Protest: Demonstration to protest against Government bail outs of property developers

20goto10

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

No, all you've done is point out factors that will influence the boom-bust cycle, from which reasonable predicitions may be made. You just don't like the probable outcomes.

Yes I'm saying there are more factors to it than you are claiming. All you've done is regurgitate David McWilliams, an argument now outdated as there are more factors involved. Factors which, if you can forgive me for getting back on topic, have been recognised by the government and hence this proposal.

gurramok

20goto10 wrote: »

No I didn't. I said the numbers were proof that you are in a minority. Where's the slagging in that?

Here, see below, this is slagging the protest. Your saying a turnout of 30 proves that the majority out there does not want prices to fall further, thats insane logic as it is false and with no backup.

20goto10 wrote:

And seeing as their are millions of home owners in the country I think you are in the minority when it comes to the opinion that prices should fall much further. A turn out of about 30 at the protest would seem to back that up.

20goto10 wrote:

And the article shows that this was a protest for FTBs made by FTBs.

No it does not. It shows it was a protest against any bailout of developers using FTB's as a vehicle with taxpayers money to keep prices high and laiden FTB's with a lifetime of debt.

I can tell you from my correspondence with the protesters. They are a mixture of homeowners, FTB's, trade-uppers, investors, renters and would you believe mortgage-brokers and estate agents(the honest type).

So in my view, you are telling porkies and misleading people with that post.

20goto10

20goto10 wrote: »

Its all been blown on public sector wages when it should have been spent on infrastructure and building up a knowledge based economy.

hang on. What is a knowledge based economy?
Are you suggesting, like the Government has, that this can be the foundation of our future economy?

Its a branch of an advanced economy not the base of an economy. It needs huge resources and manpower to do.

Colonel Sanders

20goto10 wrote: »

Name me a time in Irish history where you could buy a home without being saddled with what appears to be a lifetime of debt? I mean at the time of buying its a lifetime of debt but in reality with wage inflation it doesn't materialise as such (for past generations I mean). It remains to be seen with this generation.

My parents (and a lot of others I know) comfortably bought half decent houses in the 70s with mortgages of a max term of 20 years on probably less than the average industrial wage

How many could do this at todays price levels?

SimpleSam06

20goto10 wrote: »

Yes I'm saying there are more factors to it than you are claiming.

Ahahah, again with the strawman. This is getting sad. Can you point out to me where I said there were no other factors involved, like a good man. You however seem to be on a one way trip to lala land with your fingers plugged firmly in your ears, hoping against hope that the taxpayer bails you out, and using global economic conditions as a pat excuse.

20goto10 wrote: »

All you've done is regurgitate David McWilliams, an argument now outdated as there are more factors involved.

Brilliant. Why don't you go ahead and point out to me where I copied and pasted anything McWilliams (who I never read, unless his articles show up in a thread) has said?

On the other hand, all you've done is handwave and make general statements which have been thoroughly refuted by the posters on here, as well as putting words into others mouths that you can more easily refute, despite that never having been said, hoping no one would notice.

Back yourself up or stop wasting everyone's time here, you are starting to look like a troll at this stage, and you wouldn't be the first.

20goto10 wrote: »

Factors which, if you can forgive me for getting back on topic, have been recognised by the government and hence this proposal.

Hahahah, ahh. The disconnect between your reality and the real world is that the rest of us are looking at the bigger picture. You are merely using small parts of the bigger picture to try to dig yourself out.

Colonel Sanders

20goto10 wrote: »

And the article shows that this was a protest for FTBs made by FTBs.

A common myth about proprty bears and in particular the "inhabitants" of the property pin. If you actually read the 'pin (or if you came along to the protest and spoke to those there) you will see exactly what Guarramok said.

Look at the organiser of yesterday's protest. He is in effect what could be termed a VI. A bailout would probably do wonders for his business. But he has more than money in mind.

Before you ask, i am not a home owner. i don't feel a need to own a house, i rent and am quite happy to do so. I would happily buy a house but only when some semblance of reality re-enters the market and I can afford a place I actually want to live in at a price I feel is reasonable. I will never buy just to 'get on the ladder'. I could buy a half decent hosue in a nice area tomorrow, however i refuse to pay an idiotic price for said house

SimpleSam06

Deleted User wrote: »

Its a branch of an advanced economy not the base of an economy. It needs huge resources and manpower to do.

