Should Mary Harney resign?

JP Liz

Well should Mary Harney resign?

nhughes100

Of course she should, she should have never been re-appointed to health given the PD's decimation on the last election and she's had long enough to make an improvement that hasn't happened.

I'd like to build Rome in a day.

There are many many improvements in the health service by the way.
They just don't get reported in the media so no fan fare.

Equally there are many many disgracefull ineptitudes left hardly checked. Why?
You try talk to the unions about cutting the decades of bloat and ineffeciencies and see what happens.They'll strike and the whole thing will halt then.

Asking a Minister to resign when up against the like of that is about as usefull as repeatedly telling a dog to sit when it's already sitting.

This government has 4 more years to run.
After that time,It should be enough time to see if their great co location plan is working.
It's then I'll pass some judgement not now.

nhughes100

Who's trying to build Rome in a day? They've had 10+years with Harney in government in for all of that. She's had long enough, she is a tired outdated politician who should decide to spend more time with her family or persuing other interests.

gandalf

Unfortunately the politician and political party we need to sort out the Health Service (and the whole Civil Service!) doesn't exist. A lot of admin people need to be removed, people like the middle managers who were guaranteed jobs when the HSE was formed even though they no longer had any function. That happened under Mary's reign I believe.

To the original question yes Harney in an ideal world should be well gone, she has failed and failed miserably imho. The bad news is who replaces her, one of the incompetents from Fianna Fail or worse one of the lightweights from the Greens.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd like to build Rome in a day.

How many people died while rome was been built? How many billions were wasted?

There are many many improvements in the health service by the way.
They just don't get reported in the media so no fan fare.

Yes you are right improvements have been made just way too slow and with way too much money wasted.

Equally there are many many disgracefull ineptitudes left hardly checked. Why?
You try talk to the unions about cutting the decades of bloat and ineffeciencies and see what happens.They'll strike and the whole thing will halt then.

Strong Goverance over the past 15 years could have sorted that out and imo most of the problems aren't with the front end staff but the over administration and layers of managment.

Asking a Minister to resign when up against the like of that is about as usefull as repeatedly telling a dog to sit when it's already sitting.

Well Ms Harney has not brought the changes she has promised, imo its time an elected member of the largest Government party took over and FF took responsibility for the state of the health system rather than leave it to a party that will cease to exist in the next month

This government has 4 more years to run.
After that time,It should be enough time to see if their great co location plan is working.
It's then I'll pass some judgement not now.

They have had 15 years and huge amounts of money to sort out the health system if they haven't done it within that time with huge resources its very hard to see them doing in the next 4 years during a climate of cut backs.

MRSA rates have increased over and over during the past 15 years this is one single failure that has costs endless lives and could have been tackled as other countries have shown, FF and the PD's have failed the people of this state, our health service serves the same number of people as Manchester does and yet after billions of Euro and 15 years our service still has many serious issues.

oscarBravo

JP Liz, add your own thoughts to the topic per the forum rules.

nesf

gandalf wrote: »

Unfortunately the politician and political party we need to sort out the Health Service (and the whole Civil Service!) doesn't exist. A lot of admin people need to be removed, people like the middle managers who were guaranteed jobs when the HSE was formed even though they no longer had any function. That happened under Mary's reign I believe.

When I think about the HSE, I'm always reminded of what the guy who set up the NHS said after people asked him how he managed to get the doctors to agree to losing private practice, his answer was "I stuffed their mouths with gold". Except nowadays other professional classes (i.e. admin) have managed to secure enough power to force similar deals.

enda1

Villain wrote: »

They have had 15 years and huge amounts of money to sort out the health system if they haven't done it within that time with huge resources its very hard to see them doing in the next 4 years during a climate of cut backs.

Harney was minister of ETaE for most of this time.

Maybe a climate of cutbacks is just what we need when looking for public opinion and labour court/justification for cutting the fat in the HSE?

enda1

enda1 wrote: »

Harney was minister of ETaE for most of this time.

Maybe a climate of cutbacks is just what we need when looking for public opinion and labour court/justification for cutting the fat in the HSE?

I agree.
I also agree with Gandalf's opinion that there just isn't a politician around who can cure the rot.
If you resurrected padre pio and put him in charge,you'd have the same empty idealists* calling for resignations.

* people with no solutions or blind to the stubborn nature of the status quo bloat.

An example of that status quo bloat in action was of course,the fact that when the HSE was set up...it was a good idea in principle but the poor fceckers who set it up had their hands tied behind their back trying for union agreement and ergo let the unions castrate it with bloat and jobs for the boys.

brianthebard

If she goes, some FF'er will replace her. No change occurs. Not that I like her or her politics mind, but at this stage we may as well agree that they are FF's politics too.

jim o doom

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd like to build Rome in a day.

