Starting & Running a Bar

ashman007

I am looking to do the same thing my self taking over a lease on a bar..Looked at two places already and even though they are fine premises the rent they ask for is way too high then they want a hugh deposit where you will prob have to pum 10-15 thous to clean up some of the places

They dont make it easy for you to keep a pub going thats for sure

JohnThomas09

Firstly id like to say fairplay to the OP,theres not many people thinking of starting out in the business world in these tough econmic times.I agree with you that the Pub trade is still going well.

1)I think in the big cities Dublin,Cork,Limerick,Galway,its hard to make money as there is a lot of competition and rates are high.I think you best bet would be in towns like Westport or Carrick-On-Shannon,these towns are packed every weekend with Stags and Hens.These folk spend some money when their out but they only want to drink in young hip bars not dingy old pubs.This is one target audience.

2)Another possibilty is the Pub in the rural town eg:Ballyconnell,Balinamore etc etc.These towns have low rates and when the young single lads go out they go all out.In towns like this you will have a steady crowd of Friday night,packed of a Saturday night and you have a crowd of all day drinkers of a Sunday and even the odd Monday.The great thing about these towns in you dont have to invest that much in you Bar,make sure you have a good jukebox with the lastest songs,a Dartboard and a Pool Table but make sure you have the right temperment for this kind of crowd.Eg:when they start dropping glasses for fun dont lose the head or you will lose your crowd but trust me these type of people spend a lot.

Please let me know who you get on on your business venture and if it goes well ill even get a crew of lads to go to the town for a weekend.

Bicky

The idea/Opportunity has stemmed from observation lately. We've noticed that while the Country is going through a rough patch, the one Industry that doesn't seem to be suffering is the Bar trade.

I have been serving drink for ten years and I have to disagree. The trade has been suffering badly for the last two years and it continues to get worse every month.

Every weekend our local Bars are still packed to the Rafters. People seem to always have money to socialize at weekends.

I live and work in portlaoise, which is a typical provincial town. The bars are still busy on a sat night, but not half as busy as they were three years ago and the mid week is non existent. Labourers who were on building sites earning 700+ a week would literally throw money over the counter, now they get 200 on the scratcher.

Specialized beers

People just dont drink them. I have worked in bars which stocked Erdinger, Hoogarden, Tyskie(to name a few) and they were a novelty for the odd beer enthusiast but that was about it. People dont like change.

I mailed Diageo recently for instance to get an idea of the price of Kegs etc. I was told they dont give out that info. unless i had an account with them.

Heineken will cost you 140 euro for a 50 litre keg ex vat. 50 litres is technically 88 pints or 1.60 euo per pint before you factor in waste, lots of it.
When you pull a pint the head can often foam up and pour over the edge. The amount of waste this way is not to be underestimated, especially with inexperienced barstaff or those who just dont give a **** if you are not right there watching them. Some customers will refuse the first pint out of the keg, and the last. Some customers will refuse a pint for arbitrary reasons such as a bad taste, smell or whatever other reason. Then of course you will have staff who steal from you and those who give out free drink, that is almost unavoidable.
For these variables waste can vary wildy from bar to bar, depending on the management style. Make no mistake that one of the keys to profit is keeping wastage as low as possible.
Dont for a second think that 4.50 (presuming that is what you will charge for a pint) less 1.60 can give you 2.90 profit. I dont believe you do, but that is the kind of irrational math which you will contend with as your customers demand free drink and your staff moan that you are a tight bastard.

Tbh, i do believe in my work ethic & drive to succeed,

Fantastic, because this is what you are going to need, and if you really have it then you will succeed. Reading back over this post it seems negative. I had not intendid it to be that way. Just trying to give my opinion, since I am in exactly the same boat as you and i plan on doing it within the next two years.
Good luck.

Bicky

I just remembered this old thread i seen on askaboutmoney. It is a very informative post, especially the parts about the cost of a SKY tv package. It is very very expensive.

more
and more

dshakey

<snip>

for used catering equipment?

