Irish economy goes into recession "officially"

Darragh29

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

You'd need more than an angry mob to sway those lads, since in reality its not the politicians you have to convince, its their paymasters, the general public, and you'd need them to know that real change is needed, not just cute hoors doing their thing, and that change would come at a steep price.

You'd need an agenda, a platform, talking points, in short a political party. And when you had that, you'd be completely ignored by the entrenched politicians unless you had significant grassroots support, enough to uproot them wholesale and ensure they never got a look-in again.

We're talking about sweeping changes, effectively restructuring an entire government, which would be fought tooth and nail by some very powerful groups. Messy business.

I don't think things are bad enough for that to happen just yet. Maybe in a year or two, when the recession really starts to bite. Which would be plenty of time for a sufficiently motivated group to prepare.

Very well said Sam. What would be the objectives of this group??? What your proposing in effect is an Obama style solution for our little island, change we can believe in kind of thing. Before I get hopped on here, I couldn't agree more with Sam and I think we definitely need what he is describing here. The thing is, what short list of objectives would be central to the organisation?

Aside from hearing the word "recession" every time i blink, it has made absolutely no difference to me personally.


Does it actually have an effect on anyone here (negatively)?

uberpixie

Deleted User wrote: »

Aside from hearing the word "recession" every time i blink, it has made absolutely no difference to me personally.


Does it actually have an effect on anyone here (negatively)?

I am an out sourced techie.
My team has been cut from 3 down to 2 people.
The company who are paying for our services are looking at doing their own tech support in house in order to cut costs: I may be out of a job by xmas if I am unlucky.

Anyone envolved in the building traded is getting screwed up against a wall.

Taxi drivers are doing much less business, this started BEFORE last xmas. Just ask the next time you are in one. I starting hearing complaints in Feburary/March about business from taxi drivers.

Shops are doing much less trade. my friends mother works in Dunnes and has seen first had the changes in peoples shopping habits and her hours have been cut back.
Anyone I know in work who has been looking for a mortage and had it apporved a few months ago has had the sum reduced by at least 20-30k by the banks.
The signs are there and have been there a plenty if you look close enough and talk to people.

Also no stockbroker in this country has been making money over the last year, only losses. Davy stockbrokers have had pay cuts and have cut their workforce a few months ago and I am sure other stock brokers are in the same boat. When stockbrokers are not making money you know your are f u c k e d.

SimpleSam06

Darragh29 wrote: »

Very well said Sam. What would be the objectives of this group???

While I'm not ruling out taking actual concrete steps along these lines, at the moment I'm just chewing things over so to speak, so I haven't considered a general platform for every issue. It would probably focus on economic rejuvenation, however, something that will be central to a lot of people's lives over the coming years. Hypothetically.

Darragh29 wrote: »

What your proposing in effect is an Obama style solution for our little island, change we can believe in kind of thing.

To be honest its taking the lessons of history and applying them to our little patch. Putting the unemployed to work on massive infrastructure projects while you develop new industries is a time honoured technique to pull your economy out of a nose dive. It was used successfully in post war Japan, post world war I Germany, and it was the central focus of the New Deal that got the US out of the great depression.

The subsequent enormous success of all of these countries speaks volumes about the route we should be taking, I feel.

Ulysses Gaze

Government plans for the budget - Sunday Indo

http://propertymedia.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/si.jpg

gixerfixer

jaffa20 wrote: »

Right, who's up for a protest outside the Dail next week

That's the differnce between the Irish and the French IMO. They wouldnt have a smiley at the end of that sentence.

gixerfixer

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Government plans for the budget - Sunday Indo

http://propertymedia.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/si.jpg

To little to late.

SimpleSam06

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Government plans for the budget - Sunday Indo

http://propertymedia.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/si.jpg

Income tax rises, minor cuts to the public sector, massive borrowing, bah. Pedestrian leadership from a government trying to keep everyone happy and ruining everyone in the process. I'd ask how these clowns got into power, but anyone in the right place at the right time could have done the same. A lobotomised donkey could have done the same.

jaffa20

LOL funny but true. What can we expect from Fianna FAIL though!

Darragh29

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Income tax rises, minor cuts to the public sector, massive borrowing, bah. Pedestrian leadership from a government trying to keep everyone happy and ruining everyone in the process. I'd ask how these clowns got into power, but anyone in the right place at the right time could have done the same. A lobotomised donkey could have done the same.

