Protest: Demonstration to protest against Government bail outs of property developers

SimpleSam06

EF wrote: »

These populist attacks on the Public Service are nothing new. They seek, for ideological reasons, to distract from the failures of those who have brought about the recession. In this case the whipping boys are public servants but there have also been attempts to create hostility to other groups such as foreign workers.

Yes, public sector workers are a persecuted minority. I especially liked the reference to Jews, thats tasteful, and no doubt the many holocaust survivors still around will appreciate it.

Meanwhile:

Irish Public Service 2001-2006: Salaries up 59%; Payroll up 18% - 38,000 workers and Pensions up 81.3%
By Finfacts Team
Jun 29, 2006, 08:27

Irish public service salaries have risen by 59% in the past five years and the payroll has expanded by 38,000 extra staff. The increase in the average industrial wage for a male worker in the period 2001-2005, was 19%.

The Exchequer’s annual wages and pensions bill increased sharply from €10.2 billion in 2001 to €16.2bn last year, with what has been termed "benchmarking" accounting for up to €1.32bn of the rise.

The number of public servants grew by 38,760, or 18%, since 2001 to 257,013 last January.

The education sector saw the biggest increase with pay costs rising by 65%. Health sector pay surged by 63% in the period, civil service salaries rose 48% and in the security sector they rose by 34.8%. The average weekly earnings for non-health service public sector workers stood at €848 last September, according to the CSO.

This was above the €754 for the banking and insurance sector and €579 for industrial workers.

Public sector pay rose by 8% in 2005 and pensions now account for 10% of the total pay bill, up from 8.6% in 2001. The pensions bill has increased from €876m in 2001 to €1,588m in 2006 representing an 81.3% increase over the period. The increase in the health sector has been 104%. Pensioners also received the special benchmarking increase of an average of 9%.

The core finding was that on average, public servants earned 13 per cent more than their private sector counterparts on a like-for-like basis in 2001. The researchers also discovered that the size of this margin (the public sector premium) in 2001 was not significantly different from what it had been in 1994, suggesting that pay increases in the public sector had kept pace with the private sector throughout the Celtic Tiger period.

Another discovery was that the margin by which public service workers outearned their private sector counterparts tended to be significantly larger at the bottom of the income distribution than at the top.

A particularly striking finding was that the estimate of the public sector premium for Ireland was more than twice as large as the available estimates for other countries.

Last November, Davy Stockbrokers said that Irish public sector pay is on average around 120 percent of private sector earnings, having risen from 113 percent in the past five years, according to Davy Stockbrokers.

In a weekly market comment, Davy said that figures from the CSO (Central Statistics Office) indicated that average earnings in the public sector are now more than €43,000 a year. This compares with €33,500 in the private sector (industrial, construction, distribution and other sectors).

"Moreover, these crude comparisons take no account of the superior pension entitlements available to the public sector," Chief Economist Robbie Kelleher said.

Yeah.

ParkRunner

I cant argue with your statistics but the private sector couldnt have cared less about these statistics when the banks were handing out exorbitant loans to people and the general consensus was that the economy was on the gravy train. In my own opinion I agree that the surplus cash could have been better spent on infrastructure and education rather than administration. Dan Murphy represents the lower and average payscale end of the civil service so I think he has every right to represent this group who also have the everyday struggles to face.

SkepticOne

Unfortunately with things like the builder bailout and other supports to the property market there may not be the money to sustain the current level of public sector employment. I would be interested in EF's opinion on these bailouts.

ParkRunner

SkepticOne wrote: »

Unfortunately with things like the builder bailout and other supports to the property market there may not be the money to sustain the current level of public sector employment. I would be interested in EF's opinion on these bailouts.

I am totally opposed to the bailout of the property market. If the government really wants to help first time buyers they should let the market forces adjust naturally. (The money they were going to put into the banks and/or spend on home choice loans and the like should be invested in infrastructure...or civil service benchmarking pay rises :P). Civil servants are also being hit though by the recession with no prospect of promotion and a pay freeze now for the next year. I do agree that the HSE needs to be dramatically curtailed regarding staff numbers but I think the civil service is taking a disproportionate level of criticism now.

SimpleSam06

EF wrote: »

I cant argue with your statistics but the private sector couldnt have cared less about these statistics when the banks were handing out exorbitant loans to people and the general consensus was that the economy was on the gravy train.

To be honest lots of people cared a great deal about them, they were just drowned out by the nationwide choir singing from the "you can't lose on property" hymnsheet. Besides, if you know a bit about my posting history, you'd know that the banks and property developers would be coming out the far side a lot worse off than the public sector.

EF wrote: »

In my own opinion I agree that the surplus cash could have been better spent on infrastructure and education rather than administration. Dan Murphy represents the lower and average payscale end of the civil service so I think he has every right to represent this group who also have the everyday struggles to face.

