DART - Awful service

I've been doing a course for the past month, and getting the same DART out every morning. Now, I always knew the DART service was dodgy, but I didn't realise just how much until now. It's the 07.56 train, and it has come on time exactly TWICE in the past 4 weeks. It is normally delayed by at least 2 or 3 mins, on a good day, it's normally at least 5 minutes late and today it was 12 minutes late. It's bad enough that there are only 4-5 trains an hour at peak times, and even then they can't even come on time? Even by Irish standards, that's poor. Was just in London where they announce if a train has a 1 minute delay and everyone sighs and looks at their watches. On most lines, the trains run every 2 minutes. Irish Rail seem to think a DART running up to 20 mins late is perfectly normal. I'm fed up of paying for a service that isn't delivered. If I pay 1.50 for a ticket I expect to arrive where I'm going on time, not 10 minutes late. I understand that Irish Rail are far, far behind the rest of Europe, and that the limited schedule has to do with signalling and so on, but I don't think expecting the 4 trains an hour to run on time is asking for the world. I'm shocked at how bad the service is, and how everyone just seems to think it's normal. This is a capital city, ffs!

Run_to_da_hills

I mentioned the same on another thread and ill repeat because its relevant

I cannot stand people bitching about the suburban Bray to Howth service of to day being 2 or 4 minutes late. If were you around in the pre dart days of the 80iesyou had to make do with an assorted cocktail of battered up cravens, wooden horse boxes, metrovics and converted AEC push pulls with plastic seats, the smell of diesel fumes, cigarette smoke and steam belching in on top of you every morning going to work thats if you were not 15 minutes late.

You have it good today just get up 15 minutes earlier.

That may be so. But it's now 2008. Why can't things run properly? Like they do in England, France, Spain, Germany etc etc? Ireland isn't a 3rd world country. If a train is scheduled at 07.56, it should come at 07.56.

Wreck

I've been getting the Dart twice a day for over 15 years and you have no idea how much better the service is now. This summer was unreal, can't remember it being delayed once, there were nearly always seats available when I got on, and there was very little overcrowding. Ofc since the start of September things have gotten worse again, and spending 30 minutes crammed in with not enough air is no fun, especially when their are delays of over 15 minutes (happened twice this week).

D.L.R.

This is what happens when you shoehorn Suburban, Regional and National services onto the same two tracks. Get used to it, without quad tracking the Dart will always have these 'unforeseen' delays. My advice is to build them into your schedule.

Iarnrod Eireann have an automated voice to announce delays. That speaks volumes.

ixoy

Remember it's not delayed unless it's ten minutes past scheduled time! Only Irish Rail could consider a delay of approximately 15% of the longest possible journey time on the line as being "on time"...

Ckal

I was in Connolly in August. It wasn't peak times, but it was busy... and hot. I missed the DART by about a minute and the next one wasn't for another 38 minutes. I get that the line is packed with other services, but seriously... 38 minutes between two trains? It's a joke!

So, it's 2008... and we are an island with a small population on the edge of a continent... but it's bad. Very bad. And considering the amount you pay for a ticket, you should get a top quality service.

markpb

I lived along the Dart line for two years and almost completely gave up using it. Completely unpredictable timetables, huge gaps between trains, sitting for ages at each station, staff randomly not showing up to open stations or sell tickets. The list is endless and even when you know the reasons, it's still a crap service.

Run_to_da_hills

I couldn't care less how much delayed the service as long as they don't start mixing up the multiple units again. 6 months ago we had to put up with that phantom 6 car train unit comprising of four 8100's and two 8500's :eek:

elekid

Of course it's great that the rail service has improved, no-one can deny that, but "it used to be worse" is hardly a good reason to excuse an infrequent, commonly delayed service in this day and age. We should be looking for continued improvements, not settling for a poor service because we can remember when it was even worse than it is now.

I think one of the big problems is the failure of Irish people to complain. 'Ah sure it used to be worse', 'ah sure, just get up a bit earlier'. If the train service was like this anywhere else, there would be uproar. Trains being 5+ minutes late more often than they are on time is completely unacceptable. I expected very little of the DART, and it has still disappointed me.