There are many many improvements in the health service by the way.
They just don't get reported in the media so no fan fare.

Equally there are many many disgracefull ineptitudes left hardly checked. Why?
You try talk to the unions about cutting the decades of bloat and ineffeciencies and see what happens.They'll strike and the whole thing will halt then.

Asking a Minister to resign when up against the like of that is about as usefull as repeatedly telling a dog to sit when it's already sitting.

This government has 4 more years to run.
After that time,It should be enough time to see if their great co location plan is working.
It's then I'll pass some judgement not now.

I love these arguments about the great advancements that don't get fanfared. Who cares about advancements, it's about patients & results and the standard of the hospitals. I was in hopsital with a broken leg - emergency room gave me two weak painkillers & I was there for over 9 hours. They tried to set my leg with the second shot of painkillers not even kicked in. The nurses were amazing, the hopsital was a joke & I got an mrsa type infection in wounds on my leg.
Look at our heart disease rates & how many people our hospitals save compared to most of the western world, same goes especially for strokes - we have a significantly higher rate of death or major loss of body movement etc for people suffering from stroke.
Look how many people have to deal with MRSA infections because our hospitals arn't even clean. I lost my ma to a minor cancer because internal stitching burst. could they not even do that right?
they saved my da from cancer in the mater PRIVATE. personally I think if he was public he would have DIED.
The health system here is crap & only people who have had REAL first hand knowledge with a serious illness etc of it will ever truly realise that, the ministers never will because they can get flown to any part of the world for healthcare unlike the rest of the people.

I realise harney can only work with what she is given, but with the views of the PD's regarding privatisation, I think they wanted the public system to die badly so they could have the system they wanted (as did ff).
On that basis I think Harney should not only resign, but with most of FF and any previous PD's, I think she should be blindfolded, put up against a wall and shot to goddamn death.

ChocolateSauce

I've always thought so.

jim o doom

jim o doom wrote: »

I lost my ma to a minor cancer

I'm very sorry to hear that.

because internal stitching burst. could they not even do that right?

It's not fair despite your understandable feelings to condemn based on that.

they saved my da from cancer in the mater PRIVATE. personally I think if he was public he would have DIED.

Maybe.
However I was at a friends funeral(Cancer again ) in the last week whose wife had the height of praise at the funeral for wonderfull care and attention in a public hospital.

The health system here is crap & only people who have had REAL first hand knowledge with a serious illness etc of it will ever truly realise that, the ministers never will because they can get flown to any part of the world for healthcare unlike the rest of the people.

It's creaking at the seams yes but it's not absolute crap.It's crap in parts.
Theres actually a very good team involved in streamlining and improving the cancer care service now.It's one of the things that I'll pass judgement on in 4 years time albeit too late.

I realise harney can only work with what she is given, but with the views of the PD's regarding privatisation, I think they wanted the public system to die badly so they could have the system they wanted (as did ff).
On that basis I think Harney should not only resign, but with most of FF and any previous PD's, I think she should be blindfolded, put up against a wall and shot to goddamn death.

To be honest,theres no evidence that facilitating a demand for private healthcare is to be at the cost of the demise of the public system.
Thats just a lot of blah from politicians who are crowing to a particular constituency in my opinion and collumnists who need something to write about.
In theory it actually seems to be for the good of the public health system ie free'ing up beds for people who don't have the VHI.
At present hospitals actually make public patients wait because their budgets depend on the income from private bed "rental" in the public hospitals.
Again I may be a tad sceptical given the bloat I've spoken about (bloat that seems to union blessed have a nver ending capacity to soak up the type of savings co location is supposed to render) but I'll wait to give judgement on this particular policy.
I won't be cowtowing in blinkered fashion to the collumnists and the politics of it all.

JP Liz

jim o doom wrote: »

I love these arguments about the great advancements that don't get fanfared. Who cares about advancements, it's about patients & results and the standard of the hospitals. I was in hopsital with a broken leg - emergency room gave me two weak painkillers & I was there for over 9 hours. They tried to set my leg with the second shot of painkillers not even kicked in. The nurses were amazing, the hopsital was a joke & I got an mrsa type infection in wounds on my leg.
Look at our heart disease rates & how many people our hospitals save compared to most of the western world, same goes especially for strokes - we have a significantly higher rate of death or major loss of body movement etc for people suffering from stroke.
Look how many people have to deal with MRSA infections because our hospitals arn't even clean. I lost my ma to a minor cancer because internal stitching burst. could they not even do that right?
they saved my da from cancer in the mater PRIVATE. personally I think if he was public he would have DIED.
The health system here is crap & only people who have had REAL first hand knowledge with a serious illness etc of it will ever truly realise that, the ministers never will because they can get flown to any part of the world for healthcare unlike the rest of the people.