What's the next step??? How can people change the current set up? And not for Fianna Gael. How can people fix this?

cson

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

To be honest its taking the lessons of history and applying them to our little patch. Putting the unemployed to work on massive infrastructure projects while you develop new industries is a time honoured technique to pull your economy out of a nose dive. It was used successfully in post war Japan, post world war I Germany, and it was the central focus of the New Deal that got the US out of the great depression.

The subsequent enormous success of all of these countries speaks volumes about the route we should be taking, I feel.

You're bordering on Socialism there. And bear in mind those time honored techniques are more than 50 yrs old at the latest.

I agree we need a change of government. There is absolutely no direction or solid decision making. Basically, they don't know what to do. Ireland needs leadership and innovation. Where its going to come from, I don't know. No Political party in this country has any semblence of leadership, direction or innovation. They're all the fucking same with different colours.

KnifeWRENCH

cson wrote: »

I agree we need a change of government. There is absolutely no direction or solid decision making. Basically, they don't know what to do. Ireland needs leadership and innovation. Where its going to come from, I don't know. No Political party in this country has any semblence of leadership, direction or innovation. They're all the fucking same with different colours.

Well I think most will agree that leadership and innovation is certainly not going to come from Enda Kenny. And really, a coalition led by a bloodless Fine Gael is the only viable alternative out there.
The current Government may not be perfect, but I certainly think they are better than the alternative. I've always liked and admired Cowen and I remain optimistic that the Govt. can get the country to recover from this.

square_igloo

square_igloo wrote: »

Well I think most will agree that leadership and innovation is certainly not going to come from Enda Kenny. And really, a coalition led by a bloodless Fine Gael is the only viable alternative out there.
The current Government may not be perfect, but I certainly think they are better than the alternative. I've always liked and admired Cowen and I remain optimistic that the Govt. can get the country to recover from this.

The main reason that I don't have faith in Brian Cowen is that he shares a problem that Boris Yeltsin once had.

Darragh29

cson wrote: »

You're bordering on Socialism there. And bear in mind those time honored techniques are more than 50 yrs old at the latest.

I agree we need a change of government. There is absolutely no direction or solid decision making. Basically, they don't know what to do. Ireland needs leadership and innovation. Where its going to come from, I don't know. No Political party in this country has any semblence of leadership, direction or innovation. They're all the fucking same with different colours.

I don't agree with that. I believe in capitalism but not the particular brand of it that we've regrettably been submerged in recently.

We have an unpopular government...

We have an unpopular opposition...

WE HAVE A HUGE FU*KING GAP THEN THAT WE NEED TO FILL!!!!!!!

SimpleSam06

cson wrote: »

You're bordering on Socialism there.

To be honest the catchphrases "socialism" and "capitalism" have ceased to have any real meaning in the modern world. I mean break it down a little; people pay taxes to the government which pools all this money and uses it for the common good, supposedly. All that these infrastructure projects did was put those resources to the best possible use.

You can't be afraid of reality because of a stereotype some beardy gent who couldn't add, subtract or multiply back in the 19th century tried to put on it. Any time people start talking about socialism or capitalism, I tune out completely. The only thing that matters are the actions you take.

Also, as I said, look at the results: Japan, largest or second largest economy in Asia (and by the way, its looking like China is using the exact same method). Germany, largest economy in Europe. The USA, largest economy on earth. Not a "socialist paradise" in sight. They attained this status after going through the very same process I described, as a direct result of this process.

cson wrote: »

And bear in mind those time honored techniques are more than 50 yrs old at the latest.

Yes, but our infrastructure and domestic industrial development are still distinctly third world in many respects. We are in the same position as those countries were in at the time, almost exactly. The main difference is I'm advocating taking these measures at the start of the recession/depression, not after it has taken its toll.

cson wrote: »

No Political party in this country has any semblence of leadership, direction or innovation. They're all the fucking same with different colours.

That is the simple truth. Someone needs to form a new party.

square_igloo wrote: »

I've always liked and admired Cowen and I remain optimistic that the Govt. can get the country to recover from this.

The country will recover from this one way or the other. If you want that recovery to be in our lifetimes, however, you need to turf out the jackasses in power at the moment. And if you want that recovery to land us any place except where we were in 1995, you really need to show them the door, and now.

m@cc@

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Go on a rampage through the public sector, cutting off dead weight left and right without fear or favour.