GoneShootin

relax on the site pimping please dshakey - lest I deem you to be spamming! you wouldn't do that though would you.

thentertainer

Hi all,

I read this thread 4 months ago when I was planning on opening my own bar and I found it very enlightening but also a little discouraging so I thought I would drop back and throw in my 2 cents.

First I don't know how to do the "quote" thing so I'll just tap away.

I recall that some enlightened person mocked Scien's budget of 20k, stating that it couldn't be done for that money. It can!

Also with a bit of confidence it is amazing how far the breweries are willing to go in order to get another outlet open.

I agree that getting the travelling out of the way is the best course of action. Because the most valuable lesson I have learned is that the novelty of owning your own watering hole fades extremely quickly when the bills start rolling in and you need to know that you really want to do this! Having done my travelling and now well settled this is the best move I have made. That having been said I enjoy the business end of things and went in with my eyes open.

My opinion on this topic is this, if you want this badly enough and you are prepared to make it the centre of your universe then you can do anything you wish. I dont mean to sound to much like a self help book but the fact is I have gone through the s**t that you will have to go through and come out the other side. When I say s**t I mean it, apart from never seeing my family and the missus looking at me with sad eyes every time I had to head out the door again, I also knelt on a razor blade during the renovation and got 6 stitches for my trouble then this weekend I got bitten by a tramp of a dog whilst cleaning the windows

Still worth it though

Anyway best of luck to anyone who reads this thread and if there is anything I can help you with drop me a line.

Rex Manning

2 websites worth a look - won't give the full links, in case of accusations of spamming but they're easy enough find with google

the publican - site with info on different aspects of the pub trade, a bit top heavy on articles that are nothing more than adverts really, and plenty of ranting in the blogs about the smoking ban and cheap beer in the supermarkets. It's a UK site but some of the stuff will still be relevant

morning advertiser - similar enough to the site above but a bit better and decent/informative forums (folk on this site don't tend to rant as much).

I worked for a brewery and when I started I found these sites fairly useful to get a bit of an understanding about brewery/pub industry. While a lot of the stuff is very UK-based (legislation, tax, etc) some stuff I'd say is applicable to irish pubs?

The Apprentice

Just a few quick points and totally not discourging you at the moment im gonna write some bullet points if i can im sick and dont really have a moment to review the quotes etc ^^

Ive worked in bars for years and i do know them inside out and am currently working on a project with my partner who is a bar manager on a premises in very near future.

Insurance?? 20k what clown made that figure up .. more like 2-4k depending on variables

Staff which was mentioned.. ANother clown on the door and u will loose more custom than u can attract which wasnt mentioned was good bar men/women with pioneer badges en tow.. reliable at least :P

To kit out a standard sized bar that would fill lets say 300 patrons about 5k was the figure 2 years ago.. im sure its around the same.

If persay u obtained a lease in the morning it would take 6 min 8 weeks max to get u in the door and opened which would barely get u in to have some fun for christmas.

Cheap beer does and ive seen draw in the dregs of society so not always a good move but to survive this recession u need some bells and whilstles.
Full price booze depending on variables again is in the region of 60% profit
Cheap 3 euro pints is about 35-40% maybe.. it will just about keep your doors open if its rammed every fri and sat night.

If its not u better have a dam good day trade and be prepared to work 100 hrs a week and be dam happy. Oh and be prepared to make no profit and not get paid. AND before anyone says that bull**** its true either the above or go to the wire

Food is always a plus even light snacks would suffice just to keep your doors opened till this ****e blows over.

Cash your looking at to lease would,d prob need in the region of 20-30k to open a doors of a bar.
You,d be heading towards the banks with a decent business plan written professionally by bob the accountant to get a loan of 50-60k.. 30 which would include everything including paint job, stock , tills , some cash overdraft etc. Depending on the terms condtions u might be handing over 30-40k as a deposit on the premises.
1000 euro roughly a week rent.

If i were to give my opinion and i will ..
I,d say get the ball rolling for next year. Do not try it this christmas because this county aint over the worst of it yet and opening a bar in such a short space of time with little knowledge might not be the wisest in this economy.

Ive hundreds of ideas for my project but feel i would be giving a way secrets if i posted them hear.

If u need prices from diageo let me know it isnt that u need.. its a miracle that the day u open the recession will blow over.

