Waterford University discussion

Psychedelic

Saw on Twitter earlier that Minister Quinn was on Newstalk today and he said something about the technological university upgrade taking 5-10 years to implement and he is waiting on yet another report from the HEA - anybody hear the show?

mike65

http://media.newstalk.ie/podcast/28467/popup

nkay1985

mike65 wrote: »

http://media.newstalk.ie/podcast/28467/popup

Cliff notes for those of us that can't currently listen?

jmcc

nkay1985 wrote: »

Cliff notes for those of us that can't currently listen?

Same crap different century.

Regards...jmcc

mike65

Just now RTE radio discussion about re-organising third level with some bod from CIT and some bod from DIT (I think) . Anyone from WIT? Not on your life!

O Riain

Article in the Munster about the W.I.T being at an advanced stage to buy the old Waterford Crystal site. Lot of talk and speculation around town about this so wondering is it just the Munster express fuelling a non existent fire or is there some truth to it. Can anyone put up the full article/any info they might have on the situation.
Article
http://www.munster-express.ie/front-page-news/general-stories/wit-moves-to-buy-kilbarry-glass-site/

Sully

O Riain wrote: »

Article in the Munster about the W.I.T being at an advanced stage to buy the old Waterford Crystal site. Lot of talk and speculation around town about this so wondering is it just the Munster express fuelling a non existent fire or is there some truth to it. Can anyone put up the full article/any info they might have on the situation.
Article
http://www.munster-express.ie/front-page-news/general-stories/wit-moves-to-buy-kilbarry-glass-site/

It was something that the Young Fine Gael branch in WIT spoke with the former president about, when the site was up for sale. It was something of interest but the money wasn't there. This seems to be bypassing the state and instead using other methods to raise the cash.

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

It was something that the Young Fine Gael branch in WIT spoke with the former president about, when the site was up for sale. It was something of interest but the money wasn't there. This seems to be bypassing the state and instead using other methods to raise the cash.

What is the actual cost of the site do you know?

Sully

O Riain wrote: »

What is the actual cost of the site do you know?

Was never told.

fricatus

From the Irish Times today.

Another bloody report? Are they ever going to do anything? Nice to see that it stands behind the idea of a university for Waterford...

Can't see this being implemented though, at least not in full - UCD and Trinity merged? It would probably be a good idea, but there are too many powerful interests that would definitely get in the way.

The Irish Times wrote:

Merger of Trinity and UCD urged in top-level report

THE PUBLICATION of a major report on higher education, which recommends the merger of University College Dublin and Trinity College Dublin among a series of sweeping changes to the higher education system, has been delayed.

University sources claim the controversial report – commissioned by the Higher Education Authority (HEA) and carried out by an international panel of education experts – has been “shelved”. However, this was strongly refuted by official sources last night.

The report was due to be circulated among university presidents and other college heads yesterday but its release has been postponed after discussions between the HEA and the Department of Education.

Scheduled meetings between college heads, the HEA and the international panel – due early next month – have also been postponed to an unspecified date.

In a letter to university presidents and other college heads last Thursday, HEA chief executive Tom Boland said some further time was needed “for clarification on policy issues and for wider consultation”.

The report of the international panel, chaired by Prof Frans Van Vught, a Dutch academic specialising in education policy, proposes the State’s 20-plus higher education colleges should be consolidated into just six. It envisages a series of changes including the UCD-TCD merger and the creation of a national technological university with a campus in both Dublin and Waterford.

There is speculation that other changes in the unpublished report include the merger of DCU, NUI Maynooth, Athlone IT and Dundalk IT; the merger of NUI Galway with colleges in the region, the merger of all colleges based in Cork-Kerry and the merger of colleges based in Limerick.

In a letter to college heads earlier this month, Mr Boland says the report is designed to “provide an external perspective . . . on an optimal configuration of the Irish higher education system”.

The new report is much more radical than the National Strategy for Higher Education or the Hunt report last year. This backed the retention of existing universities and the establishment of new technological universities formed by mergers of various ITs.

One university source said last night: “We were asked to work within the Hunt report, which has been backed by [Minister for Education] Ruairí Quinn – we don’t need and don’t want another proposal.”

Unusually, the report was prepared without consultation with the colleges themselves. In his letter, Mr Boland says this approach “left the panel free to take a view which might challenge current thinking and offer alternative models of reform.”

In a statement to The Irish Times last night, the HEA said the changes proposed by the panel “is one particular way of addressing issues . . . It is not the only way in which this could be done, nor was it intended to imply this.”

The HEA also stressed that the radical changes proposed by the panel on rationalisation “does not accord with Government policy nor does it represent the views of the HEA”.

Prof Van Vught of the European Commission is a leading world authority on change management within higher education.

Other members include Prof Vin Massaro, Melbourne Graduate School of Education, Prof Lauritz B Holm Nielsen, rector of Aarhus University, and Eva Egron Polak, secretary general of the International Association of Universities. The panel worked solely on the basis of a portfolio of information and statistics about Irish higher education.