Its not even that, its a failed economic theory that has no place in government policies. It more or less boils down to getting paid to move money around in various computer systems, and praying China doesn't revoke your patents for the laugh. See Iceland for details on the results of that theory. Or just stick around, we'll have a front row seat here shortly.

SimpleSam06

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Its not even that, its a failed economic theory that has no place in government policies. It more or less boils down to getting paid to move money around in various computer systems, and praying China doesn't revoke your patents for the laugh. See Iceland for details on the results of that theory. Or just stick around, we'll have a front row seat here shortly.

yeah i agree, I didnt mean patents by that remark though I was thinking more like NASA

SimpleSam06

Deleted User wrote: »

yeah i agree, I didnt mean patents by that remark though I was thinking more like NASA

Yup, NASA does the research, puts patents on it for protection, and then your manufacturing gets outsourced to some third world hole who rebrand and resell it while laughing their asses off, because they know you are dependent on their cheap production to keep your economy intact, so you can't enforce your patents. Its a hole in the theory of "knowledge economies" you could drive a cheap knockoff bus through.

Naturally, none of the geniuses who proposed it and pushed for it saw that one coming.

20goto10

Deleted User wrote: »

Its a branch of an advanced economy not the base of an economy. It needs huge resources and manpower to do.

Its a branch of our advanced and matured IT economy, which yes I consider to be the base of our economy. We're right up there with the big boys of India and the US. I'm saying it most definitely warranted investment and government support during the boom, not now after the boom when all the money has been squandered.

20goto10

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Yup, NASA does the research, puts patents on it for protection, and then your manufacturing gets outsourced to some third world hole who rebrand and resell it while laughing their asses off, because they know you are dependent on their cheap production to keep your economy intact, so you can't enforce your patents. Its a hole in the theory of "knowledge economies" you could drive a cheap knockoff bus through.

Naturally, none of the geniuses who proposed it and pushed for it saw that one coming.

Nice point but not restricted to a knowledge economy per se. Its a fact of outsourcing manufacturing no matter what your economy is.

SimpleSam06

20goto10 wrote: »

Nice point but not restricted to a knowledge economy per se. Its a fact of outsourcing manufacturing no matter what your economy is.

Indeed, we could all stand to take a page out of the book of Germany, who I expect to sail through the coming financial troubles with ease.

Doesn't change the fact that a "knowledge economy" is bunk.

20goto10

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Indeed, we could all stand to take a page out of the book of Germany, who I expect to sail through the coming financial troubles with ease.

You might want to revise that prediction

SimpleSam06

20goto10 wrote: »

You might want to revise that prediction

Nah, their economy is heavily export based, with a tremendous domestic industrial base, which is exactly where an economy should be. They won't come through it entirely unscathed of course, but they will be in a far better position than most countries.

Zambia

Heres a plan

People.
Everyone should save money till they have a decent deposit , then get a mortgage then buy a house.

Builders
Builders should Value houses relative to the price of building them

The Goverment
The Goverment should reduce Stamp duty levels they having been using this dildo on us for years. It was always to high.

In 2006 an good average wage was 30 -35 grand in dublin a decent 3 bed house was about 11 times that. The signs where clear. Anyone who did not see it was just not looking.

This huge over supply of Stock will be shifted it just wont happen overnight nor should it. Best of luck to anyone protesting. It is gonna hurt everyone but if you dislocate your arm it hurts jamming it back into place.

jmayo

plasmaguy wrote: »

The problem with a board like this is....you have lots of people reading it, each one with a dfferenent interest and each one with a different opinion.

If a hundred different people read this thread and read something I write, 50 might agree with me while 50 might disagree and express another opinion..

I have stated my opinion, but unfortunately, given the emotive nature of the topic in question I don't have the time to answer each poster individually and if i did answer each poster individually another 10 posters would take me to task on what I say.

There is only one of me and about 20 opposing me on this thread, now that doesn't make them right and me wrong, but it does mean they can post once and go off while I am supposed to answer what they say and the other 19 say as well.

