Waterford University discussion

Sully

I think a merger with Carlow could be a good idea. Some of their departments and courses are a lot better than what is offered here in WIT. Every year I hear students compare certain departments and courses to that offered in Carlow, and everybody says Carlow offers a much better course.

I wouldn't be comfortable with WIT getting University on their own, and I think a merger is the best way forward not just for the students (which we seem to forget about) but the whole South East.

Psychedelic

You could be right and it could work out even better for us, but I don't agree with your point about Waterford getting its own university. The whole campaign for university status was built upon the strength of WIT and the need for a university in the South East, Carlow IT never came into it until the eleventh hour when FG/Labour included the Technological University of the South East in their programme for government.

MitchKoobski

WIT would not be able to handle being a University on its own.

Both techs have their advantages so combining the two just seems the better plan.

djpbarry

mecco wrote: »

The point moreso is that it's to the economic detriment of the region to not have a "top tier" (for want of a better term) institution...

But the point is I'm just not convinced that "top tier" necessitates "university". You only have to look at the plethora of universities here in the UK to see that.

mecco wrote: »

If by this you refer to taxpayers, then surely seeming as taxpayers in all regions are contributing, then taxpayers in all regions should benefit equitably?

Well, to be honest, I think it's unfair that taxpayers who don't go to university have to cough up for those who do, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Psychedelic wrote: »

The Goodbody Report on the Economic Impact of a University of the South East (2005) said that up to €96m would be generated in the region if WIT was made a university.

I'm looking at that report right now and I can't see any mention of that figure?

Psychedelic

MitchKoobski wrote: »

WIT would not be able to handle being a University on its own.

Both techs have their advantages so combining the two just seems the better plan.

The Dr Port Report said it would be.

djpbarry wrote: »

But the point is I'm just not convinced that "top tier" necessitates "university". You only have to look at the plethora of universities here in the UK to see that.
Well, to be honest, I think it's unfair that taxpayers who don't go to university have to cough up for those who do, but that's a discussion for another thread.
I'm looking at that report right now and I can't see any mention of that figure?

Page vi - the figure is actually €97.6m

mecco

djpbarry wrote: »

But the point is I'm just not convinced that "top tier" necessitates "university". You only have to look at the plethora of universities here in the UK to see that.

TBH, I personally don't mind if the upgrade makes WIT a university or a technological university or any name you want for it, as long as it isn't simply a political sop. It needs to get this region represented at the aforementioned top tier. I would argue that, by and large, it is currently operating at this top tier but it's equally importantly to be recognised as being a top tier institution, both within and outside the region. With the way IT's currently exist and are viewed in this country, WIT is restricted from doing this.

As an aside, maybe there is a potential positive to be being a technological university. If WIT can excel and distinguish itself in all areas technological, we might see a brain influx into the region for the first time. Play to our strengths and all that.

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, to be honest, I think it's unfair that taxpayers who don't go to university have to cough up for those who do, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Definitely a different thread and maybe your idealogy/theory is right, I certainly don't know, but in practice they are and as I said previously, I just feel our region is currently at a disadvantage.

djpbarry

Psychedelic wrote: »

Page vi - the figure is actually €97.6m

Ok, I see it now. So that’s €97.6 million, up from about €65.5 million. However, some of the assumptions made to arrive at that figure are optimistic to say the least (undergraduate student numbers are projected to increase by 40%, for example) and little or no justification for these assumptions is given. I would also say that including items such as “research expenditure” in this assessment is not exactly rigorous for two reasons. Firstly, research in Ireland is almost entirely publicly funded. Secondly, very little of that research expenditure will be spent in the south east of Ireland.

One of the principle justifications for the increased economic impact is a greater focus on R&D in the new university. That’s fine, I just don’t understand why re-branding as a university is necessary in order to have a greater focus on R&D?

Nolanger

Where are all these Waterford University graduates going to find work, the local call centre?

fricatus

Nolanger wrote: »

Where are all these Waterford University graduates going to find work, the local call centre?