He should be ashamed of himself trying to compare the positions of one of the best paid public sectors in the world with the plight of Jews in the holocaust. He most certainly doesn't have the right to do that.

latenia

Public Servants pay taxes (in full)

Apart from the ones who don't pay PRSI, which is anyone who joined before 1995.

have to commute to work

And get free parking, easy access to the tax deduction scheme as well as generous mileage allowances on the job.

Like everyone else, they have to pay for crèches,

Does everyone else have access to the government subsidised creches?

The jig is up for the nonsense that goes on in the civil service. And before you accuse me of being some kind of elitist, I used to be a civil servant myself. I just didn't bother going in anymore after being left for two months without a job after restructuring. It was another two months before anyone realised I was gone.

SkepticOne

EF wrote: »

I am totally opposed to the bailout of the property market. If the government really wants to help first time buyers they should let the market forces adjust naturally.

I would tend to agree with that.

So far no one seems to have any worthwhile argument in favour of the developer digouts. I wonder does anyone have anything to say in defence of them.

gurramok

SkepticOne wrote: »

So far no one seems to have any worthwhile argument in favour of the developer digouts. I wonder does anyone have anything to say in defence of them.

Very true. I thought mrgaa1 was an advocate but he/she hasn't come back to answer our questions.

It's just a sad way in this country that it takes a group of non-aligned citizens to make that EU complaint when no political party or interest group no matter how much they screamed about budget cutbacks never once mentioned it.

It was only highlighted in 2 tv programs on RTE/TV3 and on the radio and the reps who supported it had not a leg to stand on when challenged by respected economists.

ParkRunner

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Besides, if you know a bit about my posting history, you'd know that the banks and property developers would be coming out the far side a lot worse off than the public sector.

He should be ashamed of himself trying to compare the positions of one of the best paid public sectors in the world with the plight of Jews in the holocaust. He most certainly doesn't have the right to do that.

I do indeed know they are, a few of my friends in the private sector have been made redundant recently. Luckily they have not got mortgages to pay off but it is still a very demoralising situation to be facing..depending on circumstances/goals etc. The rewards were there in the private sector during the early years of this decade in terms of all sorts of bonuses, the rewards are there now in the public sector in terms of job security so you win some you lose some.

I dont think he was comparing public servants to jews in fairness!

ParkRunner

latenia wrote: »

Apart from the ones who don't pay PRSI, which is anyone who joined before 1995.



And get free parking, easy access to the tax deduction scheme as well as generous mileage allowances on the job.



Does everyone else have access to the government subsidised creches?

The jig is up for the nonsense that goes on in the civil service. And before you accuse me of being some kind of elitist, I used to be a civil servant myself. I just didn't bother going in anymore after being left for two months without a job after restructuring. It was another two months before anyone realised I was gone.

Those who joined pre 1995 are on a lower pay rate to those who joined post 1995 so there isnt much of a difference! In the public sector State cars are reserved for ministers and one or two very senior positions. Company cars were there to be snapped up in the boom times in the private sector! Is it such a bad thing to have affordable creches and a half decent pension system?

SimpleSam06

gurramok wrote: »

It's just a sad way in this country that it takes a group of non-aligned citizens to make that EU complaint when no political party or interest group no matter how much they screamed about budget cutbacks never once mentioned it.

I think it was in Victor's sig, something along the lines of "the only thing that has ever brought real change is a small group of concerned citizens". As true as ever. I don't know why you're complaining that nobody is arguing with you!

EF wrote: »

The rewards were there in the private sector during the early years of this decade in terms of all sorts of bonuses

No they weren't. They never were. This is not just an illusion, its been parroted by the public sector so often thats its actually become a stereotype.

So the Taoiseach recognises the need for reform despite he and everyone else on the public payroll plus all retirees getting special payments in respect of what was laughingly called benchmarking - a system that had its genesis during the brief period of dot-com hysteria when public sector unions had sold Ahern on the yarn that a few high profile stories of high-tech entrepreneurs making a killing, suggested that private sector workers were in clover compared with their brethren in the public sector.

The private sector and public sector were at pay parity back in 1996, read the above article for more details on the ensuing events.

EF wrote: »

the rewards are there now in the public sector in terms of job security so you win some you lose some.

Now I know you did read the article I posted, so I don't see how you can make a statement like that.

EF wrote: »

I dont think he was comparing public servants to jews in fairness!

He was also comparing sentiments against the public sector to racism by anti-immigrant groups. Anyone that reads his speech will be laughing him off the stage, tbh.