I don't believe in terms of public finances, it's wise to sit on our hands and wait for an improvement in world markets. We have brains in this country so why not put them to good use? Should we as a nation be dictated to by the Wall Street moguls of the government we elect? I know which I prefer.

Like I say anyone who thinks we can survive with a 10 billion deficit a year is deceiving themselves. It will mean cutbacks, pure and simple. Is anyone here old enough to remember what the cutbacks of the 80's were like?

I just don't want to see our public finances and remember FF only manage them, but it's our money, not theirs, dragged through the mud like they did near the end of the 70's and which we were paying for decades to fix and if people think I'm dumb for saying that, it's water off a duck's back to me!

Jeeze if you can find 50 people to agree with you, let us know where because I want to sell them shares in a new development company I am starting.
Did it ever dawn on you that there is 1 of your view versus 20 of the opposing view because your idea is basically cr** and will only prolong the inevitable and waste money that is needed elsewhere.
An economy that involves building each other houses is not sustainable.

Basically you seem to want to give our taxes so builders, chippies, sparks, etc can stay in work.
Yes I remember the 80s when most of my classmates caught a flight or took the boat to England.
Do I want it to reoccurr ? No, but do I want to committ even more TAX money to keeping a group of workers in work for no valid reason.

20goto10 wrote: »

Its a branch of our advanced and matured IT economy, which yes I consider to be the base of our economy. We're right up there with the big boys of India and the US. I'm saying it most definitely warranted investment and government support during the boom, not now after the boom when all the money has been squandered.

Complete s****...
IT is the base of our economy, what are you on ?
Construction and retail are the base of our economy at the moment and that is why we are f***ed.
How many major indigenous multinational IT (software or hardware) related companies do we have ?
Do you remmeber Baltimore, Trintech, Iona?
Where are they now, either defunct, bought out or a pale reminder of their former glory ?
Our supposed great IT based economy is dependent on multinationals, US in particular, basing some of their operations here.
Take out Microsoft, Intel, Dell, IBM and HP what have you got.
Some of their operations are affectively sales and support centres, with Intel being the only real hitech operation that cannot be easily moved elsewhere.
The number of times I have heard this s***e coming out about our future as a knowledge economy.
And what will all the engineers, scientists, economists, accountants coming out of colleges in India be doing?
Continuing to work in the data centres we once had, I doubt it.

Oh and just because people didn't make the protest outside Dail doesnotmean that we do not agree with it.

Victor

Can people not hog the thread please?

ronbyrne2005

I would'nt read too much into the numbers protesting outside Dail. Remember earlier this year when loads of groups got together to organise a " march for a decent health system" or somesuch, they expected 70,000+ people due to the constant media coverage and public outrsge on the topic but a tiny fraction of those expected actually turned up. The protest achieved it aims in getting attention in media and is part of a wider project to inform public about insanity of any bailout of builders under guise of helping FTBs.

Gurgle

Does anyone have a link to info on these government bailouts?

Or is this the usual crap from the "I refuse to buy a house until they drop below €2.50 & I'll prove myself right if I have to cause a global nuclear war" brigade?

Theboinkmaster

Gurgle wrote: »

Does anyone have a link to info on these government bailouts?

Or is this the usual crap from the "I refuse to buy a house until they drop below €2.50 & I'll prove myself right if I have to cause a global nuclear war" brigade?

Instead of posting such a lazy, ignorant post why don't you educate yourself and read the whole thread first.

Muppet.

Calina

20goto10 wrote: »

Its a branch of our advanced and matured IT economy, which yes I consider to be the base of our economy. We're right up there with the big boys of India and the US. I'm saying it most definitely warranted investment and government support during the boom, not now after the boom when all the money has been squandered.

Unfortunately 20goto10, it did not gety anything like the investment and support it required. If it had, we would have some sort of a reasonable broadband infrastructure nationally and we wouldn't have a chronic shortage of people applying for IT and engineering courses and our standards in maths at school leaving stage would not be sliding the way it is.

I am sure that with a little thought and cop on we could make it but we are not up there with the big boys in India - I am not sure I would want to be anyway as everything I have heard about outsourcing development there has been mixed at absolute best - and much of export in the area of IT is related to transfer pricing.