Run_to_da_hills

[quote=[Deleted User];57367450]I think one of the big problems is the failure of Irish people to complain. 'Ah sure it used to be worse', 'ah sure, just get up a bit earlier'. If the train service was like this anywhere else, there would be uproar. Trains being 5+ minutes late more often than they are on time is completely unacceptable. I expected very little of the DART, and it has still disappointed me.[/QUOTE]

I think most people dont complain because they are happy enough with it and don't expect any better. If you want to be able to time your watch from your local train you move to Germany. This is Ireland and will always be Ireland.

Right. This is Ireland, so we can never expect a train to turn up less than 5 minutes late. I wonder more and more about the people in this country. The little hole in your logic here is that the majority of employers aren't quite so laid back about punctuality. They don't take so kindly to their employees wandering in 10 minutes late every day because of 'operations on the tracks.' I suppose you're going to tell me these people should get a DART an hour earlier than they need to to make sure they're on time, because that's just such a reasonable suggestion. Let's all get up at 5.30 a.m because Irish Rail can't manage to stick to their schedules.

If I wanted high speed trains which come every 1-2 minutes, I would move to London or Madrid or Paris. All I'm asking is trains which come ON TIME every 15 minutes. Yet this is apparently too much to ask.

karlr42

It's not a really an issue that can be solved anytime soon. With the same two tracks being used for the DART, commuter services, the Enterprise, the occasional freight working and empty workings to/from Drogheda depot, problems are going to happen inevitably. There is no point complaining if there's no solution at present. Put your energy into ensuring the Interconnector is built.

Vokes

[quote=[Deleted User];57367450]I think one of the big problems is the failure of Irish people to complain. 'Ah sure it used to be worse', 'ah sure, just get up a bit earlier'. If the train service was like this anywhere else, there would be uproar. Trains being 5+ minutes late more often than they are on time is completely unacceptable. I expected very little of the DART, and it has still disappointed me.[/QUOTE]So have you complained to Iarnroid Eireann yet?

Run_to_da_hills

As mentioned this line is shared by Diesel express trains that run between Drogheda, Gorey, Rosslair at least on the hour. They only stop at main stations such as Tara, Connolly, Pearse, Dunlaoghaire and Bray. All darts services have to be well clear of them.

kmick

Bored with delays
Hate other people
Moany Baxtard

On your bike - literally.
Set your own agenda
No people to deal with
Only yoursef to give out to

BluntGuy

Like good ideas in a Fianna Fail government, DART services are few, far and inbetween, totally random and not nearly as good as they sounded when they finally get here.

It's shame to say it but our DART services are so crappy they make going to work on a punctured unicycle sound attractive...

It's a disgrace.

Tadhg17

Is there any space left on the Northern line to 4 track the line? Or even space for a third line?

KC61

There are two issues - the gaps in the DART schedule and reliability.

In order to deal with the first issue, there needs to be a complete recast of the timetable of all services through Connolly.

It is perfectly possible to run a clockface schedule through Connolly, but it requires a total recast of DART, Commuter and Intercity schedules.

There was talk of this happening with the next timetable change, but I belive that it has been deferred, as it would require additional resources that are not currently available.

The existing timetable has developed into the current mess due to more and more additional commuter services being added (principally to/from Maynooth) through Connolly, and a radical overhaul is long overdue.

As far as reliability is concerned, as other posters have observed the railway is twin track on all lines and it only takes one train to fail/be delayed for a knock on effect to be felt on all other services. Recasting the schedule would help in this, as will the resignalling of the city centre and Maynooth lines, but short of adding additional track capacity, which would be impossible south of Connolly, and very expensive north of Connolly as land would have to compulsorily purchased, there is very little else that can be done.

You cannot compare a heavy rail service operating on twin tracks in Dublin with either the Tube (which is effectively a high frequency metro) in London, or indeed many of the suburban services in the London area (which certainly do not operate every 2 minutes) or elsewhere where there are normally four tracks, separating slow and fast services.