WIsh u the best with it anyway

bog master

Scien

I recently did up a business plan for a client planning to lease a pub in a small village in the midlands. Can give you prices on drink/profit margins etc. if you want to pm me.

Depending on the size of the pub, your initial stock could run between 7.5k to 10k.

kenon

In reference to specialized beers...

Bicky wrote: »

People just dont drink them. I have worked in bars which stocked Erdinger, Hoogarden, Tyskie(to name a few) and they were a novelty for the odd beer enthusiast but that was about it. People dont like change.

It depends on the bar. My local seems to do thriving business in specialized beers. Especially Erdinger (has its own large fridge which would be emptied nearly everynight). They have a beer menu with good descriptions, pictures and they lack the extortionate prices that some pubs charge for them.

This bar is open every night of the week and does good business Mon-thurs. I think this is due to the reputation of its bar food.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

thentertainer

Yes do leave it up. I found it very useful. It's extremely difficult to get any info on this topic. When I started investigating my project not even friends who own and run bars wanted to give me any info.

thentertainer

bog master wrote: »

Scien

I recently did up a business plan for a client planning to lease a pub in a small village in the midlands. Can give you prices on drink/profit margins etc. if you want to pm me.

Depending on the size of the pub, your initial stock could run between 7.5k to 10k.

Most suppliers will give you "week over week" credit if you talk nice to them. This at least gives you a chance to make something before you have to pay for initial stock. A week might seem inconsequential but it feels better paying a bill when the till is full

Rujib1

bog master wrote: »

Scien

I recently did up a business plan for a client planning to lease a pub in a small village in the midlands. Can give you prices on drink/profit margins etc. if you want to pm me.

Depending on the size of the pub, your initial stock could run between 7.5k to 10k.

Heard some boring old fart from vitners association being interviewd recently by George Hook on Newstalk. As I recall he said that typically the distribution of the over the counter price of a pint was approx 1/3 each to the bar, the brewery and the revenue.
So that should leave you with a 33% gross margin on liquor sales.

Guy I know has a pub. 70% of his net margin for the total business is from food. Breakfast, lunch and evening meals. He is concentrating more and more on the food side of the business as a result.

R1

JohnThomas09

Bicky wrote: »

Heineken will cost you 140 euro for a 50 litre keg ex vat.

hey,just wondering do you know what rate of VAT is charged on a Keg of Beer and whats the rate on Spirits/Alcopops?

DubTony

JohnThomas09 wrote: »

hey,just wondering do you know what rate of VAT is charged on a Keg of Beer and whats the rate on Spirits/Alcopops?

21.5% across the board.

JohnThomas09

DubTony wrote: »

21.5% across the board.

Thanks DubTony,i know that probably seemed like a stupid question but someone recently argued with me that spirits were charged at 15%,thanks for clearing that up.

JohnThomas09

I do always be keeping an eye on the Pub Trade.I have found this Thread very informative.

I was wondering if anyone who has started trading as a Publician in the
last year could post there story here(with the Mods permisson;)).

It would be interseting to see how you are doing and what problems you have been faced within a declining trade.

Sparkx

Dont quit at the first hurdle.I priced insurance for a Pub and i was given options to what cover i wanted.
I was going to start with cover for mysely and up to three tempory staff.
I wasnt taking cover for the stock of drink until id have a few quid behind me.
I got a Quote of around 1,800 for the year.
Think Big , talk small!

lenny1020

Darragh29 wrote: »

The only problem with the cheap drink is that I'd say there is a well understood relationship between the price of drink and the quality of customer you will get.

One area I think many pubs could improve upon, in particular this new trendy pub in my estate, is the staff they hire. There is nothing better than a friendly local that you feel welcome in. I know the pub in this estate are rubbing some respectable decent people up the wrong way and losing business by allowing one guy who works on the door to interrogate people before letting them in. The sad thing is that these guys are contracted from a security company. The staff that run the bar and the restaurant are terribly nice, but it's one muppet at the door that is getting the establishment a bad name and losing it business.

