Waterford University discussion

Figerty

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

Those are developer jobs not technician/customer care jobs... nothing philisophical about the jobs created. Red Hat bought out Feed Henry for somewhere between 60 and 80 million, it was founded by a WIT graduate a few years ago, there are a rake of start ups housed in Arc Labs at the moment with WIT graduates and thats the tip of the iceberg, most computing students want to make their own startups. Getting a Uni makes it easier to draw in money and get grants for this. Computing is only one example, do a bit of research.

Universities offer level 7s, you're arguments aren't applicable.

Every college with an incubator centre shouts about all the great success they have.. I'm not fooled by spin, as most people aren't either about the long term results.

Level 7,, with 60 academic credits per year are not mainstream degrees. You can't bat that way with 'a simple arguments aren't applicaple'. UL has one Level 7 programme and that is a legacy from Thomond college.Do your own research. I'll make it easy for you..

http://www2.cao.ie/points/l76.php Have a good long look at it...

Figerty

imacman wrote: »

This press release combined with the vitriolic interview they did on KCLR against WIT it actually looks like Carlow don't want a merger but want to look like the good boys in class and leave all the blame for this falling apart to WIT.

There are plenty studies out there that show that hostile take overs or mergers of third level institutes do not work.

It's quite clear that Carlow has decided that it will not go willingly and it also knows that the Government knows that hostile take overs won't work and is setting down a marker. The shot accross the bows of Waterford about financial management is a clever dig.

This merger is now dead in the water with the Carlow management.

fiachr_a

7upfree wrote: »

Chicken and egg situation. The availability of graduates will cause the tech companies to locate. Seeing as there's no university.........

Is that so? A university in Waterford that will certainly be the weakest in the country and be placed permanently between 500 and 1000 in the world rankings won't bring a slew of new technology companies to the region. They'll always pick Dublin/Belfast over somewhere like Waterford. Anyway, most brighter school leavers in Waterford will go to UCD/TCD to study something other than computers, and then they'll emigrate for good. A new university won't revitalise the region.

Fate Amenable To Change

Figerty wrote: »

Every college with an incubator centre shouts about all the great success they have.. I'm not fooled by spin, as most people aren't either about the long term results.

Level 7,, with 60 academic credits per year are not mainstream degrees. You can't bat that way with 'a simple arguments aren't applicaple'. UL has one Level 7 programme and that is a legacy from Thomond college.Do your own research. I'll make it easy for you..

http://www2.cao.ie/points/l76.php Have a good long look at it...

There is no spin, there is literally about two hundred people employed alone out there and it is increasing year on year. Given the average industrial wage which is an udnerestimate thats 8 million in to the local economy every year. Im doing a computing degree, there were at least 7 or 8 placements sorced out there rather than people going to Dublin or Cork. I also don;t know any other incubtor that has done s well as TSSG and Arclabs in the country for computing, many Unis and colleges are actualyl modelling their own ones on it now. Theyve been running for enarly 20 years now. What is spin aboutt hat I don't know. Added ot this you;ve startups like NearForm who are running the Nodeconf in Waterford http://www.nearform.com/nodecrunch/nodeconf-eu-waterford-means . It literally takes the p#ss to say there is spin there, it is a prime example of what funding can do, and this is why a Uni is wanted, not for name but for the investment.

Seeing as there is no IT to take up the shortfall of level 7 it would make no sense as to why they would remove courses when it is clearly acceptable to have it, even Trinity have level 7s. Not every Uni should be run the same, who is going to impose that these courses be cut.

Fate Amenable To Change

fiachr_a wrote: »

Is that so? A university in Waterford that will certainly be the weakest in the country and be placed permanently between 500 and 1000 in the world rankings won't bring a slew of new technology companies to the region. They'll always pick Dublin/Belfast over somewhere like Waterford. Anyway, most brighter school leavers in Waterford will go to UCD/TCD to study something other than computers, and then they'll emigrate for good. A new university won't revitalise the region.

It is a case of developing the college not just we wake up and have a top 100 Uni. The Business(PWC/big 4 don't take on people without capabilities.), Nursing, and Engineering departments are very well regard as well. This is about investment to ensure we progress not stay static. The technology companies are coming but we want to make their movement faster. Dublin is seen as way too expensive by a lot of multi-nationals at the moment and they would prefer to locate somewhere else where possible.