Our structures for fostering innovation are ham strung; our support for small businesses and bankruptcy legislation hamstring start-ups. If we want a knowledge economy we need to completely reassess how we educate people and how we fund ideas. In some respects, we need more of a change of mindset than we do of finance.

Additionally, much of our available and very cheap capital over the past 8 years - and interest rates are still comparatively low in long terms than comparatively high - was plunged into property, and not into anything remotely productive in the long term. We built a lot of houses that we do not need.

Zambia232 wrote: »

Heres a plan

People.
Everyone should save money till they have a decent deposit , then get a mortgage then buy a house.

Builders
Builders should Value houses relative to the price of building them

The Goverment
The Goverment should reduce Stamp duty levels they having been using this dildo on us for years. It was always to high.

In 2006 an good average wage was 30 -35 grand in dublin a decent 3 bed house was about 11 times that. The signs where clear. Anyone who did not see it was just not looking.

This huge over supply of Stock will be shifted it just wont happen overnight nor should it. Best of luck to anyone protesting. It is gonna hurt everyone but if you dislocate your arm it hurts jamming it back into place.

I think that a measure of prudence needs to come back to lending. I utterly agree with deposits and shorter mortgage terms.

Business being business I see no reason why developers shouldn't price according to what the market will bear. That means that now, the market is bearing a lot less than it bore 3 years ago. Suck it and live with it. Don't expect me to subsidise old prices when the market won't bear them.

It's not a question of not looking as far as the price/salary ratios were concerned: people were deliberately looking else where or trying to rationalise the irrational to themselves.

Stamp duty is a transactional tax so it should be flatrated. In fact, stamp only because an issue because house prices ballooned. Sane house prices would not have seen anywhere near as much money having to be spent on stamp duty. Rationalisation of property values will sort that out.

As for the over supply of stock, it may get sorted in some areas. I have doubts about anywhere which is not within 30 miles of a reasonable employment centre, particularly housing estates.

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

I would'nt read too much into the numbers protesting outside Dail.

Nor would I, for various reasons which include location; available time; people's various views about going anywhere near the city centre, and the fact that some people, for their personal reasons, may hold views but may not get involved in protests.

________________________

Ireland's housing bubble is a local tragedy. It's not unique although the extent of it was spectacular. Trying to prop it up is not good for the country in the long term. We had a spectacular success with IT in the 1990s because someone somewhere did some outside the box thinking. Unfortunately we now need some outside the box thinking again; the sort of thinking that would have got you screamed at for the last 6 years. We need something we can export and God knows it needs to be something people will want to buy at a time when the global economy is in chaos (again). Houses are not it. Propping up the property market will not be to the benefit of this country; it only will put off the inevitable which is a serious economic meltdown caused by us not being able to pay the debts we took out on houses we don't need.

Adding to that debt and pile of houses that we don't need to spare some short term pain for a few decimates future generations. I remember the 1980s/. I remember the cutbacks. I remember not having any disposable cash and dammit I knew how to darn socks. We need to invest in the future now, not in 5 years time when all your tradesmen still haven't faced reality. Because construction hoovered up people because of the short term gains who might certainly have been better off with other options.

Under your scenario of vaguely stimulating the property market, we are more likely to be back there for a long time than if we do something about stimulating the export sector. A bundle of our start ups had to traipse off to San Francisco and teh Valley early this year because they do not get the support they need nearer.

SimpleSam06

Calina wrote: »

If we want a knowledge economy we need to completely reassess how we educate people and how we fund ideas.

We don't want a knowledge economy. I'm not at all sure such a thing can even exist. We want a hard industrial base with domestic enterprises exporting to other countries.

Gurgle

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Instead of posting such a lazy, ignorant post why don't you educate yourself and read the whole thread first.

Muppet.

On a thread titled:
"Demonstration to protest against Government bail outs of property developers"

Is it too much to ask for a link to some outside source?
Maybe some evidence that theres an issue to protest against?

And this:

Gurgle wrote:

Or is this the usual crap from the "I refuse to buy a house until they drop below €2.50 & I'll prove myself right if I have to cause a global nuclear war" brigade?

seems to fit the bill nicely. :P

SimpleSam06

Gurgle wrote: »

On a thread titled:
"Demonstration to protest against Government bail outs of property developers"

Is it too much to ask for a link to some outside source?