The same place WIT graduates get work these days... Australia!

Seriously though, one of the main reasons put forward for having a university is that the IDA etc. would be in a better position to sell the region to foreign investors if there was a university here. This was quoted in Tueseday's report in the Irish Times:

The Irish Times wrote:

After the collapse of the TalkTalk call centre with the loss of 575 jobs in October, Mr Hogan and IDA chief executive Barry O’Leary argued that a university in the southeast could transform the region’s troubled economy.

Nolanger

A bit like the new expensive railway system in the West of Ireland that carries no passengers but will no doubt develop the region

fricatus

Nolanger wrote: »

A bit like the new expensive railway system in the West of Ireland that carries no passengers but will no doubt develop the region

You may sneer, but the difference is that there are a quarter of a million people within 45 minutes of Waterford who could do with having access to top-tier education.

It's a bit more than "build it and they will come". It's more like "build it for f**k's sake, we've been waiting here for 40 years!"

Sully

In the event it does fail though, I wonder what the complaint will be. If the government set it up in the South East, including Waterford as a main hub, and it does nothing extra beneficial -- the government delivered on a request. Whats the fault? Will the usual tradition of blaming the government kick in or will it be a simply be an admission "We got it wrong"?

nkay1985

Sully wrote: »

In the event it does fail though, I wonder what the complaint will be. If the government set it up in the South East, including Waterford as a main hub, and it does nothing extra beneficial -- the government delivered on a request. Whats the fault? Will the usual tradition of blaming the government kick in or will it be a simply be an admission "We got it wrong"?

But sure that won't be able to be judged until after this government's term, possibly well after. If it falls through, the obvious complaint will be that they didn't deliver on a promise. If they deliver the technological university, then they'll have come through on what's in the program for government but it could still be done badly. If there's a fault with the new setup, who do you propose would be at fault?

Sully

nkay1985 wrote: »

But sure that won't be able to be judged until after this government's term, possibly well after. If it falls through, the obvious complaint will be that they didn't deliver on a promise. If they deliver the technological university, then they'll have come through on what's in the program for government but it could still be done badly. If there's a fault with the new setup, who do you propose would be at fault?

Wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't done right tbh, but if it was. A lot of people think it wont make a difference to the South East. Just idle thought really.

merlante

Sully wrote: »

I think a merger with Carlow could be a good idea. Some of their departments and courses are a lot better than what is offered here in WIT. Every year I hear students compare certain departments and courses to that offered in Carlow, and everybody says Carlow offers a much better course.

I wouldn't be comfortable with WIT getting University on their own, and I think a merger is the best way forward not just for the students (which we seem to forget about) but the whole South East.

That's pure speculation and anecdotal evidence in fairness. I'm pretty sure, without going to the bother of digging up figures, that WIT staff are better qualified and WIT has more demand for students, which should add up to higher standards in general.

Your statement that you "wouldn't be comfortable with WIT getting University on their own" is bizarre in the extreme, as if WIT and Carlow were perfect compliments of each other, just waiting for the day when they'd come together to become a university. This is hardly the case, and will result in the loss of an IoT to the region in exchange for something that will initially not fully equate to a one of the 7 existing universities. So the south east remains at a loss if Carlow is brought into the mix. And with Carlow in, certain metrics of the resulting university are likely to go down. Do you think there is any chance at all that you might just be playing the party tune here?

We'll welcome the merger with open arms, because it's progress, but it's highly unlikely to improve quality and will almost certainly have far reaching political consequences, and if not handled correctly, will have the counties of the region even more at each other's throats than they have been previously. How in the name of god are they going to divvy up the courses to everyone's satisfaction, and will we end up with two lopsided campuses where the twain never meet, or alternate years in different campuses! The sensible option would be for Carlow to handle certs and diplomas/ordinary degrees and feed the Waterford campus, but will that happen? Probably not.

