Waterford University discussion

dayshah

Look, this isn't a WIT issue. There are courses that should be maths intensive across the country, but the universities and ITs dumb them down to make them more attractive to students (and less attractive to employers). This is one reason why we need to attract so many foreigners to do these jobs (another being that we need native tongue foreign language speakers for lots of roles in a European HQ).

There is a fairly easy solution, give double points for maths (at least for science and engineering subjects).

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

Those computer courses are dumbed down degrees for second-rate colleges. No wonder there are so many IT jobs available in this country that can't be filled. Ever wonder why? Because most of these jobs require a level similar to the standard of computer science graduates. Practically every IT employer/agency/bank would rate a "computer science" degree over a ****ty Information technology/Multimedia applications/Applied computing degree.

That's nonsense. I know plenty of people who have done engineering and subjects like physics and work in computer jobs. It's rarely a problem for employers. Actual computer science, as in Turing, Dijkstra, etc., is not important for 99% of all computer jobs. Besides, computer 'science' isn't a science anyway because it's not empirical, philosophy of computing or computational logic would be more like it, and put like that, you can see that few employers are interested in these 'skills'. Really employers are looking for software engineering, and that is usually picked up quickly by people with technical degrees, although the area is probably getting more specialised over time. I have never heard anyone make this distinction between computer science and applications that you are making, and I have worked in the area for years.

What a bank would make out of your argument I don't know. I think they'd just be happy with someone who could do the job. I know for a fact that even self-taught web programmers are being hired in Waterford right now.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Look, this isn't a WIT issue. There are courses that should be maths intensive across the country, but the universities and ITs dumb them down to make them more attractive to students (and less attractive to employers). This is one reason why we need to attract so many foreigners to do these jobs (another being that we need native tongue foreign language speakers for lots of roles in a European HQ).

There is a fairly easy solution, give double points for maths (at least for science and engineering subjects).

This is very true. The universities and IoTs will do anything for get students and anything to keep them. It's pretty pathetic. That's why they constantly undertake missions to China. There seems to be a bizarre disconnect between what happens at the leaving cert and 3rd level at the moment, with the decline of maths. I can't understand it. Maths was always a good way to get points if you were good at it, rather than having to learn off a biology book or something.

We don't actually have to do anything with the points, which, in many/most cases, are indirectly controlled by colleges anyway, by dynamically altering the 'places available' to suit incoming demand in order to set a points entry point. There is also matriculation. You can actually say, as they do in engineering, that you need a minimum HC3 in maths (requirement of IEI). But they won't do it because the numbers coming in would collapse. As it is, colleges are doing everything they possibly can to provide alternative entry routes for those without the HC3 in engineering. The excuse they give is that students may not have realised at the time what they were giving up by doing pass, say, but really, it's dumbing down to prop up numbers. I doubt any IoT or university is completely immune to these problems except maybe TCD, who I think have capped their numbers.

Nolanger

A uni isn't judged on the number of graduates who get a job. It's about the research they do, publishing papers, and having highly qualified staff with PHDs which WIT is has a shortage. Waterford uni will have to move away from these silly computing courses and move into areas like computer science. It's not about 'education for all' or having dumbed down pass rates anymore . Merlante you're talking rubbish if you think companies are just interested in self-taught web developers. No respectable university's computer department would teach that stuff anyway. That's for FÁS/Solas.

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

A uni isn't judged on the number of graduates who get a job. It's about the research they do, publishing papers, and having highly qualified staff with PHDs which WIT is has a shortage. Waterford uni will have to move away from these silly computing courses and move into areas like computer science. It's not about 'education for all' or having dumbed down pass rates anymore . Merlante you're talking rubbish if you think companies are just interested in self-taught web developers. No respectable university's computer department would teach that stuff anyway. That's for FÁS/Solas.

Firstly, this is not the economy to be picky. Anything at all out of a packet of cornflakes will get you some kind of a job in web programming. There is no recession in IT.

Secondly, I mentioned that DCU has a Computer Applications course. DCU does serious research, and the CA course teaches computer science, just with a supposedly applied focus -- but as I said, there's basically no difference.

