Irish football this weekend: 26-27/09/08

bohsman

Albion is a verbal agreement, they are arguing that thats all they need, its up to the courts to decide. The €4m overdraft was put to the members at the last AGM/EGM or whatever it is towards the start of the season, Im assuming it was passed - they called it a bridging loan - between the board being 100% certain the court case would be won and having another court case with Sean Connor coming up there are extra costs. Yes it all stinks, no Im not happy but as you say Ill enjoy the success while it lasts.

OhNoYouDidn't

bohsman wrote: »

Albion is a verbal agreement, they are arguing that thats all they need, its up to the courts to decide. The €4m overdraft was put to the members at the last AGM/EGM or whatever it is towards the start of the season, Im assuming it was passed - they called it a bridging loan - between the board being 100% certain the court case would be won and having another court case with Sean Connor coming up there are extra costs. Yes it all stinks, no Im not happy but as you say Ill enjoy the success while it lasts.

Until the High Court case in October or when Pats injunct.



Did you take money from Albion? Hard to argue that its only a 'verbal agreement' when you took money and announced the deal to the media.

And then there is Sean Connor-gate. I won't tell you what I heard happened in a Derry hotel room paid for with a Bohs credit card or a second story involving a female BFC employee, but lets just say I pray to Allah above that it comes out in court.

bohsman

At this stage Id take a 10 point deduction happily enough.

OhNoYouDidn't

bohsman wrote: »

At this stage Id take a 10 point deduction happily enough.

The penalty for deliberatly breaching the wage cap by €1m is relegation and loss of prizemoney.

SantryRed

bohsman wrote: »

At this stage Id take a 10 point deduction happily enough.

So basically, you're saying that you'd enjoy that one day of success knowing it could destroy the long-term future of your club?

I've been there mate and am still here. It's not nice.

Publin

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

€4m more borrowed down the IFSC and the Bozo's still aren't asking questions.

It was approved by the members at the last AGM. The explanations for it were given then and anyone who had any questions in relation to it received their answers.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The issue here is that you knew full well he would not pay until the albion issue is sorted and that is unlikely to be this season.

The decision is due on 6th October 2008 (i.e. this season).

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Hence the split on the BFC board.

This is not the reason for the "split" on the board.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The Harristown deal is dead. They are millions in debt, in clear breach of the wage cap and still won't say boo despite being a members club. The wheels could come off as soon as the Albion court case next month.

The Harristown deal is not dead. Yes we are millions in debt. No we're not in "clear breach" of the wage cap.

For what it's worth I'm of the same opinion as bohsman in relation to the running of the club. However, for the most part you're talking an awful lot of rubbish.

SantryRed

Publin wrote: »

:The Harristown deal is not dead. Yes we are millions in debt. No we're not in "clear breach" of the wage cap.

Well the Metro isn't getting anywhere or going anywhere fast. And isn't that Harristown stadium only going to happen if the Metro line goes by it. Meaning the original line provision would have to be moved? and that's only if the Metro is ever built in the first place?

Publin

SantryRed wrote: »

Well the Metro isn't getting anywhere or going anywhere fast. And isn't that Harristown stadium only going to happen if the Metro line goes by it. Meaning the original line provision would have to be moved? and that's only if the Metro is ever built in the first place?

That's true about the Metro. Public transport would be an issue. However, I doubt Carroll will care, as it will only really affect Bohs and mean the land would be worth less (I would imagine anyway). It may however give rise issues with planning permission (like Drogheda's current situation with the NRA), in which case another suitable site would have to be found.

For ONYD to state that the deal is dead at present is incorrect. The outcome of the Albion case will of course have a major say in whether it is or isn't, but at the moment it's not dead.

SantryRed

That's well known though. The ground will not be built unless the Metro is done.
I can't see it happening to be honest.

But nothings been signed?
Bohs won't get anywhere near the original figure. Lucky to get half that.

Publin

SantryRed wrote: »

But nothings been signed?
Bohs won't get anywhere near the original figure. Lucky to get half that.

Yep, it's just a heads of agreement. Lucky to get half of it?? That's a bit of an exaggeration!

SantryRed

I don't really think so.

Housing market's going down. Econony isn't at it's best at the minute either.

I honestly think yous will be very lucky to get anything over half of the original figure.

bohsman

Economy is going downhill but its prime land in the city, land has not dropped by anywhere near 50%. On the flipside it also means that land for a new stadium will be far cheaper.

Santryred - no thats not what Im saying, till the outcome of the case theres not much that can be done anyway so Im enjoying it for the moment and Im fully confident that our long term future is not under threat either way.