Yes there are only four/five DART services per hour, but they have to share the central section with Maynooth services, the northern line with Drogheda and Enterprise services, and the southern section with Gorey/Rosslare trains. There is, unfortunately, a far greater capacity for something to go wrong on the Dublin commuter section than on the other networks, due to both the signalling limitiations in the central area of Dublin and the track capacity restraints.

paulm17781

RTDH once again shows he's everything that is wrong with attitudes in this country. If he really thinks that mixing different generations of DARTs is the worst thing that can happen, it says a lot.

OP I agree, the DART is a terrible service, I grew up slightly closer to the DART than the bus, I used the bus more frequently. Yes, there are problems with scheduling and sharing tracks etc. but there is no excuse for them being late.

What's worse is the folks here who give out that you complain about shoddy service as though it's your fault. I think the best you can do is write to your local TD or have a look at railusers.ie

thebman

The train I get home to Maynooth is always 5 minutes late every day guarenteed. I don't know why they didn't just change it on the timetable in the last change to arrive 5 minutes later.

All I know is when I'm runnin 5 minutes late, I appreciate it and I don't mind it the rest of the time

I think most of Ireland runs 5 minutes late so I don't see the problem. The morning trains are almost always on time on the Maynooth line. The only problems recently seem to be a repeating signal failure at Clonsilla that needs to get sorted (might have been sorted already as it hasn't appeared for a while).

I think its ridiculous that there are only two lines but what are they to do? They can't demolish buildings to add the extra lines.

Having commuted on Dublin Bus for a year and now on the trains for a year, I can still live with the trains where as I wanted to kill everyone that worked in Dublin Bus by the time I finished up in the last place I worked.

Dublin Bus, where you have to get the bus before the bus before the bus you should have to get because half of them don't turn up and when they do, sometimes the driver jsut doesn't feel like stopping or the bus breaks down.

Rarely seem to have these problems on the trains and every service has its bad days so some delays once or twice a year are understandable IMO.

loyatemu

good example yesterday - missed the 0830 Dart from Greystones, next one wasn't until 0930 (yes I know, single-track to greystones, but this is still a ridiculously long gap).

The 0930 then didn't depart until 0940, then sat for 10 minutes in Bray waiting for a driver change. So by the time it left bray it was almost 20 minutes down.

People don't really complain about the Dart too much because it is better than the buses, and it generally does run within about 5 minutes of schedule, which for Ireland is good, but for anywhere else is not great. It is slow though - 55 mins from Greystones to Connolly (18 miles) and when something goes wrong, the whole thing falls apart and you can find yourself abandoned with no information.

The erratic scheduling and poor timekeeping is only partly due to the presence of commuter trains on the same line though - Irish Rail have no real incentive to improve performance, their charter is meaningless and customers only get a (paltry) refund if trains are over an hour late. Consistent, day-to-day lateness is largely ignored.

paulm17781

Greystones shouldn't have the DART, that's part of the DART's problem. What it should have is a very frequent shuttle service to Bray. This would get people to Bray faster and keep the DART more frequent. It is only because of political meddling it does and it has damaged the service.

If there were a frequent shuttle, you'd have gotten to Bray earlier and been able to get a DART or even bus from there.

prendy

i dont understand why the lines between connolly and Dun Laoirigh are not soley for Dart services?. have a station in DL for southern trains connecting them to a frequent (every 10 mins) Dart service. Likewise at Connolly, i dont see why the maynooth train has to go to Pearse and in some cases Bray??? when the dart 2 mins later is going there. Every city commute requires you to change trains but here its like IE want every train to go everywhere.

paulm17781

It's to do with storage and people wanting a one seat journey. The Maynooth trains going to Bray are so they can have a train going to Bray. Once the interconnector is built this will improve greatly, we should really be writing to TDs to ensure this goes ahead.

loyatemu

paulm17781 wrote: »

Greystones shouldn't have the DART, that's part of the DART's problem. What it should have is a very frequent shuttle service to Bray. This would get people to Bray faster and keep the DART more frequent. It is only because of political meddling it does and it has damaged the service.

If there were a frequent shuttle, you'd have gotten to Bray earlier and been able to get a DART or even bus from there.

political stunt - yes, but its a reality now and they're not likely to tear down the wires anytime soon - it is also very heavily used.