Thirdly, universities are about teaching as well as research, plain and simple.

Companies are not looking for people who can't code, and all too often "computer scientists", and other applied computing graduates, are completely inept when they leave college and require significant on the job training. There is little or no demand for extra "science" just people who can write software.

Max Powers

Irish Times 23/1/12
ANY GOVERNMENT plan to establish a new university in the southeast makes no sense when the current system is seriously underfunded and battling for its survival, according to the seven university presidents.
In a confidential discussion paper – due to be considered by the college heads this morning – the presidents warn it would be “reckless” to pursue radical changes to higher education “when the survival of the system is under threat”.
The document – seen by The Irish Times – says any change to the higher education system must recognise “the very poor and deteriorating financial position” of the university sector. The establishment of new technological universities will only “give rise to additional costs and fragmentation of research”.
Several college heads are expected to voice their anger about the proposed new technological university (TU) for the southeast at their meeting in DCU this morning. Both Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan and Minister for Public Service Expenditure and Reform Brendan Howlin are backing moves which would merge the institutes of technology in Waterford and Carlow and establish a new technological university of the southeast.
One senior university figure said yesterday: “This whole process is being driven by local politics instead of education priorities; we cannot allow it to happen.”
However, supporters in the southeast, who have campaigned for a university for over a decade, say the move could reinvigorate the troubled local economy.
The Higher Education Authority will shortly finalise new criteria governing the establishment of a TU. Once these are approved by Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn, the institutes in Waterford and Carlow will apply for TU status.
In the Dáil last week Mr Quinn stressed that rigorous criteria would apply. “There will be no political interference from my department or me on that matter, otherwise we will devalue the entire third-level sector in this country.”
In their paper the presidents say there is “no persuasive evidence that the demand for quality, advanced technical education cannot be met within the existing system of seven universities and 14 institutes of technology”.
It says a significant “re-engineering” would be required to bring many ITs up to the standard expected of universities or highly regarded technological universities in other countries.
The research paper points to the relatively low number of PhD students in the institutes when compared to the university sector. It acknowledges, however, that Waterford IT, Cork IT and DIT are different from other institutes in terms of both overall scale and involvement in research and graduate education.
The presidents stress how the funding crisis is the most important issue facing the sector in delivering on its internal goals and on external expectations.
“We know that the system is seriously underfunded. Within the system, there are indications that the IoT sector is relatively better funded than the universities. Therefore, any plans to establish new universities cannot result in a further hollowing out or cannibalisation of university funding.
“This issue needs to be addressed at an early stage with detailed, costed plans for any structural changes and transparency on how [and from what sources] those plans are to be resourced.”
The paper points out how current funding for universities is set to fall by a cumulative 6 per cent to 2015, despite record student demand. There is no indication, it says, that any additional increases in the student charge – if they are introduced – will do any more than offset reductions in exchequer funding.
“It follows that priority must be given to the survival of the system, so policy needs to address this first. Any changes which are introduced need to demonstrably add value. Even before this they must pass the test of first doing no harm to the existing system.”
The paper also suggests there may not be sufficient students with the skills in maths and the sciences to fill courses in any new technological universities. Addressing this issue may require the introduction of points floors for particular courses and/or more rigorous subject specific requirements, it says.
One university president said: “We are not opposed to new universities per se, but they must be a clear economic and social case – and the funding issue must be addressed.”
The paper was prepared by the Irish Universities Association for the HEA.

merlante

All politics. It's vested interests from the south east versus vested interests in the university sector, with no referee. Other countries with proper planning would never have allowed this issue to develop in the first place, and would have planned a more equitable distribution of university education.

Anyway, there is an amusing jumble of complaints in there, including,

"We know that the system is seriously underfunded. Within the system, there are indications that the IoT sector is relatively better funded than the universities. Therefore, any plans to establish new universities cannot result in a further hollowing out or cannibalisation of university funding."

So here we have university heads -- and/or Sean Flynn of the Irish Times -- on the one hand telling us that universities are cheaper to run than IoTs, and on the other hand implying that abolishing 2 IoTs and creating a university would be a cannibalisation of university funding.

