Neotion MPEG4 Cams - IDTV Ready List (NP4)

watty

I tested the Neotion nearly 2 year ago now.

It was an intersting idea, but bogged down by compatibility issues and transcoding quality. A decent setbox is now cheaper.

It does something a "real" cam doesn't really do.

Eclipsegr

In another forum I read that most of the issues are resolved if you upgrade the software of the tv... have been trying to find an upgrade for my tv, but can't find one...

All you have to do is to turn the tv off, insert the CIM, and turn the tv on, right? nothing else...?

I also thought of inserting it while my tv is on, but I kind of hesitate... don't want to mess up my tv... it's a very high tech tv, and I wouldn't want to take it to service for no reason!

If you know of anything else, please let me know...

PS: I know I have the solution of buying a box, but I'm trying to minimize the cables you can see around, and most importantly the remotes you can see on my coffee table! Got already 6 of them!!!

watty

A "box" is also the only way you are going to have recording.

I have had 3 sat recievers, DVD, VHS and Home Theater amp under TV and no cables visible. You can also get a universal learning remote to control everything.

eirman

Peddyr wrote: »

Hi Folks,
I wonder if anyone knows whether or not these cams will work in the Humax PVR9200T which is of course designed for the uk market?

Just reiterating this question... I would also like to know.

watty

If at all, poorly.

They have to decode the MPEG4 and re-encode as twice to three times bit rate MPEG2, in real time.

They can never do HD.

If there is any about the parameters to of the "transport stream"/"Channel" your box/tv firmware doesn't understand, then the Neotion cant' fix that.

It ONLY converts the MPEG4 --> MPEG2. The bitrate is rather high to reduce the difficulty of encoding. It also gets very hot.

This was originally developed for launch of French TNT pay channels. It seemed like a good idea at the time, nearly four year ago when announced. I've tested it and for all these reasons would not recommend it.

At this stage we are so close to official launch it's madness not to wait for official Soarview certified gear. The Neotion can't be as it has never worked in all TVs & setboxes even for TNT. It doesn't add any MHEG5 or any other compatibility. It's just a CAM (not needed) for PayTV card and a minimal MPEG4 to MPE2 Decoder/Encoder.

I tested the pocket Duo which has ethernet recording/playback. But because it's emulating a Cam, it can't playback unless you can tune a valid DTT channel!

Eclipsegr

My tv (Hitachi P50XR01) has a built-in hard drive, so I have no problem in recording anything I want.

Just can't make Neotion card work with my tv... I've called the dealer, the service, looked at all forums available... nothing... I guess another box and another remote on my coffee table:mad:

jaggiebunnet

Anchises wrote: »

I exchanged the Red Group A for a Yellow Group B antenna and I've now got perfect RTE1 / RTE2 / TG4 analogue -from the Glanmire local relay.

No sign of a digital signal when scanned - unfortunately

STB: I wonder if you've had a chance to look up the digital plan for the Glanmire relay station ?

A.

hi Anchises - just wondering where abouts in Glanmire are you and where did you get your aerial - going to pick up a group b one myself and just wondered if I can expect perfect quality (as opposed to almost watchable on the rabbits ears) - cheers

Anchises

Hi,

I'm in Meadowbrook. approx sea level

I got the antenna at Dwyers Electrical, Forge Hill....

They have all the stuff you might need

My picture is perfect - but only RTE1, RTE2, TG4 as I said.
There are no Digital through Glanmire relay , as far as I can tell.

And no idea when it will happen..

STB suggested he might be able to find out, if tests would start through Glamnmire

A

rsmike

Just popped a neotion mpeg4 card in my 2nd TV, its a Samsung LS20TDDSUV/EN, little 20" TV that Tesco were selling a year ago.

Works perfect, I was picking up the DTT audio and Channel list/EPG before slotting it in, so was fairly hopeful it would work.

Picture seems very good to me, way better than my analogue picture.

I accept a STB might be better, but the Neotion card is a nice cheapo option and no extra cables or boxes, GBP45.00 for the card on Ebay.

Peddyr

Peddyr wrote: »

Hi Folks,
I wonder if anyone knows whether or not these cams will work in the Humax PVR9200T which is of course designed for the uk market?

No one has answered this because probably no one has one.

I had a closer look at my 9200t today and discovered it has a cam slot and an ethernet port behind a front panel.
I have it a few years and never saw that before :o

Anyone any idea what mpeg4 to mpeg 2 cam might be ok for this?