The last thing you want to be doing in times like this is create mass unemployment.

SimpleSam06

m@cc@ wrote: »

The last thing you want to be doing in times like this is create mass unemployment.

They'll cost us less on the dole than sucking down coffees as they while away the decades in public employ. Anyway, they can always either emigrate or join the infrastructure buildout.

Terry

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

While I'm not ruling out taking actual concrete steps along these lines, at the moment I'm just chewing things over so to speak, so I haven't considered a general platform for every issue. It would probably focus on economic rejuvenation, however, something that will be central to a lot of people's lives over the coming years. Hypothetically.


To be honest its taking the lessons of history and applying them to our little patch. Putting the unemployed to work on massive infrastructure projects while you develop new industries is a time honoured technique to pull your economy out of a nose dive. It was used successfully in post war Japan, post world war I Germany, and it was the central focus of the New Deal that got the US out of the great depression.

The subsequent enormous success of all of these countries speaks volumes about the route we should be taking, I feel.

That's all well and good, but you can't build anything in this country without massive amounts of red tape.

The same fúckers who sit back and moan about the state of the economy without doing anything about it are the ones who would be up in arms if you tried to build anything. They would start complaining about historical landmarks and the fact that Michael Collins once ate a snail on the very spot you are trying to build on.

We should have high rise buildings in every city in this country, but instead we have crumbling Georgian buildings with preservation orders on them because some jackass once took a piss there.

How many times have you seen innovative plans turned down because of nimbys?

I see it all the time in Leixlip.
Someone tries to build something that will benefit the town and you have all the grannies out in force telling us that we can't build anything there because a viking once beheaded a chicken on that very spot.
Every town in the country has the same problems and we will never get anything done because these jackasses are still living in the past.

These fúckers should be lined up against one of those crumbling Georgian building where a snail once crawled over Michael Collins' piss and shot. Then they should be ground up and put into the foundations of a new high rise office block.

There should be a few nuclear power plants dotted around the country, but instead we import electricity at massive costs to the consumer.

We should be using the oil from the millions of barrels worth off the west coast, but we are still importing the stuff from countries where women can't leave their houses without a male family member, and then we just let the Brits and the Danes take our oil.

We should have a massive port somewhere on the South West coast to take in ships travelling across the Atlantic, instead we have a cute little dolphin.

We should have a world class road system across land that nobody lives on or near, instead we have hippies sitting in the dirt. Fúcking English hippies at that.

All this because some rich old fart is sitting in a country manse somewhere, reading all the recent planning applications and rooting out some obscure historical reference to stop the progress.

How we allow these people to dictate where we can and can't build is far beyond anyones level of comprehension. It defies all logic. All we have to do is tell them to shut the fúck up and get back in their box.

In the 80's we had ANCO and Manpower teaching people how to build. These people then had to leave the country and take their talents to another country because we can't put a high rise building in Dublin city. It would ruin the skyline that people can't see when they are trying to cross the road at the Ha'penny bridge.

Building stuff is the way forward, but we're not allowed build anything anywhere. These cúnts would rather see the country go down the drain that see any real progress made in this country.

jaffa20 wrote: »

LOL funny but true. What can we expect from Fianna FAIL though!

Asked

cson wrote: »

You're bordering on Socialism there. And bear in mind those time honored techniques are more than 50 yrs old at the latest.

I agree we need a change of government. There is absolutely no direction or solid decision making. Basically, they don't know what to do. Ireland needs leadership and innovation. Where its going to come from, I don't know. No Political party in this country has any semblence of leadership, direction or innovation. They're all the fucking same with different colours.

And answered.

Deleted User wrote: »

The main reason that I don't have faith in Brian Cowen is that he shares a problem that Boris Yeltsin once had.

Yeah, but he can't buy drink after 10pm now.

Darragh29

Terry wrote: »

There should be a few nuclear power plants dotted around the country, but instead we import electricity at massive costs to the consumer.

We can't build a motorway but we have to start pulling the whole thing up after the opening day and making it twice as big... We built possibly the most expensive underground tunnel EVER and if what I'm hearing is true, the whole thing will have to be shut down soon because it is a fu*king death trap!!!

If we start building nuclear power stations in my lifetime, I'm fu*kin OUTA here!!! There wouldn't be a roof on the thing and it would have blown up or melted down or do whatever nuclear reactors so when they go t*ts up!