Publin

SantryRed wrote: »

I honestly think yous will be very lucky to get anything over half of the original figure.

We shall see .

bohsman wrote: »

Economy is going downhill but its prime land in the city, land has not dropped by anywhere near 50%. On the flipside it also means that land for a new stadium will be far cheaper.

Excellent point. Any alternative site should be a lot cheaper also.

As bohsman has said, everything should be a lot clearer in about a week's time when the courts re-open and the outcome of the case is decided.

SectionF

Once again, post-Derby drubbing, ONYD is up to talk about anything you like, so long as it's not the football.

Lot of property and legal experts creeping out of the woodwork lately. Most of them have about as much grasp of the facts as Sarah Palin has on geo-politics.

CiaranC

Economy is going downhill but its prime land in the city, land has not dropped by anywhere near 50%

Housing bubble burst, construction industry collapse, sub-prime crisis and credit crunch. Last time I checked, property developers weren't too keen on developments which are guaranteed to generate a loss.

More cloud cuckoo land nonsense.

djpbarry

Could have sworn the title of this thread said something about football...

Nalz

lol we should keep it on topic lads, maybe start a "Are Bohs f'ucked thread" ?

Kalonas - turning out to be a legend. Another great display from the him, albeit 20 mins or so

Zebra3

CiaranC wrote: »

Housing bubble burst, construction industry collapse, sub-prime crisis and credit crunch.

I don't know anyone whos gaff has dropped in price by 50% so why should land prices drop by more then?

CiaranC wrote: »

Last time I checked, property developers weren't too keen on developments which are guaranteed to generate a loss.

Why would anyone be keen on anything that guarantees a loss?

OhNoYouDidn't

So lets be clear.

Despite the global credit crunch, Irish banks not lending to developers anymore, the property market slowdown, Liam Carroll having being terminally ill, an upcoming court case to decide if Bowezz own the land they are selling and the metro line that the Harristown deal was dependent on being stalled the B*hs lads on here are saying the deal is still on.

And because the deal is still on, Liam Carroll will still stump up that million this season to keep them compliant with the wage cap.



For the younger / non LoI heads, self delusion in D7 has a long and proud tradition. So long as they finish ahead of Rovers, the ends justify the means. Fair play to one BFC board member who asked the right questions, he got booted off the board for his troubles though.

I'm tremendiously looking forward to this trainwreck.

OhNoYouDidn't

Zebra3 wrote: »

I don't know anyone whos gaff has dropped in price by 50% so why should land prices drop by more then?

:

Once banks stopped lending to developers, the value of non-zoned land tailed off drastically.

djpbarry

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

For the younger / non LoI heads, self delusion in D7 has a long and proud tradition. So long as they finish ahead of Rovers, the ends justify the means.

Jaysus, just face it; Bohs are 36 points better than Rovers so far this season. End of.

OhNoYouDidn't

djpbarry wrote: »

Jaysus, just face it; Bohs are 36 points better than Rovers so far this season. End of.

on the basis of you breaking the wage cap by €1m and borrowing €4m and us being under the wage cap and debt free.

What was that Michael Platini said about cheats?

trust me, I'm much happier with where Rovers are and are going than you lot. As I said before, enjoy it. Like your rivals from down the canal it will be a long time before you see success again, if you even get to see it this season.

SectionF

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

us being under ... debt free.

Care to enlighten your non-LoI and younger board member friends how that came about?

OhNoYouDidn't

SectionF wrote: »

Care to enlighten your non-LoI and younger board member friends how that came about?

By fans taking a stand against an incompetent board who made a mess of a simple property deal and were living well beyond the clubs financial means.

Zebra3

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Once banks stopped lending to developers, the value of non-zoned land tailed off drastically.

But isn't the land being rezoned in the next Area Development Plan (or whatever it's called)?

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

on the basis of you breaking the wage cap by €1m and borrowing €4m and us being under the wage cap and debt free.

What was that Michael Platini said about cheats?

trust me, I'm much happier with where Rovers are and are going than you lot. As I said before, enjoy it. Like your rivals from down the canal it will be a long time before you see success again, if you even get to see it this season.

Yep, your debt-free status is so honourable. :rolleyes:

You really are deluded. As a Shels fan I would much rather have Bohs financial situation than Shamrock's. Bohs may have a couple of short-term issues to deal with (or they may not-we can all wait and see), but they have have a very valuable fixed asset.

djpbarry

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

on the basis of you breaking the wage cap by €1m and borrowing €4m and us being under the wage cap and debt free.