It should be within the capacity of a competent railway company to operate - again IE's poor scheduling and timekeeping exacerbate any problems that occur at the Greystones end. I agree they should have a shuttle service filling in the gaps though.

paulm17781

loyatemu wrote: »

It should be within the capacity of a competent railway company to operate - again IE's poor scheduling and timekeeping exacerbate any problems that occur at the Greystones end. I agree they should have a shuttle service filling in the gaps though.

I don't think a shuttle filling the gaps would work, the length of time it takes a DART to get from Bray - Greystones and back is a major problem for the DART. Shuttle all the way. While unpopular, it would actually increase the amount of people carried from Bray to Greystones.

Tipsy Mac

I use the Dart to get to work most days, in Dublin id say its 2nd for time keeping after the Luas. Poor planning by Fianna Fail along the northern line means additional tracks can never be added and we are stuck at the current frequency and delays forever.

MOH

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I think most people dont complain because they are happy enough with it and don't expect any better. If you want to be able to time your watch from your local train you move to Germany. This is Ireland and will always be Ireland.

I think most people don't complain because there's no point. Irish Rail are accountable to no-one. They have their own passenger charter which they consistently fail to adhere to. They're exempt from the small claims court. They can pretty much do what they like. No accountability, general incompetence, poor management, and entrenched unions mean nothing's going to change soon.

The attitude "Oh, in the old days we only had 1 train a month and that was usually 12 days late, you're so lucky now, stop giving out" isn't helpful either.
Why do you feel its completely unreasonable to expect a train in Ireland to run to its timetable?

An average delay per journey of 3 minutes (and mine's more than this so far this year) work out at 2 hours per working month (20 day, 2 journeys per day). That's 24 hours a year.

So if you're happy losing a full day of your life (or 3 days holidays) to Irish Rail's incompetence every year, good for you. Most people I know aren't.

paulm17781

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

I use the Dart to get to work most days, in Dublin id say its 2nd for time keeping after the Luas. Poor planning by Fianna Fail along the northern line means additional tracks can never be added and we are stuck at the current frequency and delays forever.

It can be done, it would just be expensive. The interconnector plan initially called for it along with a spur to the airport. The all knowing government decided the metro would be better where as the two projects would have been excellent.

patrickbrophy18

paulm17781 wrote: »

I don't think a shuttle filling the gaps would work, the length of time it takes a DART to get from Bray - Greystones and back is a major problem for the DART. Shuttle all the way. While unpopular, it would actually increase the amount of people carried from Bray to Greystones.

The problem with Greystones is that it doesn't have a shuttle service to Bray Dart station. It has a shoddy infrequent hourly bus service which takes forever to get into town. A few mates of mine from there have said it can take over 2 hours to reach town. This might somewhat explain the shoddy frequency of the service. It's also worth mentioning that not all of these services go into town. I feel sorry for a lot of the people in Greystones because as it is such a spread out area this leaves people with up to an hours walk at least from the local DART station. This unfortunate fact is shared with a lot of people from Bray as well because they can be up to an hour and a halfs walk from the station. If they are lucky to catch a Commuter they will be in town quicker. Unfortunately, a lot of them resort to taking the shoddy bus service as they have no other choice. This should be scrapped in favour of a highly frequent free feeder bus to Bray DART stations and Greystones DART station for that extra option. One of my mates from Bray would really benefit from this.

Cookie_Monster

Would a 2 carriage dart permanently running from Bray to Greystones and back not be an alternative solution. Simply change at Bray. Surely this would increase the capacity of the line, despite being a minor inconvenience to those having to change train.

loyatemu

it would make the line easier to operate for Irish Rail - it wouldn't increase the capacity and would probably add 10 minutes onto the (already fairly long) journey to Greystones.

I still don't believe the Greystones section is a problem in itself, its IR's inability to keep to its timetable that causes problems.

smog

D.L.R. wrote: »

This is what happens when you shoehorn Suburban, Regional and National services onto the same two tracks. Get used to it, without quad tracking the Dart will always have these 'unforeseen' delays. My advice is to build them into your schedule.