Note the The Kilkenny Advertiser article, University status for the southeast in final stages. Looks kind of strange in that Carlow is always mentioned before WIT, as if both IoTs are on a par. The reality, that WIT will be the core and strongest part of any technological university, is something that our neighbours are happy to overlook, especially with big Phil in the driving seat. So whilst I'm delighted that a university will be delivered for the region, and while the proposal is an infinitely better idea than a merger with Cork IT, saying that the circumstances are ideal is ridiculous. Fact is, this merger is only to get the whole thing sold in Dublin: the technological university will only happen on the back of two IoTs being given up in the exchange (resulting in net one less institution).

Sully

Your a bit biased merlante, you work/worked for WIT.

Nobody is saying that Carlow is superior to WIT. But in many courses and some departments, they are.

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Your a bit biased merlante, you work/worked for WIT.

Nobody is saying that Carlow is superior to WIT. But in many courses and some departments, they are.

No, I don't.

Why not answer my points about your comment that you "wouldn't be comfortable with WIT getting University on their own"?

Sully

Sorry, perhaps I was mistaken. I wont comment further as to protect your privacy.

As for my comment re:WIT. Funnily enough a lot of WIT Students are divided on the University issue for WIT. I am unsure if WIT would really be a very good University on its own, and merging with other smaller successful colleges might strengthen its position and offer an even better class of service and education.

There are departments and course in WIT that are very weak, despite being new. A lot of courses in WIT will clash with Carlow. WIT is stronger in some departments and courses while Carlow is far superior to WIT in other areas. If WIT went it alone, it means perhaps an improved lecturing experience and more funding to improve services but I cant see it addressing some of the backend areas and courses which are simply poorly designed and not run correctly.

nkay1985

I still find it amazing that we're going to merge with Carlow. It really came out of left field, didn't it? Even with the motorway, we're still quite far apart. I wonder how they're planning on doing it? I wonder do they even have a plan for it?

dayshah

Sully wrote: »

Carlow is far superior to WIT in other areas.

Which areas?

A merger with carlow won't work, its just too far away. To save money the government can merge cit and ucc. We have a chance for a rrally good campus if the waterford crystal site is bought.

Anyway, the case that has to be made is how i it good for the country, not us. No one else cares about the €97 million that we would benefit. How much dole.money would be saved if we got it and tax generated?

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Sorry, perhaps I was mistaken. I wont comment further as to protect your privacy.

As for my comment re:WIT. Funnily enough a lot of WIT Students are divided on the University issue for WIT. I am unsure if WIT would really be a very good University on its own, and merging with other smaller successful colleges might strengthen its position and offer an even better class of service and education.

There are departments and course in WIT that are very weak, despite being new. A lot of courses in WIT will clash with Carlow. WIT is stronger in some departments and courses while Carlow is far superior to WIT in other areas. If WIT went it alone, it means perhaps an improved lecturing experience and more funding to improve services but I cant see it addressing some of the backend areas and courses which are simply poorly designed and not run correctly.

While there may be specific areas that Carlow beats WIT in -- which remains to be properly evaluated -- HEA metrics, such as % staff with PhDs, publication metrics, etc., would likely be lower across the board in an amalgamation. Masters and PhD students as a % of the student body would be much lower. These some of criteria have been mentioned as criteria for upgrade.

The other obvious point is that there will be no IoT in the south east in addition to the university, so it's not like nothing is lost.

merlante

nkay1985 wrote: »

I still find it amazing that we're going to merge with Carlow. It really came out of left field, didn't it? Even with the motorway, we're still quite far apart. I wonder how they're planning on doing it? I wonder do they even have a plan for it?

It's part of the proposal for a university of the south east, which was always about Waterford and Carlow ITs. It's a good idea to keep it in the region. I personally think that the best/only good way of doing this is make Carlow a feeder for Waterford but I can't see it flying politically.

The point of the merger is that the government can sell it to the education elites and the tax payer by saying 'ah sure the upgrade won't cost much straight away and sure look, don't we have one less institute of technology'.

By the way, just to be clear, I'd take this deal in a heartbeat if it is/was the only deal on the table.