Now that RTE are very kindly installing a tx at Arklow,I'm looking into this now.
The picture quality on the 9200T on my old 33" kitchen crt tv is perfect and having RTE in digital there would be nice

Any takers on this? Comments appreciated!

The slot looks wide-wider than a card slot on a sky box for instance.

watty

The Neotion MPEG4 cam is going to be ABSOLUTELY useless for Saorview/Irish TV because it can't EVER do HD. I have had this confirmed face to face with Neotion people.

RTE2 will be part time HD with NO SD stream.

From when the 2nd Mux starts there will be RTE1 & 2 (probably TG4 later) in HD, with NO SD stream. There is no space for simulcast.

If the TV is not HD, then you need an real HD set-box (AFAIK all will downsample to SCART for non-HD TVs.).

If the set-box not HD even if MPEG4 (Sagem Picnic) then it needs replaced.

A UK DVB-T2 Freeview HD box or TV should work. A regular Freeview TV or box, even with Neotion CAM will give no video when RTE is HD.


There is no possible MPEG4 to MPEG2 cam for HD, only SD as the HD bit rate is too high and can't fit Downsampling on board.

So basically watty all the mpeg 4 tv's now selling like hotcakes will need a cam or a new saorview decoder? They will be as useless as the mpeg2 tv's that came before them?

Only in Ireland :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I guess the same people who network planned mt leinster are involved in this farce?

The Cush

watty wrote: »

If the TV is not HD, then you need an real HD set-box (AFAIK all will downsample to SCART for non-HD TVs.).

Deleted User wrote: »

So basically watty all the mpeg 4 tv's now selling like hotcakes will need a cam or a new saorview decoder? They will be as useless as the mpeg2 tv's that came before them?

Is there SD-only MPEG-4 TVs on the market here? If so which TVs ?

watty

Deleted User wrote: »

So basically watty all the mpeg 4 tv's now selling like hotcakes will need a cam or a new saorview decoder? They will be as useless as the mpeg2 tv's that came before them?

Only in Ireland :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I guess the same people who network planned mt leinster are involved in this farce?

Never heard of an MPEG4 TV that isn't HD.

There are only a few non HD MPEG4 setboxes (Sagem Picnic) and MPEG4 converters (Maybe only Neotion and inherently not HD) that are on the market as early solution 3 or 4 years ago for start to MPEG4 non-HD payTV on TNT France and few other places.

No new setbox or TV product with MPEG4 that I know of doesn't do HD.

reslfj

The Cush wrote: »

Is there SD-only MPEG-4 TVs on the market here? If so which TVs ?

Until late 2008 we - in Denmark - had MPEG-4 TV sets on the market that do not - even today - support the Nordig.org 2.0 spec (Boxer). Some few did not support MPEG-4 HP @ Level 4.0 (HD) and more TV sets did not support the HE-AAC sound and were newer firmware upgraded.

We had several FTA STB's on the market as late as last summer, that do not have the hardware to support MPEG-4 HP @ L4 = HDTV eg. the box "Strong 8010".

At Danish DSO - November 1. 2009 - some STB's did not support HE-AAC, but most were firmware upgraded within a few days/weeks.*

DVB Subtitles was a major problem - mostly for non tested STB's and some IDTV's. Use of DVB-Subtitles on the public service channels were postponed until April 14. 2010 - 5.5 months after DSO.

Am i correct in asuming that in ROI, SD broadcast will use MPEG-1 level 2 audio and HD will use HE-AAC multichannel audio ?

Lars

watty

I'd not assume that. The minimum spec includes AAC stereo http://rtenl.ie/downloads/RTE-FTA-DTT-Receiver-Spec.pdf

AAC stereo saves a lot of bitrate at same quality as MP2 (aka MPEG-1 level 2).
DAB+ is AAC stereo.

Two Mux is not a lot for 4 HD channels and 6 or 7 SD channels and 12 Radio stations. Even with all MPEG4 video.

But I think all the TVs on sale retail in UK & Ireland that have MPEG4 are HD. They might not have AAC though. I have not had time to compare UK Freeview HD spec with RTE minimum spec (based on Nordig 2.0)

reslfj

watty wrote: »

I'd not assume that. The minimum spec includes AAC stereo http://rtenl.ie/downloads/RTE-FTA-DTT-Receiver-Spec.pdf

AAC stereo saves a lot of bitrate at same quality as MP2 (aka MPEG-1 level 2).
DAB+ is AAC stereo.