The report says a UCD-TCD merger would give the merged college the critical mass and expertise needed to secure a place among the world’s best-ranked universities. At present, Ireland is not represented among the top 100 universities in the prestigious Times Higher Education World Reputation Ranking.

In his letter Mr Boland stresses how the international panel report is just one element that will assist in “an overall reconfiguration of the higher education system.”

In this task the HEA will also be guided by submissions from the colleges themselves and from a forthcoming ESRI report that predicts a 25 per cent increase in student numbers by 2030.

The panel says its report is designed to ensure that institutes will be sufficiently large to be serious players in the global higher education community. They say their proposals would assist institutional diversity, expand capacity within constrained budgets and ensure less duplication, while also ensuring each institution will be of a sufficient size to sustain a comprehensive range of research programmes and teaching.

Junior

fricatus wrote: »

Can't see this being implemented though, at least not in full - UCD and Trinity merged? It would probably be a good idea, but there are too many powerful interests that would definitely get in the way.

Wouldn't be the first time they talked about mergering them ..

nkay1985

That makes for interesting reading alright. I'd have no problem with a Technological University with one campus in Waterford and another in Dublin if those other changes were to go through. It's simply not going to happen though.

Professey Chin

I expect another report to be commissioned to verify the validity of this report followed by a new report to check that reports feasibility.
Fcukin bureaucracy

Bards

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

I expect another report to be commissioned to verify the validity of this report followed by a new report to check that reports feasibility.
Fcukin bureaucracy

That's what you get when we have so many Ministers, Super Junior Ministers, Junior Ministers, Special Advisors,T.D,s, Mayors, County Councillors, City Councilors, Borough Councilors, Councilor Councils, Senators, Vested Interests, Hangers-on etc etc.

when all we need is a fraction of the above to have effetive government that can actually make decisions quickly.

mike65

Someone was musing on Newstalk (regarding a different topic) wondering why government doesn't just, ya' know govern! "Death by Committee" is the standard policy model in the modern age.

Sully

Wasn't this announced not long after the formation of the 31st Dail? It's not another report - the report is already done. The Minister wanted further investigation into the whole Technical University and how it could be implemented? Its a pretty big change, but its going on a bit long now at this stage - surely we have enough reports at this stage for the government to know exactly what to do, how to do it and when to do it?

I do think that the government probably don't want to release a wide ranging report of suggesting mergers which will seriously rock the apple cart and cause huge disruption and anger. But I personally think we have far to many Universities and a merger would be a good thing.

mccarthy37

Sully wrote: »

Wasn't this announced not long after the formation of the 31st Dail? It's not another report - the report is already done. The Minister wanted further investigation into the whole Technical University and how it could be implemented? Its a pretty big change, but its going on a bit long now at this stage - surely we have enough reports at this stage for the government to know exactly what to do, how to do it and when to do it?

I do think that the government probably don't want to release a wide ranging report of suggesting mergers which will seriously rock the apple cart and cause huge disruption and anger. But I personally think we have far to many Universities and a merger would be a good thing.

Wales has a population of about 1 million less than The Rep of Ireland but has 11 Universities compared to our seven.
As a mater of fact Ireland has less Universities per head of population than most of the countries in the EU.
I still believe that a University for the South East would be a major factor for growth in the region. At the present time sadly our biggest growth figures are in unemployment. We have become the forgotten city of Ireland where only as far back as the seventies we were the fourth city of Ireland now Galway has by far outstripped us in population and in growth. I wonder how did that come about.

mike65

Wales has half the population! But it should be noted that many students will be from England.

bullpost

The Irish Times had a centre page feature on Culture night recently.

It highlighted the main cities and what was happening.

Kilkenny and Belfast along with all the usual suspects were featured but no sign of Waterford.

Its only a little thing but perception can be important.

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Wales has a population of about 1 million less than The Rep of Ireland but has 11 Universities compared to our seven.
As a mater of fact Ireland has less Universities per head of population than most of the countries in the EU.
I still believe that a University for the South East would be a major factor for growth in the region. At the present time sadly our biggest growth figures are in unemployment. We have become the forgotten city of Ireland where only as far back as the seventies we were the fourth city of Ireland now Galway has by far outstripped us in population and in growth. I wonder how did that come about.

mccarthy37

mike65 wrote: »

Wales has half the population! But it should be noted that many students will be from England.

The same applies to Irish Universities there are many students from outside Ireland studying here. Pop. of Rep. of Ireland 4.487000. Wales 3.06 and Wales is not much bigger than Munster.

djpbarry

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Wales has a population of about 1 million less than The Rep of Ireland but has 11 Universities compared to our seven.

How many ITs does Ireland have? A lot?

Media999

Not this nonsense again. WIT will never be a university.

comeraghs

WIT will be a university! It's inevitable!

There are no good reasons, except those of vested interests in Cork & Dublin, as to why it shouldn't be!

It's in the national interest that it does become a Uni.

Media999

comeraghs wrote: »

WIT will be a university! It's inevitable!