Eh, I'm a Pats man; if anyone should be bitter about Bohs spending habits, it's me. But I'm not. Bohs have been by far and away the most consistent side in the division this season - money doesn't buy you that kind of performance level (although it does help). On paper, there's not a whole lot of difference between Pats and Bohs, Pats just couldn't keep pace with them. Now if it turns out that Bohs are in breach of the licensing agreement, fair enough, we'll see what happens. If not, I'm not all that bothered really; they're the top side in Ireland at the moment and deserve the title. Your constant ramblings about their financial situation just smacks of bitterness because Rovers can’t compete with the top teams in this country anymore, so you want everyone dragged down to their level.

OhNoYouDidn't

djpbarry wrote: »

Eh, I'm a Pats man; if anyone should be bitter about Bohs spending habits, it's me. But I'm not. Bohs have been by far and away the most consistent side in the division this season - money doesn't buy you that kind of performance level (although it does help). On paper, there's not a whole lot of difference between Pats and Bohs, Pats just couldn't keep pace with them. Now if it turns out that Bohs are in breach of the licensing agreement, fair enough, we'll see what happens. If not, I'm not all that bothered really; they're the top side in Ireland at the moment and deserve the title. Your constant ramblings about their financial situation just smacks of bitterness because Rovers can’t compete with the top teams in this country anymore, so you want everyone dragged down to their level.

Most certainly not. B*hs have been awesome this season, and the fact that the last goal they conceded in the league before Friday was against Rovers, a whole third of a season ago, says it all. Pats are easier on the eye, but the spine is not there.

I'm fully aware that Rovers are mid-table until we are bedded into Tallaght and can go full time sensibly.

But my point is, B*hs have assembled that winning squad in what appears to be a clear violation of the leagues rules. Why should clubs like Rovers, UCD and Derry run their affairs within the spirit and letter of the law if other clubs are not, and B*hs happen to be the worst offenders.

stovelid

djpbarry wrote: »

Your constant ramblings about their financial situation just smacks of bitterness because Rovers can’t compete with the top teams in this country anymore, so you want everyone dragged down to their level.

Dunno, about this. Bohs (followed by Pat's) are the best team in the country for sure, but why do the best players gravitate to Dublin 7, Dublin 8 and Cork?

As a Rovers fan, it's not bitterness to point out that we are part-time, operating within budget and unequivocally under the wage-cap. More than one club in the country are operating at a loss; fielding full-time teams on part-time gates, with a set-up that cannot be sustained long-term. Pats or Bohs can't laugh at our crowds. Seriously. My old man would say it's tuppence halfpenny looking down on tuppence.

I feel bitter, but not particularly because it's Bohs. I feel bitter because even if the whole league woke up to financial reality, budgeted and tried to build the game sensibly, one club would get in an 'investor'/gamble on their 'fixed asset', hoover up the best players and lord it over their rivals for 4-5 years before going bust.

Typical FAI/LOI board sh*te and short termism.

No wonder our league is a fcuking laughing stock.

CiaranC

Zebra3 wrote: »

I don't know anyone whos gaff has dropped in price by 50% so why should land prices drop by more then?

What difference does it make what price it is if you cant sell it?

Zebra3

CiaranC wrote: »

What difference does it make what price it is if you cant sell it?

None.

But what's your point as there will be plenty of people interested in buying Dalyer if Carroll wangles his way out of it.

OhNoYouDidn't

Zebra3 wrote: »

None.

But what's your point as there will be plenty of people interested in buying Dalyer if Carroll wangles his way out of it.

Have you opened a newspaper in the past 3 months. The project is dead. As is the one in Harristown.

Its worrying that the Shels fan has learnt so little that he would rather be in B*hs situation of €6m in debt, running at a loss, in breach of the rules but sitting on an asset that used to be worth €50m than a debt free, profit making Rovers moving to the only FIFA 3 star football stadium in the country at minimal cost. Good to see you have learnt from your experience of the past 3 years.

Zebra3

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Have you opened a newspaper in the past 3 months. The project is dead. As is the one in Harristown.

Its worrying that the Shels fan has learnt so little that he would rather be in B*hs situation of €6m in debt, running at a loss, in breach of the rules but sitting on an asset that used to be worth €50m than a debt free, profit making Rovers moving to the only FIFA 3 star football stadium in the country at minimal cost. Good to see you have learnt from your experience of the past 3 years.

What project is dead? Carroll buying Dalyer? So what, someone else will still buy it and if Harristown is finished, Bohs will find somewhere else.