Two Mux is not a lot for 4 HD channels and 6 or 7 SD channels and 12 Radio stations. Even with all MPEG4 video.

100% agree. One could argue it is not enough even with MPEG-4 and all HE-AAC.

I know "HE.AAC Level 4 multi-channel audio" has been part of the RTE spec. since late 2008.
However, the hope for the Neotion card was based on ROI using MP2 audio on SD channels, as it was a well known fact that Neotion would never support HE-AAC or even just support AAC audio.

So I cannot understand why, so many in this forum (but not you watty) have continued to recommend the Neotion card almost to this day.

watty wrote: »

But I think all the TVs on sale retail in UK & Ireland that have MPEG4 are HD. They might not have AAC though. I have not had time to compare UK Freeview HD spec with RTE minimum spec (based on Nordig 2.0)

The D-Book is sadly not in the public domain. I think you are right - maybe with a very few exception. But note, Ofcom has 'outlawed' all DVB-T/MPEG-4 broadcast in the UK.

FreeviewHD do use AAC/HE-AAC. However, several early FreeviewHD STB's did not support surround sound well. http://gonedigital.net/2010/08/22/freeviewhd-surround-sound-equipment-list-upated/

Lars

watty

I think Lars reslfj that people did not appreciate that there would not be simulcast. No SD and HD at same time.

I tested the Neotion as an SD MPEG4 solution for a project and I was not impressed. I knew it could never do HD. Even as an MPEG4 SD to MPEG2 it is a bad solution.

As I predicted the price of Setbox is down. £80 now for HD DTT.

I warned everyone since the so called "trial" in 2006 that to wait for a final spec. I have been advising people even now to put off purchase and wait for a box with Saorview logo and if a TV has to be bought today, to get a real HD set and regard it as Monitor with HDMI for setboxes. Possibly an HDTV with Freeview HD, if you have to buy today, is least bad option. But be prepared to need a Setbox. Ideally you need at least one Saorview Dual tuner HDD PVR setbox as a VHS with tuner is only good to play old tapes not transferred to DVD, not any use for recording really.

watty

reslfj wrote: »

But note, Ofcom has 'outlawed' all DVB-T/MPEG-4 broadcast in the UK.

FreeviewHD do use AAC/HE-AAC

Lars

Obviously since they are moving to DVB-T2 HD MPEG4 they see creating a third category of DVB-T SD MPEG4 as well as DVB-T MPEG2 a bad idea. They are right.

At least we have only ONE standard. It's bad because of early adoption the UK has to have two. They need three like a hole in the head.

Soarsat also will have this advantage. It will be a single standard, DVB-S2, but otherwise like Saorview. So no legacy SD boxes like Freesat. All Saorsat receivers, even if you don't have HDTV or the channel isn't HD will support HD Channels. Just like Saorview.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

I have not had time to compare UK Freeview HD spec with RTE minimum spec (based on Nordig 2.0)

reslfj wrote: »

The D-Book is sadly not in the public domain.

The link below is to a Teracom document which provides a useful comparison between Nordig and D-Book DVB-T1 & T2 requirements. It doesn't include the RTÉ additions and clarifications to NorDig spec e.g. MHEG-5, but interesting anyway.

Teracom IRD requirement compare NorDig vs DTG D-Book (2010.06)

Just to inform you all-Now that I'm getting signal from Kippure dtt here in south Wicklow [they must have done something recently!] I can confirm that my sagemcom freeview HD T2 box is receiving the RTENL HD test card perfectly

STB

reslfj wrote: »

Am i correct in asuming that in ROI, SD broadcast will use MPEG-1 level 2 audio and HD will use HE-AAC multichannel audio ?

Lars

Or AAC. I know where you are going with this Lars. To be honest you are right they are no longer a solution for HD or other audio. I have long been meaning to get this destickied and get a health warning added that the NP4 only support SD video L3 and audio codecs MPEG1,2 MP3 and AAC, and nothing else. I see the thread has a high read count here (hopefully not from Scandanavia!) and I did see your post on recorder forum (Vi er ikke alle Idioter - just some of the time!)

Neotion are even making the kits (to take your Tv apart and replace the board - as a solution! DIY!).