Terry

Darragh29 wrote: »

We can't build a motorway but we have to start pulling the whole thing up after the opening day and making it twice as big... We built possibly the most expensive underground tunnel EVER and if what I'm hearing is true, the whole thing will have to be shut down soon because it is a fu*king death trap!!!

If we start building nuclear power stations in my lifetime, I'm fu*kin OUTA here!!! There wouldn't be a roof on the thing and it would have blown up or melted down or do whatever nuclear reactors so when they go t*ts up!

That tunnel is too low for some of the trucks on the road.

I'm looking forward to the new underground system that will be too low for the trains.

To be honest, I'd be more worried about that leaking time-bomb just across the water.

Why don't we just form the Boards Political Party and take power?

I begs President. No. Vice President. No. Junior Vice President.

Terry

Deleted User wrote: »

Why don't we just form the Boards Political Party and take power?

I second that motion.
We have a few intelligent, forward looking people here. We just need to get them off their arses.
Donations will be accepted.

I begs President. No. Vice President. No. Junior Vice President.

You'll take what you're given.

SimpleSam06

Terry wrote:

All this because some rich old fart is sitting in a country manse somewhere, reading all the recent planning applications and rooting out some obscure historical reference to stop the progress.

How we allow these people to dictate where we can and can't build is far beyond anyones level of comprehension. It defies all logic. All we have to do is tell them to shut the fúck up and get back in their box.

That part is easy. Once you have the political power, you just rewrite the legislation. Thats not to say there aren't valuable historical sites that need protection, just that priorities need to be changed.

Darragh29 wrote: »

If we start building nuclear power stations in my lifetime, I'm fu*kin OUTA here!!! There wouldn't be a roof on the thing and it would have blown up or melted down or do whatever nuclear reactors so when they go t*ts up!

No need for nuclear, I've been looking into getting some investors together to go after deep water offshore wind turbines in the Atlantic. Its a seriously sweet proposition. Here are a few things to think about:

• Ireland is one of the best if not the single best placed country to take advantage of deep water winds.
• Deep water winds are both stronger and more steady than any other winds.
• You can store energy in reservoirs or a wide variety of different methods for those five minutes a year when there is a lull across the entire North Atlantic.
• Transmission is easy, you can move energy across thousands of miles with little to no loss, and we've been laying undersea cables since the nineteenth century.
• No need for vastly expensive crane ships, since the turbines are afloat, you just build them in the dock and tow them out, you can even have spares floating there in case of malfunction.
• Wind energy is a huge business, in Denmark you have over 30,000 people employed in that field alone, and you bet the technology can be exported and sold to other countries.
• No objections could be raised, as the turbines would be out of sight of the shore.
• The only issue with hooking them into the grid is that you need to turn off the other generators, which would have been the point of the operation.
• Its based on existing technology (floating oil platforms and wind turbines) and while the proper combination doesn't exist yet, with a little research it could be put together handily. There are already several groups in the beginning to advanced stages of research.

Being in charge of the finances of the country would circumvent the need to convince investors nicely!

Deleted User wrote: »

Why don't we just form the Boards Political Party and take power?

Indeed! You couldn't call it that though, you'd need something a bit more stirring.

SimpleSam06

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Indeed! You couldn't call it that though, you'd need something a bit more stirring.

Tu Fein.

Our motto could be, "decide for yourself"

Darragh29

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

That part is easy. Once you have the political power, you just rewrite the legislation. Thats not to say there aren't valuable historical sites that need protection, just that priorities need to be changed.


No need for nuclear, I've been looking into getting some investors together to go after deep water offshore wind turbines in the Atlantic. Its a seriously sweet proposition. Here are a few things to think about:

• Ireland is one of the best if not the single best placed country to take advantage of deep water winds.
• Deep water winds are both stronger and more steady than any other winds.
• You can store energy in reservoirs or a wide variety of different methods for those five minutes a year when there is a lull across the entire North Atlantic.
• Transmission is easy, you can move energy across thousands of miles with little to no loss, and we've been laying undersea cables since the nineteenth century.
• No need for vastly expensive crane ships, since the turbines are afloat, you just build them in the dock and tow them out, you can even have spares floating there in case of malfunction.
• Wind energy is a huge business, in Denmark you have over 30,000 people employed in that field alone, and you bet the technology can be exported and sold to other countries.
• No objections could be raised, as the turbines would be out of sight of the shore.
• The only issue with hooking them into the grid is that you need to turn off the other generators, which would have been the point of the operation.
• Its based on existing technology (floating oil platforms and wind turbines) and while the proper combination doesn't exist yet, with a little research it could be put together handily. There are already several groups in the beginning to advanced stages of research.