You can rest assured, when all this is over Bohs will be playing in a fine stadium that they own with possibly some commercial stuff around it that will be making them money while Rovers will be renting Tallght stadium from the SDCC. Both clubs will be debt-free, but only one will have actually paid their debts.

SectionF

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Have you opened a newspaper in the past 3 months. The project is dead. As is the one in Harristown.

Its worrying that the Shels fan has learnt so little that he would rather be in B*hs situation of €6m in debt, running at a loss, in breach of the rules but sitting on an asset that used to be worth €50m than a debt free, profit making Rovers moving to the only FIFA 3 star football stadium in the country at minimal cost. Good to see you have learnt from your experience of the past 3 years.

Where's the €6m in debt claim coming from?

Even if your analysis is right, and we go belly up, it won't be that bad, going by your experience.

We'll want the same treatment as the shams

• freedom to abandon our creditors
• free and exclusive use of a community stadium that we can pretend is ours in perpetuity
• unrestricted whinging rights and access to unparalleled hypocrisy whenever anyone we don't like beats us on the pitch

I'm quite looking forward to it!

OhNoYouDidn't

Zebra3 wrote: »

What project is dead? Carroll buying Dalyer? So what, someone else will still buy it and if Harristown is finished, Bohs will find somewhere else.

Are you that far removed from reality that you think that projects of this size are going to be taken on by developers in the forseeablr future? Have you heard of the credit crunch? The whole banks not lending anymore thing?

Zebra3 wrote: »

You can rest assured, when all this is over Bohs will be playing in a fine stadium that they own with possibly some commercial stuff around it that will be making them money while Rovers will be renting Tallght stadium from the SDCC. Both clubs will be debt-free, but only one will have actually paid their debts.

No, they will still be playing in Dalyer and may make enough money from Albion Homes to cover their multiple court cases and go part time to clear the two overdrafts of €5 / 6m.

And Rovers will still have paid off a higher percentage of their debts than Shels.

stovelid

Zebra3 wrote: »

Both clubs will be debt-free, but only one will have actually paid their debts.

I'm open to correction here, but I always assumed that the only reason Shels (or Bohs in the future) didn't /wouldn't go into receivership was because of the risk to the fixed asset of your grounds (which rovers didn't have), and not because of any moral turpitude re: written-off debts?

OhNoYouDidn't

stovelid wrote: »

I'm open to correction here, but I always assume that the only reason Shels (or Bohs in the future) didn't /wouldn't go into receivership is because of the risk to the fixed asset of your grounds (which rovers didn't have), and not because of any moral turpitude re: debts?

No, Shels lease Tolka from the Corpo in the same way Rovers will Tallaght so there is no fixed asset per say.

Examinership means a public examination of the books. Something Shels at the time were not willing to do. The idea that Olly made a moral stand at the time to protect his creditors as opposed to a pragmatic decision is laughable.

Zebra3

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Are you that far removed from reality that you think that projects of this size are going to be taken on by developers in the forseeablr future? Have you heard of the credit crunch? The whole banks not lending anymore thing?

So no new homes are ever gonna be built ever again in Dublin? :rolleyes: Nothing can even start to be developed in Phibsboro til at least 2011 which when most "experts" expect the economy to be ramping up again.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And Rovers will still have paid off a higher percentage of their debts than Shels.

Really? Quote me all the debts that we will not be paying then......

djpbarry

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Are you that far removed from reality that you think that projects of this size are going to be taken on by developers in the forseeablr future? Have you heard of the credit crunch? The whole banks not lending anymore thing?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0307/1204815361813.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0729/1217279096911.html

OhNoYouDidn't

Zebra3 wrote: »

So no new homes are ever gonna be built ever again in Dublin? :rolleyes: Nothing can even start to be developed in Phibsboro til at least 2011 which when most "experts" expect the economy to be ramping up again.

On the basis that Carroll planned on building a shopping centre on the site, yet again I fail to see what you are getting at.

Also, you do understand that Liam Carroll is terminally ill?

Zebra3 wrote: »

Really? Quote me all the debts that we will not be paying then......

I'm sure you officially plan on settling them all because you chose not to go down the sensible examinsership route due to the nature of your previous 'business model', but as of today you have cleared less of your debts than Rovers have. And that position will not change anytime soon.

djpbarry wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0307/1204815361813.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0729/1217279096911.html

What relevence is a 10 year plan to regenerate a village in the sticks from March got to do with Bohs?

There is no way a northside equivalent of Dundrum Shopping Centre is still on the cards.

SectionF

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

There is no way a northside equivalent of Dundrum Shopping Centre is still on the cards.