Iarnrod Eireann have an automated voice to announce delays. That speaks volumes.

This indeed is the problem. Gave up using this as the thoughts of waiting over 30 mins at certain times in the day to allow suburban trains to pass though is a joke. I can walk to town quicker and am not looking up timetables to "make" the next train

Mitch Connor

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The problem with Greystones is that it doesn't have a shuttle service to Bray Dart station. It has a shoddy infrequent hourly bus service which takes forever to get into town. A few mates of mine from there have said it can take over 2 hours to reach town. This might somewhat explain the shoddy frequency of the service. It's also worth mentioning that not all of these services go into town. I feel sorry for a lot of the people in Greystones because as it is such a spread out area this leaves people with up to an hours walk at least from the local DART station. This unfortunate fact is shared with a lot of people from Bray as well because they can be up to an hour and a halfs walk from the station. If they are lucky to catch a Commuter they will be in town quicker. Unfortunately, a lot of them resort to taking the shoddy bus service as they have no other choice. This should be scrapped in favour of a highly frequent free feeder bus to Bray DART stations and Greystones DART station for that extra option. One of my mates from Bray would really benefit from this.

The 84 is infrequent, does go to town and does take an age to do so, but the 184 only goes as far Bray, and has a decent frequency.

As for taking an hour to walk to the Dart station.... there is nowhere in Greystones that is that far from the station. I live at the opposite end of the town and it would only take me 30mins to walk it (though I'd be more likely to get a 184 into bray)

paulm17781

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Would a 2 carriage dart permanently running from Bray to Greystones and back not be an alternative solution. Simply change at Bray. Surely this would increase the capacity of the line, despite being a minor inconvenience to those having to change train.

Yes, this is what I mean, that would be a much better solution.

loyatemu wrote:

I still don't believe the Greystones section is a problem in itself, its IR's inability to keep to its timetable that causes problems.

No Greystones is a problem. That one single track line takes one DART out of operations for X minutes. AFAIK, the DART will be a shuttle only service to Greystones post interconnector. The DART ran every 5 minutes peak and 15 minutes off peak until they added Greystones. Maynooth and other services have used the capacity now, that's why some Maynooth trains run to Bray.

Alun

Also his comment that "This unfortunate fact is shared with a lot of people from Bray as well because they can be up to an hour and a halfs walk from the station" is untrue too. I live about as far away in Bray from the Dart station as it's possible to get and I can walk to the station in about 25-30 mins.

patrickbrophy18

I consider myself very lucky to live near the DART as it brings me into town in just under half an hour. The 9:10 Balbriggan Commuter service at Glenageary does this in an even shorter space of time. I do on the other hand think that the DART's punctuality is way off a lot of the time and there is no excuse. It doesn't really matter the type of train that is running. Mind you the 8100 Alstom stock are very uncomfortable. Back to the main point. As Dublin is a city it should have a world class city standard transport system.

When the new extensions to the DART line are finished post interconnector coupled with the completion of the two Metro lines and the end of Luas construction, Dublin's transportation system will be miles ahead (pardon the pun). I reckon that the completion of all of these projects will see a lot of bus routes put out of business. By that stage, most people in the Dublin area will be living in walking distance of a much faster, more reliable and more frequent railway line. Until that time comes, places such as Maynooth, Celbridge, Castleknock and Swords are screwed with the much slower mode of transport. In reality these projects should have been done 20 years ago when the existing DART line was being put in place.

paulm17781

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

In reality these projects should have been done 20 years ago when the existing DART line was being put in place.

The original DART plan from 1974 (or was it 76) had 3 lines, much of which was underground and probably would have stopped the horrific sprawl we've seen in the past 10 years. Political meddling ruined this.

Cookie_Monster

paulm17781 wrote: »

The original DART plan from 1974 (or was it 76) had 3 lines, much of which was underground and probably would have stopped the horrific sprawl we've seen in the past 10 years. Political meddling ruined this.

:eek:
Didn't know that, shocking.

I presume it was because we wouldn't have been able to afford it:rolleyes:

paulm17781

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

:eek:
Didn't know that, shocking.

