Protest: Demonstration to protest against Government bail outs of property developers

ZYX

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Here.

All this says is the government may bring in incentives to make it easier for 1st time buyers to buy houses. Is this really what people want to protest against?

ZYX

ZYX wrote: »

All this says is the government may bring in incentives to make it easier for 1st time buyers to buy houses. Is this really what people want to protest against?

?

Its basically sub prime lending that is being proposed. An inflationary measure.
House prices are coming down, why stimulate them?
Leave it alone and 1st time buyers will be able to buy at a cheaper price than if the government interferes and introduces a price floor.

ZYX

Deleted User wrote: »

?

Its basically sub prime lending that is being proposed. An inflationary measure.
House prices are coming down, why stimulate them?
Leave it alone and 1st time buyers will be able to buy at a cheaper price than if the government interferes and introduces a price floor.

Who says sub prime lending is being proposed? I was talking about SimpleSam06's link. That just says they are going to give incentives to 1st time buyers.

Climate Expert

That just says they are going to give incentives to 1st time buyers.

Incentives to ensure there are buyers to pay for houses at current prices. Incentives which will cost the tax payers money and only to keep the builders in profit. Use your head a little.

ZYX

Climate Expert wrote: »

Incentives to ensure there are buyers to pay for houses at current prices. Incentives which will cost the tax payers money and only to keep the builders in profit. Use your head a little.

When I bought my first house I got a "first time buyers grant". This was scrapped when the market was rising hugely. Reintroducing this would cost just about nothing and is certainly not worth marching about.

punchestown

ZYX wrote: »

When I bought my first house I got a "first time buyers grant". This was scrapped when the market was rising hugely. Reintroducing this would cost just about nothing and is certainly not worth marching about.

The 'grant' that the CIF are proposing is about €50,000. They are looking to offload their huge surplus of property without recourse to dropping prices. Say the average price of a home for a FTB is €260,000. Banks are now only lending 80% of the value in the majority of cases. That leaves young couple buying needing a deposit of 20% i.e. €52,000. Sadly the majority of couples dont have 52k to hand. Tom Parlon and his cronies are campaigning for the Government to come up with some sort of scheme to provide the 50k (to be repaid down the line when the problem is not Toms and his ilk) If you cannot see the effect this will have on the market (other than the viewpoint of a VI who wishes property prices stay high) then you obviously wouldnt understand what the demonstration was about!

ZYX

punchestown wrote: »

The 'grant' that the CIF are proposing is about €50,000. They are looking to offload their huge surplus of property without recourse to dropping prices. Say the average price of a home for a FTB is €260,000. Banks are now only lending 80% of the value in the majority of cases. That leaves young couple buying needing a deposit of 20% i.e. €52,000. Sadly the majority of couples dont have 52k to hand. Tom Parlon and his cronies are campaigning for the Government to come up with some sort of scheme to provide the 50k (to be repaid down the line when the problem is not Toms and his ilk) If you cannot see the effect this will have on the market (other than the viewpoint of a VI who wishes property prices stay high) then you obviously wouldnt understand what the demonstration was about!

Ah, so the protest was against the CIF. You are going to be going on a lot of protests if you protest against every loby group you disagree with.

Gurgle

ZYX wrote: »

When I bought my first house I got a "first time buyers grant". This was scrapped when the market was rising hugely. Reintroducing this would cost just about nothing and is certainly not worth marching about.

This thread (actually the entire forum) is exclusively for the annointed faithful, who have been waiting 5+ years for the housing bubble to burst and prices to return (:D)to a level where a 3rd level student can pay the mortgage out of his grant check.

Calina

ZYX wrote: »

When I bought my first house I got a "first time buyers grant". This was scrapped when the market was rising hugely. Reintroducing this would cost just about nothing and is certainly not worth marching about.

Just about nothing? 50K a head for 30,000 houses overhang that the developers have?

You're joking right?

The average property price is still about 8 times the average salary. This is not sustainable, grant or no grant. I have no objection to support for FTBs. I reject supporting FTBs into a lifetime of debt slavery. The developers hit the big time when the market was rising. They weren't screaming for aid to FTBs when they had people queuing outside developments on release days when properties were 10 times the average salary. Now...however, no one is buying, houses prices are down 15% and suddenly the FTBs need help.

Strange. I have no objection to aid to FTBs - their stamp duty exemption is one hell of a benefit. I have huge problems with the idea that it might indirectly support the developers who have in the past 6 years made an absolute fortune out of property. The best support for FTBs is falling house prices, not house prices artificially maintained by bucking prudent lending.

Gurgle, if you can make a valid point about how current house prices are sustainable, that would be interesting.

ZYX

Calina wrote: »

Just about nothing? 50K a head for 30,000 houses overhang that the developers have?.

Just link where this is government policy and I will agree with you. Otherwise you are marching against the opinion of CIF.