ParkRunner

Im going from my own experience from working in the private sector previously regarding bonuses. I myself got bonuses in the private sector which were either performance related for working on a project or just an annual Xmas bonus. The levels of bonuses given out during the boom times in the private sector were multiples of anything given out in the public sector, surely you cant disagree. There are no christmas bonuses, performance related bonuses or the like in the public sector except for those in the highest positions..some of which I disagree with also (eg Brendan Drumm).

The private sector should look at their own role in contributing towards the current economic climate before trying to put a disproportionate amount of blame on the public sector. The rule book was thrown out regarding handing out mortgages in the past few years with the aim of making extraordinary profits. The councils were no better in re-zoning land at the drop of a hat and thankfully this has been stopped. Accountability is what is needed, not a harsh damning of the civil service. The fatcat bankers arent exactly suffering for their contribution to the current situation!

SimpleSam06

EF wrote: »

Im going from my own experience from working in the private sector previously regarding bonuses. I myself got bonuses in the private sector which were either performance related for working on a project or just an annual Xmas bonus.

On the other hand, anecdotally speaking, I have worked in more jobs than most people, at every level from shop floor sweeper to CEO, and I have never received a bonus. The quantifiable facts are as outlined above, and there really is no place to hide from that. Reports of giant bonuses being handed out to bankers are in no way representative of the private sector as a whole.

EF wrote: »

The private sector should look at their own role in contributing towards the current economic climate before trying to put a disproportionate amount of blame on the public sector.

The blame doesn't lie with the public sector for the current economic woes. However the public sector as it stands is a byproduct of the boom times, and will drag the nation further into penury unless its reined in rapidly. Besides you are talking about the private sector as if it were a rival gang - the private sector is the economy, thats what pays for everything.

EF wrote: »

The rule book was thrown out regarding handing out mortgages in the past few years with the aim of making extraordinary profits. The councils were no better in re-zoning land at the drop of a hat and thankfully this has been stopped. Accountability is what is needed, not a harsh damning of the civil service. The fatcat bankers arent exactly suffering for their contribution for the current situation!

All of the issues you raised here can be directly linked to government regulations or lack thereof. If accountability is brought to play, the first ones that will suffer will be the public sector.

ParkRunner

You have never ever received a bonus of any type in the private sector? Can I ask what industries this relates to? The private sector may pay for everything but when they start acting recklessly everyone pays for it! The government are held accountable in every election and it is looking increasingly likely that this will be happening sooner rather than later. Individual public servants are being held increasingly accountable with the introduction of PMDS and voluntary redundancies will undoubtedly be coming in very shortly, as well as a pay pause for those on high wages. There are a few agencies that need to be reined in without a doubt but short of adding to the expanding list of people on the dole queues I dont see what more can be done.

Firetrap

People who work in the public sector don't exist in a vaccuum. They pay taxes (and since lots of people were taken on after 1995 - they pay PRSI as well). They pay mortgages. They don't exist on thin air - they shop in the same stores as everyone else and pay VAT.

Yes, I do agree that there are people who could be done without but advocating sacking everyone is a bit simplistic IMHO. The public sector is a broad church - it's not just paper shufflers.

SimpleSam06

EF wrote: »

You have never ever received a bonus of any type in the private sector? Can I ask what industries this relates to?

Quite a few.

EF wrote: »

The private sector may pay for everything but when they start acting recklessly everyone pays for it!

This seems to be the heart of the problem when dealing with the public sector, there is a very us-vs-them attitude. Which is exactly why people so out of touch with reality shouldn't have any say in executive decision making at the governmental level. There is no one "private sector". Its a vast spectrum of businesses and people ranging from pig farmers to corporate information brokerages, and everything in between, plus a hell of a lot more. The mysterious "private sector" didn't start acting recklessly, the banking sector did, egged on by a willing government.

The public sector on the other hand is a centrally controlled and directed group that may be referred to as a semi uniform bloc without too much fear. And it must not be allowed to continue in its present course.

EF wrote: »

There are a few agencies that need to be reined in without a doubt but short of adding to the expanding list of people on the dole queues I dont see what more can be done.

Given half a chance, I won't be long showing you. I don't expect to win any debates with you, purely because its impossible to convince people to act against what they perceive as being their own best interests, even if it damns the rest of us, and even if they are wrong. Unless you have something new to add, I'll consider this discussion done, as pointless circular debates with zealots are not really of much interest.

Firetrap wrote: »

People who work in the public sector don't exist in a vaccuum. They pay taxes (and since lots of people were taken on after 1995 - they pay PRSI as well). They pay mortgages. They don't exist on thin air - they shop in the same stores as everyone else and pay VAT.

The same money that they pay in taxes is being paid to them from the tax coffers. Its a net loss, as I pointed out. A required net loss, but still.

Firetrap wrote: »

Yes, I do agree that there are people who could be done without but advocating sacking everyone is a bit simplistic IMHO.

Well when you find someone that was advocating that, let me know.