I presume it was because we wouldn't have been able to afford it:rolleyes:

No, the EU gave the government money for it. CIE never got the money. I think it was called DRTTS or some such. I don't remember exactly but it was something like current line, line from Sandymount via Donnybrook, Merrion sq to Airport (all undergroud IIRC) and a line from Heuston to tallaght. I think Sandymount and Heuston were cross over points. I saw the old map on railusers.ie board I think, no idea where mind.

I just found http://www.lrta.org/luasChronology.html which has some information but I can't find the map. One does exist though.

Run_to_da_hills

paulm17781 wrote: »

The original DART plan from 1974 (or was it 76) had 3 lines, much of which was underground and probably would have stopped the horrific sprawl we've seen in the past 10 years. Political meddling ruined this.

I can remember that article in a free CIE propaganda paper that used to be handed out every month at suburban stations in the mid 70ies It depicted a picture of an electric "tan" and black underground train in a station under Grafton St and said that this what it would be like in 1995 in Dublin , This was a year or two after the launch of the "Super Train"

Dose anyone remember this magazine?

paulm17781

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I can remember that article in a free CIE propaganda paper that used to be handed out every month at suburban stations in the mid 70ies It depicted a picture of an electric "tan" and black underground train in a station under Grafton St and said that this what it would be like in 1995 in Dublin , This was a year or two after the launch of the "Super Train"

It was politics that stopped it, not CIE. While IE are awful, nearly all their problems are related to useless politicians. Worse still, we haven't learned anything since 1975.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Dose anyone remember this magazine?

They did have a free newspaper magazine in the 90s it was probably related.

G_R

paulm17781 wrote: »

I just found http://www.lrta.org/luasChronology.html which has some information but I can't find the map. One does exist though.

have you actually read that site... metro line 1 to be completed by 2006... its two years later and its not even definite (i hope it will) that the line will go ahead...

paulm17781

dannym08 wrote: »

have you actually read that site... metro line 1 to be completed by 2006... its two years later and its not even definite (i hope it will) that the line will go ahead...

Aye no doubt. However the site wasn't made in 1973 so the historic stuff is correct.

Run_to_da_hills

paulm17781 wrote: »

RTDH once again shows he's everything that is wrong with attitudes in this country. If he really thinks that mixing different generations of DARTs is the worst thing that can happen, it says a lot.

Having mixed generations of any type of carrage is a real indication of a country in recession. :pac::pac::pac:

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Would a 2 carriage dart permanently running from Bray to Greystones and back not be an alternative solution. Simply change at Bray. Surely this would increase the capacity of the line, despite being a minor inconvenience to those having to change train.

Speaking of two car dart units. I saw an express "Ghost" set last night travelling in the Bray direction at about 00.05 hours, The lights were off in the 8100 two cars. Looked cute and brought back memories.

Rockshamrover

The main problem, as has been pointed out, is the diesel trains on the Dart line. A massively expensive solution to the problem would be to put an underground track or two, beneath the current tracks from say, Howth junction to Connolly. From Connolly, people would switch to the Dart ( which would now be much more frequent). Then from Bray there could be diesels to Greystones and beyond. That way you could leave the surface tracks free for darts.

A couple of 100 million should cover it:D

An average delay per journey of 3 minutes (and mine's more than this so far this year) work out at 2 hours per working month (20 day, 2 journeys per day). That's 24 hours a year.

Exactly. This week I spent a total of 45 minutes waiting on the platform for delayed DARTs. It's just not acceptable. Once or twice, OK, but a regular delay of over 5-10 minutes being considered 'normal' is ridiculous. The thing is, the odd time, it does show up on time, so you need to be there at 07.56 just in case, or the next one isn't until 8.16. It's just such a waste of time!

And yes, I have complained to Irish Rail on several occasions.

patrickbrophy18

paulm17781 wrote: »

The original DART plan from 1974 (or was it 76) had 3 lines, much of which was underground and probably would have stopped the horrific sprawl we've seen in the past 10 years. Political meddling ruined this.

What where these three lines?

karlr42

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

What where these three lines?

I remember reading that one would be to Coolmine, with a branch off the line going northward through where the Blanchardstown Centre is now.