Calina wrote: »

Now...however, no one is buying, houses prices are down 15% and suddenly the FTBs need help.

Well 5500 people a month are buying.

Calina

So why do we need support then?

ZYX

Calina wrote: »

So why do we need support then?

Sorry your link did not show up

ionapaul

I agreed with the protestors, but at this stage, anything the government does is just staving off the inevitable for another few months / years - prices are dropping and will continue to drop. The suggested 'FTB incentives' are a transfer of government (taxpayer) money to the developers via the FTB stooges; once the incentives are over and done with, the prices will just drop even faster than before. Luckily the developers won't be sitting on unsold stock by then and hopefully will avoid bankrupcy and paying the cost of their poor business decisions. The taxpayer will be happy to pay for this and everyone will be content!

NOTHING the government can suggest or do will halt the price drops, NOTHING; I don't think they particularly care (nor should they), this is just about rescuing those elements of the important construction and property industry that they'd prefer not to go bankrupt.

gurramok

ZYX, look at the following post in this thread.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57362407&postcount=23

Now, the papers are quoting govt sources for extending the scheme from 185k to 300k for a borrower. Its better to pre-empt this in protest that try to overturn it when the time comes even if they are way off the mark in their 'sources'
http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/digouts-agreed--for-buyers-on-lower-incomes-1477388.html

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlqlojojkf/rss2/

jackal

ZYX wrote: »

When I bought my first house I got a "first time buyers grant". This was scrapped when the market was rising hugely. Reintroducing this would cost just about nothing and is certainly not worth marching about.

The first time buyers grant was 2000 punts. Im all for re-introducing it if that was all that people wanted. 3000 euros or so... yay! Approximately 1% of the price of a house.

Why were grants, incentives, help and so on not introduced when first time buyers really needed help - when the market was rising, and we had money overflowing from every sewer in ireland along our golden-brick roads? Now they plan on introducing them when the exchequer is in huge deficit, prices are becoming affordable and there is a big stand off between sellers with unrealistic expectations and buyers with less cash and more cop on?

gurramok

As a result of this protest, my colleagues on the Pin have submitted a state aid complaint to Euroland about the 'homechoiceloan' scheme which is a scheme for buyers who have been rejected by the banks and given state loans for only new builds

Details here if you want to submit the complaint http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055404191

For those of you who have strong(hopefully good ) feelings about the protest, this complaint is like some action to save naive buyers from a lifetime of debt at the behest of big developers who will not drop prices to a market clearing level.

Hope mods are ok with reviving this thread as i feel its a precursor to the complaint action since the budget was announced!

johnnyskeleton

gurramok wrote: »

Hope mods are ok with reviving this thread as i feel its a precursor to the complaint action since the budget was announced!

This is Boards.ie, not AAM. I've tried everything to incur the wrath of the mods, and all that's ever happened was an infraction (from the FITNESS forum).

SimpleSam06

gurramok wrote: »

ZYX, look at the following post in this thread.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57362407&postcount=23

Now, the papers are quoting govt sources for extending the scheme from 185k to 300k for a borrower. Its better to pre-empt this in protest that try to overturn it when the time comes even if they are way off the mark in their 'sources'
http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/digouts-agreed--for-buyers-on-lower-incomes-1477388.html

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlqlojojkf/rss2/

Waste of effort. Reality means nothing to some people, because they are probably dangerously overextended in the property market, and if things continue for much longer, they'll be in real trouble. The promises that were made to them of eternal financial security, the rose-tinted future of luxuriating in an ever-growing property portfolio while the peasants toil in McDonalds, it seems impossible that that was all lies.

So they'll say and do exactly anything, however outlandish, to reinflate the property market, regardless of the detrimental effects it has on their own people. They'd put the nation in penury for a banker's promise.

The_Conductor

ZYX wrote: »

When I bought my first house I got a "first time buyers grant". This was scrapped when the market was rising hugely. Reintroducing this would cost just about nothing and is certainly not worth marching about.

The cost would be a minimum of EUR1.5 billion (assuming the overhang is only 30k houses- its actually closer to 80k houses, if you factor in the part completions).

S.

The_Conductor

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

This is Boards.ie, not AAM. I've tried everything to incur the wrath of the mods, and all that's ever happened was an infraction (from the FITNESS forum).

And a one week temp ban in this forum........

ZYX

smccarrick wrote: »

The cost would be a minimum of EUR1.5 billion (assuming the overhang is only 30k houses- its actually closer to 80k houses, if you factor in the part completions).

S.

I think you need a new calculator. €1.5 billion implies a first time buyers grant of €50,000. I never suggested that. Maybe you meant it would generate €1.5 billion gain in VAT?

The_Conductor

ZYX wrote: »

I think you need a new calculator. €1.5 billion implies a first time buyers grant of €50,000. I never suggested that. Maybe you meant it would generate €1.5 billion gain in VAT?