I realise harney can only work with what she is given, but with the views of the PD's regarding privatisation, I think they wanted the public system to die badly so they could have the system they wanted (as did ff).
On that basis I think Harney should not only resign, but with most of FF and any previous PD's, I think she should be blindfolded, put up against a wall and shot to goddamn death.

I am sorry for your loss

I dont think Harney cares much about public care patients.

BTW i do think she should resign

gandalf

One thing I will say from experience with family members in recent years is the front line staff in the HSE are wonderful, they work in some cases in unbelievably bad conditions that a lot of us would walk away from if we were in their position. They are also the first to be effected if cut backs occur, not the bloated unionised permanent admin workers. Can anyone see anything wrong with this?

It can and it should be reversed. The admin function has to be rationalised dramatically, no more jobs for life people. If you are needed you work, if not you are removed.

Also before people jump in I am not talking about all those would are on temporary contracts in the HSE or the Civil Service who do get let go when there are freezes or rationalisation, I am talking about the dead wood who hold down permanent positions in the HSE (and Civil Service) who are blocking jobs from people who want to work and want to make a difference to their country and the service they provide to their citizens.

McArmalite

JP Liz wrote: »

Well should Mary Harney resign?

To be honest , I don't think it would matter.

nhughes100

It would matter to the people in the news lately down in Ennis, it would matter to anyone who knows anyone who has got MRSA. Harney was Tanaiste for most of her term in office so even when she was Minister for EnE she was well aware of the shortcomings in the health service. She has persued a privatisation agenda which very few people in the country want for health. She actively wanted the Health portfolio, she couldn't even get people to wash their hands in hospitals. She is single handedly responsible for the biggest quango in the state(HSE), her favorite answer to any question is "that's a matter for the HSE" - so why do we even need a minister for health?

For the PPars project alone she should have gone, now we've had scandel after scandel after scandel, no new consultants contract, nurses still earning crap money and more chance of catching a disease in hospital then out of it.

To the union bashers - nurses are in unions too. It's the pen pushers in the HSE that need to be shown the door. The minister for health has the authority to remove a permenant public sector worker.

gandalf

nhughes100 wrote: »

To the union bashers - nurses are in unions too. It's the pen pushers in the HSE that need to be shown the door. The minister for health has the authority to remove a permenant public sector worker.

If you notice what I wrote I have acknowledged the hard work of the front line staff and even though they are unionised it would appear to me a humble private sector worker that they are normally the ones sacrificed when the axe falls during cutbacks.

The unions that need to be crushed are the ones protecting the idle "permanent public sector workers" who aren't pulling their weight. That imho is Harneys biggest failure instead of the HSE dramatically reducing admin numbers they have increased, which given the duplication of function from the Health Boards to the a single HSE is staggering.

Time Magazine

JP Liz wrote: »

I dont think Harney cares much about public care patients.

That's not fair. I'm no PD or fan of the state of the health system, but it's clear she cares a lot about the health system.

You don't take a job like that for the money. And she sure as hell didn't take it for the praise.

Agent J

Harney should resign before she does any more damage to the health system.
Shes been there for ... 3-4 years and in that time things seem to have gotten worse not better.

She made the HSE to replace the regionalisation of the Healthboards and now we are looking at the HSE have different regions...

It reminds me of a Dilbert Cartoon in which someone centrialisies a decentral system to improve then does the exact opposite once its complete. Nothing gets done but it looks good.

Harney/PDs are/were a s**t screen for FF and the HSE is a s**t screen for Harney.

This co location Idea is terrible and should be stopped asap.

sondal

Mary Harney is too stubborn and intransigent to listen to others. She knows best and even if she is isolated she will never admit her failures, instead she will blame the old health boards, and that she is making progress. It does seem that that she got distracted by all the fancy private healthcare centres while visiting both Canada and South Africa a few years ago. Anyone can log on the the Irish Medical New on line and see her cutting the ribbons of some new 25 bed private clinic one week then some other top of the range surgery the next. Harney make represent her Clondalkin constuencey voters at elections, but seems to have too close a relationsip with other recent private healthcare clinics whom have set up less than twenty miles away.
I feel very very sorry for all those posters here who have suffered because of Harney and Drumms myopic "I know best" position on Irelands Healthcare reforms. All our mothers and fathers have paid the taxes all their working lives and here now in 2010, Harney wants to organise arcane centres of excellence. John Crown put it straight this morning on RTE radio 1, saying that there is not even two bricks put together.
By the time any of these builldings are up and running Harney will be in Brussels in my opinion, then she will retire to her beacon style clinic in Boston or Toronto. I hope her own health suffers then, the cold hearted arrogant woman that she is.

sondal

sondal wrote: »

John Crown put it straight this morning on RTE radio 1, saying that there is not even two bricks put together.