Figerty

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

There is no spin, there is literally about two hundred people employed alone out there and it is increasing year on year. Given the average industrial wage which is an udnerestimate thats 8 million in to the local economy every year. Im doing a computing degree, there were at least 7 or 8 placements sorced out there rather than people going to Dublin or Cork. I also don;t know any other incubtor that has done s well as TSSG and Arclabs in the country for computing, many Unis and colleges are actualyl modelling their own ones on it now. Theyve been running for enarly 20 years now. What is spin aboutt hat I don't know. Added ot this you;ve startups like NearForm who are running the Nodeconf in Waterford http://www.nearform.com/nodecrunch/nodeconf-eu-waterford-means . It literally takes the p#ss to say there is spin there, it is a prime example of what funding can do, and this is why a Uni is wanted, not for name but for the investment.

Seeing as there is no IT to take up the shortfall of level 7 it would make no sense as to why they would remove courses when it is clearly acceptable to have it, even Trinity have level 7s. Not every Uni should be run the same, who is going to impose that these courses be cut.

Realistically, how many of the incubator programmes are funded directly or indirectly from exchequer funds. These aren't real jobs as they are funded by the government. I'm not saying it isn't doing great work; but take a look at where the source of funding for these jobs really is. The PR spin is usually in this area. No different from any other Incubation centre.

"Universities offer level 7s, you're arguments aren't applicable." They don't in any serious manner. The Trinity example is an anomaly related to the dentistry school.

If a university has Level 7's (and Level 6's and apprentices) it will not be perceived as a serious university. If WIT ever gets the upgrade, then all the level 6 and 7's will be lost.

So where is that social inclusion responsibility going to land? I'm pretty sure that WIT was planing that for Carlow and they have rejected that.

Max Powers

fiachr_a wrote: »

Is that so? A university in Waterford that will certainly be the weakest in the country and be placed permanently between 500 and 1000 in the world rankings won't bring a slew of new technology companies to the region. They'll always pick Dublin/Belfast over somewhere like Waterford. Anyway, most brighter school leavers in Waterford will go to UCD/TCD to study something other than computers, and then they'll emigrate for good. A new university won't revitalise the region.

what you basing that on because all of the IDA and various other reports say that it would be a massive boost to job creation and attraction

Fate Amenable To Change

Figerty wrote: »

Realistically, how many of the incubator programmes are funded directly or indirectly from exchequer funds. These aren't real jobs as they are funded by the government. I'm not saying it isn't doing great work; but take a look at where the source of funding for these jobs really is. The PR spin is usually in this area. No different from any other Incubation centre.

"Universities offer level 7s, you're arguments aren't applicable." They don't in any serious manner. The Trinity example is an anomaly related to the dentistry school.

If a university has Level 7's (and Level 6's and apprentices) it will not be perceived as a serious university. If WIT ever gets the upgrade, then all the level 6 and 7's will be lost.

So where is that social inclusion responsibility going to land? I'm pretty sure that WIT was planing that for Carlow and they have rejected that.

Very little of the money is drawn from Govenrment more to do with industry and EU grants and thats for TSSG. All the startups stand on their own 2 feet so alla gruments for jobs still apply.

A uni can have elvel 7s WIT would have no reason tog et rid of them so they wouldn;t.

fricatus

fiachr_a wrote: »

A new university won't revitalise the region.

Max Powers wrote: »

what you basing that on because all of the IDA and various other reports say that it would be a massive boost to job creation and attraction

Good question...

Even if it didn't revitalise the region, it would certainly put something of a brake on all the recent slippage. A university is not a panacea for all our ills; just another piece in the jigsaw which we need to move forward.

People said the same about the M9 when it was built: "Huh? Where are all the jobs this was supposed to provide?" But they were missing the point - no one advancement can provide a magic solution to our ills. But motorway access to Dublin is no longer something we need to worry about when trying to sell Waterford to foreign investors. I'm certain it was one of the advantages in our favour when West Pharma decided to locate here, and maybe when Red Hat bought Feed Henry.

Anyway, why not make the argument in reverse? If a university wouldn't revitalise the region, just think for a second if the government decided to close NUIG. What would be the effect on Galway? Pretty catastrophic I'm sure, so don't tell me that going from having no university to having one would not have some sort of beneficial effect!

7upfree

fiachr_a wrote: »

A new university won't revitalise the region.

Absolutely ludicrous statement really. All past evidence points to the contrary.

Figerty

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

Very little of the money is drawn from Govenrment more to do with industry and EU grants and thats for TSSG. All the startups stand on their own 2 feet so alla gruments for jobs still apply.

A uni can have elvel 7s WIT would have no reason tog et rid of them so they wouldn;t.

I admire the people who start their own buisness; the reality is the incubation centres are Gov. funded or as you say EU funded.

I know of at least two IOTs that are getting rid of trades as they don't fit the bill if they are a uni. Have a guess where??? You won't find it written down either.. but have a good look around.