You didn't suggest it, no. Tom Parlon from the Construction Industry Federation did though. It was also mentioned by Michael Flynn- of erstewhile Elysian development fame, at the Cork Chamber of Commerce Conference yesterday. They want a First Time Buyers grant, sufficient to bring the finance available to First time buyers up to 100%, reintroduced as soon as possible. Obviously they feel that the evil bankers not giving everyone 100% mortgages are the reason the property market is at a standstill, not that the prices are totally and utterly unreasonable.

S.

gurramok

The EU are now involved due to compaints received (including mine )
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1113/1226408580270.html

Article leaves out another aspect of the complaint. The HFA was setup for low income familes to get finance for housing yet this scheme is only open to those who earn over €40k!

mrgaa1

As a nation we are unreal - our country is basically on its knees and almost horizontal and any initiatives to create work, generate revenue and basically getting things moving somewhere and we complain. What do we want - a salary from the government and not work for it?

Some of the posts here are almost in glee that developers (and mind you there were some real greedy ones) and building contractors are going bust all over the place meaning that hard working trades and craftsmen are out of work. Is this something to be happy about? The building industry - whether some people here like it or not - is a major cornerstone of our countrys livelihood.

House prices are now affordable - a friend of mine went and got a mortgage recently for a house and the valuation from the bank came back higher than what the price he was paying for. Peoples expectations have to change and liquidation of the banks has to occur.

There are websites that are freely accessible where tenders for building works are published and in the past three days EIGHT tenders appeared for the whole of Ireland.

Why was there no rallies organised about the saving of our banks - their debts are unreal - but organise a rally because someone calls it a "developer bailout". Some peoples priorities are all wrong and this mindset only leads to negative thinking.

If we don't watch ourselves our country will go down the sink as industry after industry move to other countries. Will this be the builders fault - our infrastructure is still very poor, our broadband is a joke and like it or not (unless some people want to pick up a pick and shovel) the construction industry will have to complete this work. But if the monies are not released nothing will happen.

Also - another reason for costly builds is our pay structure. Anyone here willing to take a 30% pay cut and do the same or take on more work. I wouldn't think so.

Stop giving out about initiatives and lets move forward. OUR country is facing its greatest crisis - no point blaming the past all we can do is learn from it - we have to deal with the now and whats going to happen. Ireland needs to be ready for when we come out of recession otherwise what industries will be left for us to avail of job opportunitys.

Climate Expert

The building industry - whether some people here like it or not - is a major cornerstone of our countrys livelihood.

And now a good thing has happened, its retracting back to a size that it should have always been. Building houses creates no wealth in an economy.

faceman

Im not fully up to speed with the protest but I presumably its a "down with that sort of thing" protest?

I would rather see a protest where by a representative from the protesters presents the government with a viable alternative as to how the government can promote economic growth elsewhere etc where those out of work due to a downturn in construction can be redeployed or retrained elsewhere.

All in all there are greater issues out there at the moment such as a health service, but unless people are touched by those issues, they tend to turn a blind eye to them.

Climate Expert

Im not fully up to speed with the protest but I presumably its a "down with that sort of thing" protest?

Why bother commenting if you don't know anything about it.

faceman

Climate Expert wrote: »

Why bother commenting if you don't know anything about it.

Is there a rule to say i cant?

ZYX

Don't worry faceman. You are bang on the money.

SimpleSam06

mrgaa1 wrote: »

The building industry - whether some people here like it or not - is a major cornerstone of our countrys livelihood.

Say it with me:

Construction is worthless to the economy.
Construction is worthless to the economy.
Construction is worthless to the economy.
Construction is worthless to the economy.

Got it? Good man.

Borrowing from future earnings to feed some developer's coke habit is worthless to the economy.

mrgaa1 wrote: »

House prices are now affordable

House prices were affordable back in 2006. Doesn't mean they were good value. They were extremely poor value, and still are today. Give it a few more years though and the situation will rectify itself.

faceman wrote: »

Im not fully up to speed with the protest but I presumably its a "down with that sort of thing" protest?

As Gurramok pointed out, its being taken to the EU under anticompetitive legislation, so its a bit more than a "down with that sort of thing" protest.

faceman wrote: »

I would rather see a protest where by a representative from the protesters presents the government with a viable alternative as to how the government can promote economic growth elsewhere etc where those out of work due to a downturn in construction can be redeployed or retrained elsewhere.

I presented a fairly reasonable, practical, if somewhat radical plan in AH a while back, don't know if you caught it. The only ones crying about the plan were union reps. I might dig it out again.

faceman wrote: »

All in all there are greater issues out there at the moment such as a health service, but unless people are touched by those issues, they tend to turn a blind eye to them.

Money spent on worthless houses = money not spent on health.