Thats because we have an arcane planning process... [carrickmines M50 anyone?] It's nothing to do with the idea or whether it will work.

By the time any of these builldings are up and running Harney will be in Brussels in my opinion, then she will retire to her beacon style clinic in Boston or Toronto. I hope her own health suffers then, the cold hearted arrogant woman that she is.

I generally consider posters who come out with Bile like that, rather than logic,to have invalidated their opinion.

Overheal

JP Liz wrote: »

Well should Mary Harney resign?

She should at least enroll on the subway diet.

sondal

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats because we have an arcane planning process... [carrickmines M50 anyone?] It's nothing to do with the idea or whether it will work.


I generally consider posters who come out with Bile like that, rather than logic,to have invalidated their opinion.

ok the comment about Harneys health was just mouthing off. She does not look well. I Seem to remember meeting Tom Parlin canvessing at a train station the day before the general election. I asked for a few minutes as he was surrounded by ther housewife brigade. He seemed surprised at how others are fully aware of the PD's and their vested interested in private healthcare companies. He asked for my details as well as my vote. He was involved with the flagrant rezoning of land in the midlands too. Interesting that he moved sideways to the CIF the following day leaving Mary Harney alone in PD wilderness. Check out the newish Health place in Kildare and you will see that our minister is somehow involved. As for the arcane planning process that is misleading and out of date comment. The problem is not with the people who judge the applications rather those who wabnt to cut every corner to do things for as cheap as possible. The co located hospitals is a free site. The dozens of other private operators now in the smaller primary care applications are also to blame not the planning process itself. Take a good look at all the applications that are at An Bord Pleanala, and you will see the some applicants dont comply with the development plan guidelines, have huge shortfalls in car parking then appeal the contibutions with a favourable granted decision with planning approval.

lostexpectation

David McWilliams wrote: »

That's not fair. I'm no PD or fan of the state of the health system, but it's clear she cares a lot about the health system.

You don't take a job like that for the money. And she sure as hell didn't take it for the praise.

she only cares about a system for those that can afford to pay extra for it.

dresden8

I'm surprised that nobody has made the connection between Harney and this crowd.

http://www.mrpakinman.ie/services.asp

What do these people do?

Healthcare
MRPA KINMAN Communications has one of the most experienced healthcare communication teams in the country working with policy, institutional and marketing interests.

On the policy side, the firm works with leading health sector representative bodies such as the Hospital Consultants Association and the Irish Pharmaceutical Union.

On the institutional side the firm works with a number of private hospitals including Peamount Hospital and the Royal Hospital Donnybrook.

And on the product side, the firm works with Wyeth, one of the largest and most successful pharmaceutical companies in the world.

Patient support groups with whom the firm works include the Post Polio Support Group and Spinal Injuries Ireland.

While the requirements of each client will vary, each enjoys a tailored programme supported by an experienced team led by one of our partners.

What is the connection with Mary Harney you might ask?

http://www.mrpakinman.ie/about_brian.asp

Her husband is the effing Chairman of the company!!!!!!!!!!!

Does nobody know what the fack is going on in this country?

Plainly a massive conflict of interest and nobody freaking notices.

I give up.

Time Magazine

lostexpectation wrote: »

she only cares about a system for those that can afford to pay extra for it.

Ludicrous. Why did she support risk equalisation all the way to the Supreme Court?

Begob

dresden8 wrote: »

I'm surprised that nobody has made the connection between Harney and this crowd.

http://www.mrpakinman.ie/services.asp

What do these people do?



What is the connection with Mary Harney you might ask?

http://www.mrpakinman.ie/about_brian.asp

Her husband is the effing Chairman of the company!!!!!!!!!!!

Does nobody know what the fack is going on in this country?

Plainly a massive conflict of interest and nobody freaking notices.

I give up.

Lol and your point is caller? How plainly is it a conflict of interest?
I suggest you buy a dictionary too and look up the word massive.

You've mentioned possibly 0.1% of the business of her husbands company with no recourse to examples.I'll give you one though that shows you are talking nonsense.
I'd hardly call this governments relationship with hospital consultants very cosy for example.
I suggest what you have here is a very very very poor ct.

Next you'll be telling us that theres a conflict of interest with farmer td's or publican t.d's or T.d's that have held down any job or their husbands or wives that have.Lets include the rest of their family and close friends while we are at it and the 7th relation of a 7th relation..

lostexpectation

David McWilliams wrote: »

Ludicrous. Why did she support risk equalisation all the way to the Supreme Court?

she's not taoiseach.

nhughes100

In fairness all TD's are supposed to disclose information like this, maybe she has?