They are up to NP6+ which supports HE-AAC and all codecs (not sure its available as a cam or just a chip or what their intentions are) but I can imagine the heat they would produce!

Neotion processor list and their various limitations.

http://www.neotion-processor.com/processors/processors.pdf


How are the STB manufacturers reacting to providing the HE-AAC in a firmware update in Denmark ? Did they provide it ?

It should not be a hardware limitation (most combo/dvb-t boxes are based on the STi7xxx chip set)

watty

The Neotion is not a solution.

reslfj

watty wrote: »

The Neotion is not a solution.

This is the information that Boxer.se and others have been given by Neotion last year - in writing.

STB wrote: »

How are the STB manufacturers reacting to providing the HE-AAC in a firmware update in Denmark ? Did they provide it ?

It should not be a hardware limitation (most combo/dvb-t boxes are based on the STi7xxx chip set)

HE-AAC support was rather quickly fixed - but I do not know the quality of the audio or if some boxes only support AAC.

DVB subtitles support was a bigger problem.

The worst problem is, however, the rather many boxes sold with MPEG-4 SD support only. We currently have one HD DTT channel, but Jan 1. 2012 (in 16 months) the state TV (DR1 and DR2) will change to HD (only) - much like RTÉ is planning.

Lars

watty

Die Sagem Picnics and Neotion "CAM"s.

Wait and get certified solutions. Take out the guessing. While "technical launch" is 31st October 2010, the "full public Launch" date is not decided, but Q2 2011 earliest and 31st December 2011 latest. My guess is probably June /July 2011.

icdg

The OP has requested that this thread be unstickied. TBH I'm not exactly sure why it was a sticky in the first place, but if anyone strenuously objects to it being unstickied PM me.

hifinut

Spotted a great deal in tesco galway last night, samsung 20 inch 99 euro. No details on carton so i took a chance as they were flying out the door. It is a model LS20TDDSUV/en, which thanks to a post here tells me it is mpeg2. It was advertised as a DTV and as it wont work here ,I reckon I have a case to get a refund. Am I correct in saying that I would need a set top box to make it work and recv rte etc on digital ?

rsmike

hifinut wrote: »

Spotted a great deal in tesco galway last night, samsung 20 inch 99 euro. No details on carton so i took a chance as they were flying out the door. It is a model LS20TDDSUV/en, which thanks to a post here tells me it is mpeg2. It was advertised as a DTV and as it wont work here ,I reckon I have a case to get a refund. Am I correct in saying that I would need a set top box to make it work and recv rte etc on digital ?

Yes, I think you have a very good case for a refund, I would guess Tesco would generally be good for refunds anyway besides the point they should not be advertising this set as DTV compatible

However at €99 still a great deal!

hifinut

Yes you are right,now that I think about it ill prob keep it as a monitor.

A slightly different question, but perhaps someone on the post might know the answer. i have a distributed terrestrial signal throughout the house on a triac amp. If I want to put down a digital TV signal to all TVs, is one set top box enough, if so any pointers ?

watty

Your question makes no sense.

All the aerial points will have DTT on them. Any TV or setbox that's compatible can use the aerial signal.

A set-box only feeds one TV, via SCART or HDMI, with what ever station is selected, hardly any have an RF modulator like a Sky box or VHS has (which are poor quality mono analogue). If it did have an RF Modulator (unlikely), it would be poor quality non-HD, mono version of whatever channel is selected. The "RF out" on many Terrestrial Digital Set-boxes is simply to "loop" the Aerial signal to a TV. It doesn't add a signal to that and in fact it's often a useless feature unless you have 2 x PVRs so as to record up to four channels at once.

I expect the next model Sky box will drop the RF modulator.

hifinut

Thanks for the clarification, whats a good model set top box?

STB

hifinut wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification, whats a good model set top box?

I know what you are looking for. You are looking for a DTT Set Top Box that has an RF modulator - it outputs the station displayed to a UHF frequency that you can tune in on another TV.

Bear in mind that you will have to change the channel on the box in the main room if you want to watch it upstairs/other room etc.

DI-WAY T-100HD RF




This is available from plenty of online shops in Czech Republic (.cz websites) - €59 (excl postage)

watty

At that price buy one for each TV and forget nasty RF modulators!

Pity no MHEG5. Get full spec box with MHEG5 for main TV and something cheap for other TVs?