Dundrum SC. There's posh!

When will you be unveiling your Harvey Nicks Say Hello banner?

djpbarry

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

There is no way a northside equivalent of Dundrum Shopping Centre is still on the cards.

Well, I don't know about the specific plans for the site; all's I'm saying is that the world has suddenly shut down. There are still major developments in the pipeline in this country and, like it or not, a large site less than 2km from the Liffey is prime real estate. Just to further illustrate the point; I live in a 2-bed flat about 20 minutes' walk from Dalymount and there are other flats in my building currently valued about €50k more than what mine was valued at 2 years ago.

OhNoYouDidn't

SectionF wrote: »

Dundrum SC. There's posh!

When will you be unveiling your Harvey Nicks Say Hello banner?

the only place in Dublin to get the clobber and in the heard of Rovers country....

CiaranC

If you think a development of this scale can go ahead in the current climate you are nuts, plain and simple.

CiaranC

djpbarry wrote: »

I live in a 2-bed flat about 20 minutes' walk from Dalymount and there are other flats in my building currently valued about €50k more than what mine was valued at 2 years ago.

Haha. If you think any 2-bed property valued at 50k more than it was 2 years ago is valued correctly then you are off your head.

Heres the first one I looked at on Daft:

http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=358739&search=1

St Marys Tce, D7

From the Property Bee:

History
08 September 2008
* Price changed: from 'Region €350,000' to 'Region €295,000'
13 May 2008
* Price changed: from 'Region €380,000' to 'Region €350,000'
26 March 2008
* Initial entry found.

Thats down 85000 in 7 months.

It would be madness for any developer to get involved in this climate, even if by some miracle he could get a line of credit from somewhere.

OhNoYouDidn't

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, I don't know about the specific plans for the site;.

I'm glad you said that.

OhNoYouDidn't

CiaranC wrote: »

It would be madness for any developer to get involved in this climate, even if by some miracle he could get a line of credit from somewhere.

....and he wasn't dying of cancer.

The point here is that B*hs had 'insurance' in terms of the €2m from Carroll just for first refusal on the site, but the Gerrys managed to make a mess of that by denying that they had done a deal with Albion. Its classic B*hs.

They managed to screw up getting a gift.

Zebra3

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

On the basis that Carroll planned on building a shopping centre on the site, yet again I fail to see what you are getting at.

Also, you do understand that Liam Carroll is terminally ill?

Yeah, and again that doesn't stop someone else from coming in and buying the site and developing it. Remember how bad the 80s where? Even back then football grounds were getting sold and and redeveloped.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm sure you officially plan on settling them all because you chose not to go down the sensible examinsership route due to the nature of your previous 'business model', but as of today you have cleared less of your debts than Rovers have. And that position will not change anytime soon.

Can you back this point up or like the last time I asked you to quote something will you just ignore it? :rolleyes:

djpbarry

CiaranC wrote: »

Haha. If you think any 2-bed property valued at 50k more than it was 2 years ago is valued correctly then you are off your head.

Heres the first one I looked at on Daft:

http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=358739&search=1

According to the same website, the average price of a 2-bed apartment in Dublin 7 is currently €340k, which is more than my place was valued at 2 year's ago. There are places in my building (one or two of which are on Daft) currently valued at €360 - 390k.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Yeah, and again that doesn't stop someone else from coming in and buying the site and developing it. Remember how bad the 80s where? Even back then football grounds were getting sold and and redeveloped.

Good point.

CiaranC

djpbarry wrote: »

According to the same website, the average price of a 2-bed apartment in Dublin 7 is currently €340k, which is more than my place was valued at 2 year's ago. There are places in my building (one or two of which are on Daft) currently valued at €360 - 390k. Good point.

Valuation does not a sale make.

Anyone who thinks this deal, with all the myriad obstacles in its way, is still a runner, must know something the rest of us dont. Either that or they dont know what they are talking about.

Its nuts to be debating property prices on last weekends football thread, especially with someone who thinks prices are rising, so I'll give it a rest.

OhNoYouDidn't

CiaranC wrote: »

Valuation does not a sale make.

Anyone who thinks this deal, with all the myriad obstacles in its way, is still a runner, must know something the rest of us dont. Either that or they dont know what they are talking about.

Its nuts to be debating property prices on last weekends football thread, especially with someone who thinks prices are rising, so I'll give it a rest.

Its very pointed that its a Shels and Pats fan arguing this with you. The Bozo is conspicious in his absence from this one. They know the arse has fallen out of it but just won't admit it here.