I saw this in action recently and it turned me off going there again, because I thought on another night I could have been at the end of this treatment and when you're putting anywhere up to 100 Euro behind the bar for a night of entertainment, you espect a bit of courtesy at the door.

I would imagine that a partnership in the Bar Trade is not a good idea.That is unless you are both prepared to stay outside the counter and appoint a manager .There are lots of things to do besides working behind the Bar ,Ie Promotion .Get your venue known .Set up a good website.Optimise it.Of course you need people.Location is huge.Go for a big venue in a good location .Little bars in provincial towns are not the way ,especially when there are two of you .Do food all day .The ideal venue will still cost you maybe 100,000 a year but its the way to go these days .Insurance is dear but seems to depend on the previous record of the premises for some strange reason .Good Luck.
30 years experience here.

Damo206

I have found this thread very helpfull, i am strongly thinking about opening a premises of my own location all good etc, th premises closed due to lack of interest from the previous owner and other things he wanted to do in buisness, I am trying to get an idea of what the price of esb and gas would cost me in order to do up my costs and see what my out going would be, Anyone any info the place would hold around 300 people will give you a rough idea of size not sure to use kitchen area just yet??

keyzar

fascinating thread on this. I had considered leasing a bar in 2007 however with the crash i thought it would be a case of wait and see. now my mind has returned to it, and given the state of the country, perhaps its just a swell given that leases / prices would have reduced significantly.

anyway, i've no experience of the pub trade, but i've long seen it as being complacent - along the lines of customer service etc that have already been talked about on this thread.

my thinking is to partner with a bar manager with more experience to make sure the logistics are looked after while i get up to speed. i can bring fresh ideas and look at the promotion and event management / entertainment side of the business.

i've a bit of capital to get going if the right opportunity arises. Probably not enough to buy a bar but to look at leasing, then from there i can see if this whole idea is feasible.

there's no question of my commitment. but if the project goes belly up my thinking is that i can take the hit, and then return to a similarly good job which i am in at the moment....

therefore, just to ask you knowledgeable folks ,rather than going to work in a bar first, whats the thoughts on getting an experienced bar manager in on the venture?

Any other thought greatly welcomed, especially re country vs city location, starting capital required etc.

thanks.

lenny1020

I think to keep the staff on their toes its important to hire a professional stocktaker to come in every two weeks or monthly.
All variances will show up and can then be sorted out before they get out of hand or cost a fortune.
These guys are not as expensive as people think.Spirits and draft beers can be measured accurately now by using spirit and keg scales.
Pubs with even moderate turnover can benefit from tight stock control.

Southsider1

Scien wrote: »

Aye, but the 20 to 40 yr old singletons are still going out every weekend.

Fri night & Sat night & Sunday is the real Goldmine.
I wonder could it be done to keep the 9-5 initially for financial backup and then open the bar at the Weekend.
It would be a hell of a lot of work but the potential benefits could be great.

I guess some early ideas would be a focus on a Differentiation strategy. No poker nights, no Kareoke or no old men sitting at the bar on a Saturday night at 10pm.
Vibrancy, Specialized beers, stylish decor, Funky smoking areas & Music that customers want to hear.

Two off the top of my head:

1. Cheap Drink. Everyone in Ireland loves a cheap drink. Everyone.

Page ad in local Media:
"Saturday Night @ The X Bar
All Pints & shots €3 all night"

2. Hot Barmaids.


Bar Full.

Are you serious? Really serious? Or just taking the p1ss? You haven't a hope!

Axwell

Southsider1 wrote: »

Are you serious? Really serious? Or just taking the p1ss? You haven't a hope!

He posted that on here over a yr and a half ago,hes prob doing something else by now :rolleyes:

Southsider1

Axwell wrote: »

He posted that on here over a yr and a half ago,hes prob doing something else by now :rolleyes:

Oops! Sorry, didn't see the date on it! He's probably got three or four pubs now just to prove me wrong!!:o

boyler3

Hi just wondering how did ye get on at opening the pub,,
my self and a friend are also thinking of doing the same,,and wondering on wat to do,if you could help out thank you

Countryboymike

Private me and I shall tell you anything you need to know guys

maygitchell

Heisenberg. wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Careful now before youre in trouble with the EAT