There are no good reasons, except those of vested interests in Cork & Dublin, as to why it shouldn't be!

It's in the national interest that it does become a Uni.

Well good luck with that.

As much as id like it to be a Uni i know my kids will be having the same conversation in 20 years.

Sully

I think people need to stop with the lame duck argument of "Everyone else has it, so we should also". WIT should be upgraded on its own merits, not just because we are the only region without one.

It also has absolutely no national benefit. If it benefits the South East, we will be lucky.

fricatus

Sully wrote: »

I think people need to stop with the lame duck argument of "Everyone else has it, so we should also". WIT should be upgraded on its own merits, not just because we are the only region without one.

Well Sully, that's where I think you are completely and utterly wrong. That's like telling women they shouldn't worry their pretty little heads that there's an overwhelming majority of men in the world's boardrooms, or that it doesn't matter that they're under-represented in the world's parliaments.

We all pay taxes in this country, and the reason this social model holds together is that if you have a certain level of income, you pay a certain level of tax, and that tax is then distributed back in the form of services (street lights, water, fire brigade, hospitals, education) and subsidies (tax breaks, social welfare, pensions, etc.)

Everyone gets social welfare if they lose their job, or a pension if they reach a certain age level. The system is not perfect because it has to take account of many factors, but by and large it's fair.

What is not fair is a system whereby we in the south-east pay the same level of taxes as everyone else, but we simply do not benefit from the spending of those taxes in the same way as other parts of the country. Imagine if the south-east was the only region without streetlights, or running water! Why should a university be seen as any different? It's part of the national educational infrastructure, which we all pay for and which we're all entitled to expect!

Take a look at these figures:

South-west region (CK, KY) - population 664,534 - one university
South-east region (WD, WX, KK, TS, CW) - population 497,578 - no university
Western region (GY, RN, MO) - population 445,356 - one university
Mid-west region (LK, CE, TN) - 379,327 - one university

This is as blatant an example of discrimination as you will find anywhere!

Of course there's another argument that you can make, which is that out of seven universities in this state, four are in the Dublin area. As the population is split roughly one-third in the Dublin region and two-thirds in the rest of the country, you would have to have eight universities outside Dublin to make for a balanced provision of university education across the state! But we'll leave that for now...

We should have a university in Waterford, because the population level justifies it. It's as simple as that. The only feasible route to that goal is an upgrade of WIT, regardless of the college's own merits. If the college can't reach that goal because it's lacking in certain areas, then the government must do its job and make the necessary investments. This is our entitlement, based on the taxes we pay!

Sully wrote: »

It also has absolutely no national benefit. If it benefits the South East, we will be lucky.

Absolute nonsense. The corollary of that argument is that downgrading DCU to Ballymun Institute of Technology would do no harm to north Dublin. Do you seriously think that a university is neutral in terms of its socio-economic impact on an area? Come on!

daenerysstormborn3

Anyone else think that this kind of thing has an impact on WIT's chances?

http://www.thejournal.ie/waterford-it-president-spending-613363-Sep2012/

Few quotes from the article -

"Eight years later, non-pay spending had reached a peak of €634,308, with major spending on taxi firms, PR companies and flowers"

"A briefing note prepared by the college showed that non-pay expenditure between 2006 and 2010, the last five full calendar years of Byrne’s tenure, totalled €2.66 million."

mike65

Not in itself, the whole semi-state and publicly funded sector is awash with stories like this.

Its an ongoing disgrace mind you.

fuzzy dunlop

fricatus wrote: »

Western region (GY, RN, MO) - population 445,356 - one university
Mid-west region (LK, CE, TN) - 379,327 - one university

This is as blatant an example of discrimination as you will find anywhere!

Of course there's another argument that you can make, which is that out of seven universities in this state, four are in the Dublin area. As the population is split roughly one-third in the Dublin region and two-thirds in the rest of the country, you would have to have eight universities outside Dublin to make for a balanced provision of university education across the state! But we'll leave that for now...

We should have a university in Waterford, because the population level justifies it. It's as simple as that. The only feasible route to that goal is an upgrade of WIT, regardless of the college's own merits. If the college can't reach that goal because it's lacking in certain areas, then the government must do its job and make the necessary investments. This is our entitlement, based on the taxes we pay!




Absolute nonsense. The corollary of that argument is that downgrading DCU to Ballymun Institute of Technology would do no harm to north Dublin. Do you seriously think that a university is neutral in terms of its socio-economic impact on an area? Come on!

The Atitude of FG hacks here is astonishing. The fifth urban area of the country in the third most populous region and we have to justify everything despite the national benefit been a no brainer and presented here a thousand times. They talk a big talk about parochialism and yet present the behaviour of O'Reilly, Hogan and Howlin as par for the course just because they are cabinet ministers. You would also swear that Trinity and UCD and all the other Uni's grew organically out of the ground when the reality is that as far back as Elizabetehn times the Universities in Ireland without exception have been founded with State support and money.

SubBusted

What's the point in having a university when there are no jobs in Waterford?