Here.

Calina

Calina wrote: »

If we want a knowledge economy

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

We don't want a knowledge economy. I'm not at all sure such a thing can even exist. We want a hard industrial base with domestic enterprises exporting to other countries.

If you know that a knowledge economy is, please enlighten me here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055386133

so far Ive had no replies........

SimpleSam06

Deleted User wrote: »

If you know that a knowledge economy is, please enlighten me here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055386133

so far Ive had no replies........

Pretty much exactly as I have already described it. Soft industry, research and services based (primarily financial), counting on totalitarian regimes to respect your patent rights and do all the heavy industrial lifting with their endless hordes of one-step-away-from-free labour, despite the fact that your economy has become so hooked on their cheap output that they could put you out of business more or less on a whim, and inevitably will.

Its a great big "let them eat cake" to 95% of the world, a middle manager's five year plan. Idiocy, in other words.

plasmaguy

chump wrote: »

You won't be answering the posters because you can't answer them.
You're full of bluster and rhetoric and have nothing whatsoever to backup anything you've said.

You aren't arguing or debating anything. You're stating beliefs and refusing to engage in a discussion about your beliefs.

Good day to you

Buddy you couldn't be more wrong...I have a life outside this website whereas it appears you don't! If you want to discuss the economic problems of this country, fine, we can do that, but by PM, because I have better things to do then answer some of the frankly bizarre economic policies advocated by most people on here.

If someone wants to post idiocy on here, fine, but don't expect me to waste my time answering their idiocy...and why should I answer someone like you who misrepresents what I say and tells lies about me? To be honest we both have different opinions and arguing until the cows come home probably won't convince either or any of us to change our opinions.

It would mean however all of us wasting our time..

So anyone who wants to discuss the issue can do so with me by PM.

chump

plasmaguy wrote: »

I have a life outside this website whereas it appears you don't!

So anyone who wants to discuss the issue can do so with me by PM.

You must have had a cosseted life.

To have such blind faith in your own little fantasy...

EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG. ME RIGHT. GET A LIFE.

Victor

If people can't be civil to each other, I'm going to start handing out bans.

gurramok

Todays Indo http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/stimulus-for-housing-will-only-benefit-developers-1485931.html

Indo wrote:

IT seems highly likely the Budget will contain some sort of stimulus for the housing industry.

Of course, it will not be presented like that. Instead, it will be dressed up by the Government as a boost for first-time buyers. But call it what you like, the reality is that any budgetary stimulus package for house buyers will end up being a bailout for builders and do nothing for want-to-be homeowners.

This is because any housing package for first-time buyers will distort the market by stopping prices falling to their market-clearing level.

First-time buyers would be better served by allowing house prices find their natural level rather than giving prices an artificial and temporary lift.

Policy makers and cabinet ministers in this country have a short memory. They have forgotten that all previous attempts to tinker with the property market have backfired.

The housing market is collapsing under the weight of its own excess, and putative first-time buyers will not thank anyone who keeps prices artificially high.

Opposition parties have pointed out the folly of attempting to stimulate the market at a time when prices are re-adjusting after years of bubble price rises. And a disparate group, made up of financial advisers, academics and engineers, protested outside the Dail last week to drive home the point that measures to boost house buying will end up being a bailout for builders.

Ireland does not suffer from an epidemic homeless problem. Rents have been coming down and there is no shortage of houses for sale and for rent.

In fact, Goodbody's Dermot O'Leary estimates that there is an 18-month supply of second-hand houses for sale.

Ruses

What the market needs more than anything is for sellers of second-hand houses to cut their sale prices to more realistic levels and for developers to slash their prices. Developers are desperate to avoid cutting their prices. Rather than dramatic price drops, we are seeing ruses such as free cars being offered with houses.

The money for a housing stimulus package would be better spent on the health and education sectors.

A society that values aiding developers over getting school children out of overcrowded prefabs is a society with a skewed set of priorities.

So Mr Cowen, forget the State-sponsored bailout for builders. It will be of no benefit to first-time buyers.

- Charlie Weston

Again, well done to all involved.