This is the mindset of the greedy pigs at the trough not wanting to share, momentarily oblivious to the fact that the new pig is bringing more than his share of the food with him.

In their terror of having more competition in the university sector, they forget that a merging of WIT and Carlow IT and an upgrade to technological university represents a transfer of wealth from the IoT to the university sector. In fact, according to them, a disproportionate transfer of wealth, since IoTs are supposedly more expensive to run.

If and when these two IoTs merge and upgrade, expect the tune to change rapidly from "we don't want another university" to "ah, that university is not the same as us, we're on another level and deserve prioritisation". Both are shameless money arguments.

mike65

I'm just shocked that CIT hasn't issued a statement demanding a reconfiguration to University status.

edit Anyone listening to RTE radio?

jmcc

Max Powers wrote: »

Irish Times 23/1/12
ANY GOVERNMENT plan to establish a new university in the southeast makes no sense when the current system is seriously underfunded and battling for its survival, according to the seven university presidents.

I'm sure that in the interests of the economy these seven dwarves will have their salaries cut by half and the savings donated to funding the universities. Let's see how they whinge then!

Regards...jmcc

djpbarry

Nolanger wrote: »

They're going to have to offer a degree in Computer science and not just courses like Applied computing and Information technology. A computer science degree is what distinguishes a university from an institute of technology.

DIT offer a degree course in computer science.

djpbarry

merlante wrote: »

The sensible option would be for Carlow to handle certs and diplomas/ordinary degrees and feed the Waterford campus, but will that happen?

Seems to me that would result in a serious duplication of resources?

merlante wrote: »

Engineering always looks for a higher C3 in Maths but I've never heard of it in the sciences. And that C3 requirements only exists because courses want IEI accreditation.

No, that requirement exists because anyone without honours leaving cert maths is going to struggle in an engineering degree course. It used to be that the minimum requirement was a B3.

merlante wrote: »

Actual computer science, as in Turing, Dijkstra, etc., is not important for 99% of all computer jobs.

I think that probably depends on what you mean by “computer jobs”. I dare say that, given the choice, the likes of Google would be leaning more towards somebody who is familiar with the Turing Test versus someone who can do a bit of PHP.

merlante

djpbarry wrote: »

Seems to me that would result in a serious duplication of resources?

Less of a duplication than two separate IoTs, but yes, there would be some duplication. The alternative is a kind of bipolar institution where course areas are divvied out to Waterford and Carlow and the two never meet, which I think compromises an institution. I don't think there is a perfect solution to this problem.

djpbarry wrote: »

No, that requirement exists because anyone without honours leaving cert maths is going to struggle in an engineering degree course. It used to be that the minimum requirement was a B3.

Having worked in an electronic engineering dept in a university, I know the lengths colleges are going to to bypass this perfectly sane C3 requirement, which probably should be higher. It's there for accreditation, because the IEI, at least, seem to hold themselves to a higher ethical standard than the universities who will do anything to increase intake. But I agree with you, engineering is very challenging.

djpbarry wrote: »

I think that probably depends on what you mean by “computer jobs”. I dare say that, given the choice, the likes of Google would be leaning more towards somebody who is familiar with the Turing Test versus someone who can do a bit of PHP.

Well those are fairly extreme ends of the spectrum. Google would be more than happy with any computer applications graduate if they were any good and had good ideas (and satisfied whatever other faddish requirements a company has when it earns revenue automatically from mouse clicks).

Nolanger

Computer applications graduates are only useful if there are plenty of local companies looking for yellow-pack progammers. If Waterford wants to have a lasting local industry in technology then they need computer scientists who can set up new companies creating the next generation of software applications. Most of these people will need honours maths in the LC.

Bards

and so it begins, One for everyone in the audience

We will be back to square one again when WRTC was upgraded to WIT all the RTC's became IT's overnight thanks to CRTC insisting that it become CIT

extract from http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672113.html

Five more institutes of technology in the Border, Midlands and West (BMW) region said they were at an “advanced stage’’ of discussions regarding the establishment of a technological university.