Nolanger

Waterford needs to build its own IFSC for computer/technology companies. Otherwise those graduates from the new university will leave the city for good. Also, when the points go up for this new university where will the Waterford school leavers with 200 points go? A lot of current WIT student wouldn't have enough points to get into this new Waterford Uni.

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

Waterford needs to build its own IFSC for computer/technology companies. Otherwise those graduates from the new university will leave the city for good. Also, when the points go up for this new university where will the Waterford school leavers with 200 points go? A lot of current WIT student wouldn't have enough points to get into this new Waterford Uni.

Firstly, I wouldn't assume that there would be much 'improvement' in quality, in computing, which is already a strong area in WIT, probably on a par with many of the existing universities. Numbers probably would go up a little bit as people become more confident of getting a top tier education after the upgrade, but I don't think you're talking about 2/3 times the number of graduates, just maybe a 30% increase over a few years. You'll probably get a natural increase one way or the other with IT being so hot at the moment. Plenty of jobs in this sector, even jobs going in Waterford.

Secondly, technological universities will almost certainly have to maintain certificate and diploma/ordinary degree programmes, which will have lower entry requirements. It will effectively be a technological university and an institute of technology (as-we-know-it-in-Ireland -- NOT MIT/Caltech) rolled into one.

In general, I'm not going to shed too many tears if standards rise, and 200 points isin't enough to get into certain courses. 200 points is a pretty weak level for areas like computing or engineering, and maybe it's not fair to admit people at that level anyway, if they are likely to struggle. College is not for everyone. But I suspect that most people would be capable of hitting 300+ points if they worked really hard for their leaving cert.

Nolanger

They're going to have to offer a degree in Computer science and not just courses like Applied computing and Information technology. A computer science degree is what distinguishes a university from an institute of technology. A course like this usually requires honours maths in the leaving cert. Most students with 200 to 300 points wouldn't even get into second year doing a computer science degree. This is the standard a 'University of technology' requires.

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

They're going to have to offer a degree in Computer science and not just courses like Applied computing and Information technology. A computer science degree is what distinguishes a university from an institute of technology. A course like this usually requires honours maths in the leaving cert. Most students with 200 to 300 points wouldn't even get into second year doing a computer science degree. This is the standard a 'University of technology' requires.

I'm not convinced that there is a substantial difference between computer science courses and applied computing/computer applications courses, content-wise or quality-wise. Maybe there should be, but I don't think there is. Maybe the latter courses are a bit more applied, but only marginally so, and that's arguably a good thing. DCU, for one, do computer applications, and have never been tempted to "upgrade" to computer science. Engineering always looks for a higher C3 in Maths but I've never heard of it in the sciences. And that C3 requirements only exists because courses want IEI accreditation.

The overall point, though, which we seem to agree on, is that students studying computing coming in with 200 points are in for a world of pain *unless* they really didn't bother their arse for the leaving cert. In any case, I doubt that it would be significantly easier to get a computing degree in WIT than a computer science degree elsewhere, particularly a 2.1 or higher.

Nolanger

Those computer courses are dumbed down degrees for second-rate colleges. No wonder there are so many IT jobs available in this country that can't be filled. Ever wonder why? Because most of these jobs require a level similar to the standard of computer science graduates. Practically every IT employer/agency/bank would rate a "computer science" degree over a ****ty Information technology/Multimedia applications/Applied computing degree.

Grindylow

@Nolanger

No computer science degree in Ireland requires a HC3. You can get into all of them with ordinary level maths.

Nolanger

@grindylow - our top uni requires honours maths for computer science entry
http://www.scss.tcd.ie/assets/resources/bacsl-brochure.pdf

Grindylow

Nolanger wrote: »

@grindylow - our top uni requires honours maths for computer science entry
http://www.scss.tcd.ie/assets/resources/bacsl-brochure.pdf

TCD is regarded as one of the worst unis to do computer science in actually, their facilities are lacking behind what other unis where that requirement doesn't stand.