Being in charge of the finances of the country would circumvent the need to convince investors nicely!

Indeed! You couldn't call it that though, you'd need something a bit more stirring.

How does this technology work??? I mean a nuts & bolts description...

SimpleSam06

Darragh29 wrote: »

How does this technology work??? I mean a nuts & bolts description...

Well at its simplest, think of a buoy floating at sea, with a wind turbine sticking out of it, anchored to the sea floor with ropes. Sticking a pole down into deep water is a phenomenally expensive operation, not to mention it upsets marine life with its vibrations, so we'll be avoiding that. Thats the basic concept.

There are a lot of difficulties involved in the implementation, how to deal with the additional strain the pitch and yaw of the waves puts on the driveshaft, how to keep it centred on the wind, salt water corrosion, basic stability, overtrip (when the wind is too strong to turn the blades), how to keep the whole thing economical and so on, but I've a few ideas on how to deal with each one.

You not only could export energy, you could sell the yokes to anywhere with a coastline. And thats a lot of places. We need to get moving on it immediately though, or we'll be left standing while someone else gets the first to market advantage.

Darragh29

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Well at its simplest, think of a buoy floating at sea, with a wind turbine sticking out of it, anchored to the sea floor with ropes. Sticking a pole down into deep water is a phenomenally expensive operation, not to mention it upsets marine life with its vibrations, so we'll be avoiding that. Thats the basic concept.

There are a lot of difficulties involved in the implementation, how to deal with the additional strain the pitch and yaw of the waves puts on the driveshaft, how to keep it centred on the wind, salt water corrosion, basic stability, overtrip (when the wind is too strong to turn the blades), how to keep the whole thing economical and so on, but I've a few ideas on how to deal with each one.

You not only could export energy, you could sell the yokes to anywhere with a coastline. And thats a lot of places. We need to get moving on it immediately though, or we'll be left standing while someone else gets the first to market advantage.

Great idea, the only question I have is that why put this out at sea??? Does it not make more sense to keep them where you can get at them without too much hassle for maintenance purposes???

SimpleSam06

Darragh29 wrote: »

Great idea, the only question I have is that why put this out at sea??? Does it not make more sense to keep them where you can get at them without too much hassle for maintenance purposes???

No, the deep water winds are considerably stronger and more consistent than near shore winds. For purely power generation reasons alone, it makes more sense to have them in blue water. Then you have the ever present nimby situation which this solution neatly sidesteps. Except for the fact that it doesn't exist yet, it just doesn't get better than this, and even that is an advantage if you can be among the first to seize the opportunity.

Also maintenance is simpler than you might think - if a turbine reports a problem, tow out the replacement, hook it up, then tow the malfunctioning unit back in for repair.

Darragh29

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

No, the deep water winds are considerably stronger and more consistent than near shore winds. For purely power generation reasons alone, it makes more sense to have them in blue water. Then you have the ever present nimby situation which this solution neatly sidesteps. Except for the fact that it doesn't exist yet, it just doesn't get better than this, and even that is an advantage if you can be among the first to seize the opportunity.

Also maintenance is simpler than you might think - if a turbine reports a problem, tow out the replacement, hook it up, then tow the malfunctioning unit back in for repair.

Yeah, I can see the logic of what you are trying to do. Is there any possibility of these devices toppling over, I imagine they will be standing up pretty high, so they'll have to have a fairly large base to be stable. What about laying cables to bring the power ashore???

SimpleSam06

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah, I can see the logic of what you are trying to do. Is there any possibility of these devices toppling over, I imagine they will be standing up pretty high, so they'll have to have a fairly large base to be stable.

No, not really. I really shouldn't give away too much about how these problems would be resolved, but I've seen fishermen in Southeast Asia merrily navigating through storm force winds using an outrigger setup, all but impossible to turn over one of those babies.

Darragh29 wrote: »

What about laying cables to bring the power ashore???

String them down from the base of the unit, and trail them along. Thats fairly old tech, well established at this stage.