Given Government approval, they say a Border Midlands West Technological University (BMW TU) would create the largest higher education institution in the State with 27,000 students. A steering group comprising senior staff at Athlone Institute of Technology (AIT), Dundalk Institute of Technology, Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology, Letterkenny Institute of Technology and Institute of Technology, Sligo, is directing the negotiations.

mike65

Apparently its been in the works for 10 years, but I've certainly never seen/heard it mentioned before today. Stand by for a Limerick/Cork announcement.

ToxicPaddy

Yup, back to a one for everyone in the audience as previously said.

The only thing going to change are the signs on the outside of the buildings, the letter heads and their websites. Everything else will remain the same, typical bloody country.

Oooooooh lets rename it and no one will know the difference :rolleyes: :mad:

O Riain

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

Yup, back to a one for everyone in the audience as previously said.

The only thing going to change are the signs on the outside of the buildings, the letter heads and their websites. Everything else will remain the same, typical bloody country.

Oooooooh lets rename it and no one will know the difference :rolleyes: :mad:

I genuinely think that one of the critera will be that there be no university already serving the area(asside from dublin). This would put the midlands in a very inbetween situation. I guess another one will have to be that there is a main institution with student numbers comparable to a university. If they simply rename it and do nothing then there will be uproar but they are going to make sure that nobody else gets one as the funding just isnt there.

Psychedelic

You'd like to think that the ministers and people deciding the criteria for a technological university will have seen this coming a mile away and will set the criteria so that's impossible for the smaller ITs to get TU status. If those ITs can end up getting TU status then the whole thing is just a farce.

Professey Chin

Guramoogah wrote: »

If, not when, but if any form of University of the SouthEast were to be created then the headquarters would surely be located in Kilkenny. Waterford and Carlow ITs are 70km apart. Under the Croke Park Agreement, redeployment of staff is limited to 45km so therefore Kilkenny would be the logical location for the headquarters. WIT, Carlow IT and a location in Wexford would become regional outposts.

But theres nothing in Kilkenny so that makes no sense.

Hey....whered that post go >_>

There we go. Damn time travel

Guramoogah

If, not when, but if any form of University of the SouthEast were to be created then the headquarters would surely be located in Kilkenny. Waterford and Carlow ITs are 70km apart. Under the Croke Park Agreement, redeployment of staff is limited to 45km so therefore Kilkenny would be the logical location for the headquarters. WIT, Carlow IT and a location in Wexford would become regional outposts.

It would be a big feather in Phil Hogan's cap to have all the administration staff located in Kilkenny, and Brendan Howlin would be glad to be able to create a third-level establishment in Wexford to go along with the VEC headquarters. It's got sweet FA to do with education, it's all to do with ministers trying to safeguard their seats in the next general election.

ToxicPaddy

Guramoogah wrote: »

If, not when, but if any form of University of the SouthEast were to be created then the headquarters would surely be located in Kilkenny. Waterford and Carlow ITs are 70km apart. Under the Croke Park Agreement, redeployment of staff is limited to 45km so therefore Kilkenny would be the logical location for the headquarters. WIT, Carlow IT and a location in Wexford would become regional outposts.

It would be a big feather in Phil Hogan's cap to have all the administration staff located in Kilkenny, and Brendan Howlin would be glad to be able to create a third-level establishment in Wexford to go along with the VEC headquarters. It's got sweet FA to do with education, it's all to do with ministers trying to safeguard their seats in the next general election.

A little off topic but I wouldnt hold my breath on the Croke Park agreement staying in place for much longer, not if the Troika get their way. I can see if being scrapped in the next 12 months at most. Its completely unrealistic in the current climate. As for basing anything in Kilkenny doesnt make much sense when there isn't even a Carlow IT campus in Kilkenny anymore, but a single course run in conjunction with NUI Maynooth in St Kierans college.

You would be relocating staff from both Carlow and Waterford to a new location and having the cost of essentially setting up a new Campus or Admin HQ which makes absolutely no sense economically.

