that would have potential competitors salivating at the prospect of all that ready money :rolleyes:

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

[/COLOR] External to the HCAP and in any event the IDS are part of HCAP or did you forget to quote where I said that as well?

rrps please don't take this debate so personally, I apologize re external, I thought you meant external as in outside Ireland.
_________________________________________________________________

[/COLOR]You've been complaining here that there is no-one to take a case to when you have a difficulty yet where there's a clear point of contact to a group that has taken transparency to the level of publishing their accounts on the internet you take up a gripe here on boards.

I never questioned their accounts, I also have great respect for all the groups involved in The Deer Alliance, I am a former committee member of the Irish Deer Society.

_________________________________________________________________

Without demonstrably having taken it up with them first. I say demonstrably because you haven't said whether you've spoken to anyone other than Coillte.

Read above please.

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[/COLOR]Again you haven't demonstrated that it's a monopoly. Has anyone asked to run the HCAP and have they been refused?

It is not that some other group can or can not run a DMQ, it is that this was driven by Coillte, if Coillte required a course to cover any insurance worries for use of their land/woods, they should run their own and not destroyed the one that was there.

_________________________________________________________________

There are supposedly around 2,200 deer stalkers in Ireland. Since 2005 approximately 440 of them have passed the HCAP. I hardly think it's the kind of business that would have potential competitors salivating at the prospect of all that ready money :rolleyes:

rrpc, Safety should not be about money, facts< there was a course their already the IDS one.

My last word on it.

In Sport

Sikamick

Grizzly 45

One other that spooks me here as well.The seeming willingness for everyone to get liscensed,categorised, analyised,piegon holed,and dated!!
If the arguement is it removes the cowboys,nutters etc.It doesn't really,and only increases your payments and discourages others thinking of taking these types of sports.This rush to liscense ourselves could turn into a right nasty can of worms for the future of this sport as well.


After reading the latest post on HCAP,if you fail you can apply to the HCAP board for a re assesment,and pay them 50 quid to process the application!!!!! [So you have somthing like the old Garda Complaints board investigating the Gardai wrong doing and asking to be paid for it as well!.]
Yup no mention of DPA registery,or being coverd by the FOI act as they are a non govt body.IOW no accountability to anyone with a dispute.:rolleyes:

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

rrps please don't take this debate so personally, I apologize re external, I thought you meant external as in outside Ireland.

I don't take anything personally on boards except misspelling of my handle

I never questioned their accounts, I also have great respect for all the groups involved in The Deer Alliance, I am a former committee member of the Irish Deer Society.

It's hard to know what your gripe is then. The IDS signed up to HCAP and are involved in it since 2001.

Read above please.

I have read above, but it doesn't shed any light on my question. The only conclusion I can draw is that you don't like that the IDS had to drop their course in favour of a course with input and involvement from more than just the IDS. From the outside that just looks like sour grapes.

It is not that some other group can or can not run a DMQ, it is that this was driven by Coillte, if Coillte required a course to cover any insurance worries for use of their land/woods, they should run their own and not destroyed the one that was there.

OK, so it's Coillte that you have the problem with. Unfortunately for you, Collte get to say what goes on their land and that's the end of it. To be honest I think I would like to believe that I would have the same rights over my land.

However the genesis of the project, it has had the effect of getting people up to a level of competency that they hitherto hadn't reached bar those who had done other courses. That in itself is a good thing. If there are further steps that need to be taken then by all means press for them as well.

If it should be widened to include all deer shooters in the future, then as Sparks says it should be standardised and be available for others to run and certify the same way that the ECDL and other courses are done.

rrpc, Safety should not be about money, facts< there was a course their already the IDS one.

I never said it was. In fact if you look at the post above which I took from the DA website they are saying the same as you and that the system should break even. As for the IDS course, well they dropped that themselves.

Reading between the lines, I can only conclude that Coillte required a proper test for hunters on their lands (which is their right), the IDS had one, but possibly internicine rivalry prevented that course from being adopted as the de facto standard so a group was formed to come up with a new course that would be agreeable to all parties.

You presumably didn't agree with this approach.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

One other that spooks me here as well.The seeming willingness for everyone to get liscensed,categorised, analyised,piegon holed,and dated!!

Only if you want to shoot on Coillte lands. On the other hand there are many European countries that adopt the same approach for all shooters. In Italy and Spain you have to do a test to get a gun licence, the Italians in fact have the whole thing under the Department of the Army!

If the arguement is it removes the cowboys,nutters etc.It doesn't really,and only increases your payments and discourages others thinking of taking these types of sports.This rush to liscense ourselves could turn into a right nasty can of worms for the future of this sport as well.

The argument is that it puts a little bit of training between peoples ears so that they don't shoot someone by accident or leave a wounded deer wandering around the forests. If people don't feel that they should have their competency tested then they are free to not get involved. If they learn something along the way like not leaving a frearm loaded, well that's an improvement right there.

After reading the latest post on HCAP,if you fail you can apply to the HCAP board for a re assesment,and pay them 50 quid to process the application!!!!! [So you have somthing like the old Garda Complaints board investigating the Gardai wrong doing and asking to be paid for it as well!.]
Yup no mention of DPA registery,or being coverd by the FOI act as they are a non govt body.IOW no accountability to anyone with a dispute.:rolleyes:

Or something like having your leaving or junior cert papers rechecked (€30 per paper), or your NCT test redone etc. etc. In the case of the HCAP its a re-test btw, not a re-assessment. You get to sit the test all over again for half price.
As for the Data Protection Act, the HCAP would have to comply with it. As for people with a dispute, well has anyone got any input on how these are dealt with?

shaft666

Sikamick wrote: »

jwshooter would you be kind enough to explain what the DMQ 1 and specifically
DMQ 2 involves.




Sikamick

Sikamick,
DMQ website will explain all here http://www.dmq.org.uk/

It is a lot more complex course (and a lot more money!) but as someone else said in the long term you will gain a lot more from doing it which has to be better for the deer we hunt.

Paul

rrpc

Interesting to note that DMQ only maintain quality standards and issue certification to those running the courses. This backs up what Sparks said earlier about setting and maintaining standards in these courses.

The only problem I see here with this approach is the numbers involved: The DMQ has qualified over 25,000 people whereas here there is a max of maybe 3,000 (and that's being generous) who would need to take a course making it pretty much non-viable as a commercial proposition and therefore adding a competitive element to the course fees.