As it is, funds will be tight if this does go ahead so I cant see something like that being accepted.

Psychedelic

Very good blog article rebutting the university presidents' opposition to the technological university upgrade:
http://normanwyse.com/cms/node/29

I was also just reading John Halligan's press release in the Waterford Today, he is also against the merger with Carlow IT:
http://www.waterford-today.ie/waterford-today-news/15383-john-halligan-15383.html

comeraghs

that Phil Hogan can not be trusted ..... this amalgamation is just a ploy to turn WIT into some jobs in Kilkenny town.

WIT should become a University, Carlow IT should stay an IT. BUT that makes sense so it's pretty unlikely to happen.

Guramoogah

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/local/university_in_south_east_would_not_hit_other_third_level_institutions_1_3450398

University in South East ‘would not hit other third-level institutions’

“ ... one local Oxford-educated man argues that Kilkenny and the South East can benefit from a university in the region and add to rather than detract from the current university system.

In a letter on Page 18 of this week’s Kilkenny People, Dr Michael Conway outlines his vision for such a technical university. The pending closure of the St Francis Abbey Brewery, while terrible news for those employed there, means that Kilkenny must move forward and take the opportunity to add something that will create jobs and boost life in the city. And that “something” should be “central city campus for Arts and Media based faculties in Kilkenny,” he says.

Pointing to efforts dating as far back as the 17th century to set up a university in Kilkenny, he says now is an ideal time to fulfil that vision... ”

Psychedelic

I forgot to post this earlier, but it looks like the Irish Times education editor was trawling this thread for comments.

Changing the name wont make a blind bit of difference because thats all it is: a change of name. Technological University of the South East = Regional Technical College with delusions of grandeur. – Guramoogah, boards.ie

As others have said, Im not really sure this is a good idea? Whats wrong with being an IT? – djpbarry, boards.ie

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0124/1224310664503.html

dayshah

comeraghs wrote: »

that Phil Hogan can not be trusted ..... this amalgamation is just a ploy to turn WIT into some jobs in Kilkenny town.

WIT should become a University, Carlow IT should stay an IT. BUT that makes sense so it's pretty unlikely to happen.

Well that's the natural logic behind a 'University of the South East'. It would be way more efficient to have everything on one campus, and WIT has the opportunity to do that by buying the Waterford Crystal site.

I heard it would cost €5million, and then money for decontamination. €5m is only €100 per Waterford City resident. I'd be happy to pay that to secure the Waterford Crystal site for the future (they don't need to develop it now, but buy it before someone else gets it, and then decontaminate it when they have the money).

Nolanger

dayshah wrote: »

I heard it would cost €5million, and then money for decontamination. €5m is only €100 per Waterford City resident.

Household charge or a university

dayshah

Nolanger wrote: »

Household charge or a university

We would need €100 per person, so it would be about €300 per household I suppose.

It would be well worth the money though, regardless of whether it becomes a university or remains an IT.

Think of it, how many 3rd level institutions have a compact campus???

djpbarry

Psychedelic wrote: »

Very good blog article rebutting the university presidents' opposition to the technological university upgrade:
http://normanwyse.com/cms/node/29

I’d say it’s a pretty poor rebuttal. Take this for example:

Now let's imagine the government gives no extra funding whatsoever to the sector as a whole, and merely diverts the funds from pre-existing universities to the new south east university. Given that, how much of a percentage decline in recurrent funding could each university expect on average? My calculations give 4.2%. This is essentially an upper maximum of the hurt, given a combination of really bad outcomes to the upgrade process and absolutely no additional funding forthcoming from the government to the sector. The real number will probably be much smaller.

That looks to me like nothing more than pure optimism. How was that 4.2% figure arrived at? Seems like a terribly precise estimate considering it’s based on figures which are, by the author’s admission, plucked from thin air.

Guramoogah wrote: »

University in South East ‘would not hit other third-level institutions’“ ...one local Oxford-educated man...

What a bizarre piece of journalism.

comeraghs

well it seems that every I.T. in the country has applied for an upgrade! Hope this doesn't turn out like the last time .....