Level 6's and 7's and not part of the ethos of any university. If you have them,, then you won't be regarded as a university.

Figerty

7upfree wrote: »

Absolutely ludicrous statement really. All past evidence points to the contrary.

Sure we better upgrade all the IOT's so and that will solve all the problems! Make them all Uni's and the economic crisis will be over!

wellboytoo

Figerty wrote: »

Sure we better upgrade all the IOT's so and that will solve all the problems! Make them all Uni's and the economic crisis will be over!

Surely you remember the last Labour minister did that already ! Yet another sidestep by our duplicitous politicians.

Fate Amenable To Change

Figerty wrote: »

I admire the people who start their own buisness; the reality is the incubation centres are Gov. funded or as you say EU funded.

I know of at least two IOTs that are getting rid of trades as they don't fit the bill if they are a uni. Have a guess where??? You won't find it written down either.. but have a good look around.

Level 6's and 7's and not part of the ethos of any university. If you have them,, then you won't be regarded as a university.

The reality is that there are several startups living on their products and external investment from external sources. Some have originally got grants in their initial stages which would only be helped by having a University and the investment that draws. Having links to a research facility like TSSG helps provide some idea for investors in to spinoffs or startup associated with said research facility. To keep the research at cutting edge and retain students for the area then investment is continuosly needed which would be improved by a Uni, I can;t state this mroe clearly for you.

What does that mean, you know go on about knowing this or that on hearsay and tell me to go look. Could just as easily because there is zero interest in said trades or courses without getting the tinfoil hat out.

You obviously wouldn't regard it as a Uni if it had more than a few level 6 or 7 courses, the name and investment would say otherwise.

You've drawn up strawman arguments as to why more money wouldn't help the College. You've made arguments, I countered them and you literally cannot accept the facts. You manage to say because a company like FeedHenry started in Arclabs it is reliant on Government spending despite just being bouyght for 60million by Red Hat, are you trolling.

Im sure you'll make some non-sensical argument as to why more money = worse situation for the College, frankly you're believing your own rubbish if you;re not trolling.

Figerty

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

The reality is that there are several startups living on their products and external investment from external sources. Some have originally got grants in their initial stages which would only be helped by having a University and the investment that draws. Having links to a research facility like TSSG helps provide some idea for investors in to spinoffs or startup associated with said research facility. To keep the research at cutting edge and retain students for the area then investment is continuosly needed which would be improved by a Uni, I can;t state this mroe clearly for you.

What does that mean, you know go on about knowing this or that on hearsay and tell me to go look. Could just as easily because there is zero interest in said trades or courses without getting the tinfoil hat out.

You obviously wouldn't regard it as a Uni if it had more than a few level 6 or 7 courses, the name and investment would say otherwise.

You've drawn up strawman arguments as to why more money wouldn't help the College. You've made arguments, I countered them and you literally cannot accept the facts. You manage to say because a company like FeedHenry started in Arclabs it is reliant on Government spending despite just being bouyght for 60million by Red Hat, are you trolling.

Im sure you'll make some non-sensical argument as to why more money = worse situation for the College, frankly you're believing your own rubbish if you;re not trolling.

Not a straw man argument. I do not accept all the facts as you present them. Simple as that. I'm entitled to a view and a different view of the facts.
You and others here have a deep and genuine desire to have WIT upgraded. Others here don't agree; I'm one of them. I feel, as others do, that there isn't a strong enough case to make WIT a university when this country has seven moderate Universities. We don't need another.

I'm not trolling; many of the staff in WIT don't believe it either.
There have been some parish pump cases put here like if you have to travel more than 45 minutes to a university you are disadvantaged. So this infers Waterford must be made a university as a result.
I did get a good laugh out of that one.

robp

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

Those are developer jobs not technician/customer care jobs... nothing philisophical about the jobs created. Red Hat bought out Feed Henry for somewhere between 60 and 80 million, it was founded by a WIT graduate a few years ago, there are a rake of start ups housed in Arc Labs at the moment with WIT graduates and thats the tip of the iceberg, most computing students want to make their own startups. Getting a Uni makes it easier to draw in money and get grants for this. Computing is only one example, do a bit of research.

Universities offer level 7s, you're arguments aren't applicable.

For various reasons startups do not form equally in all universities. Even Cork has limited startups from UCC. Dublin really dominates the scene.

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/ireland-third-level-spin-outs-1656216-Sep2014/

mountcisco

As an outsider here it's my opinion that WIT should have gone ahead with the merger even if it did take a few more years to get to university status. In a merged institution it may have been possible to concentrate the level 7 courses in Carlow , which would have left Waterford free to accommodate the higher levels, R&D and spinoffs. These types of merger take time and patience, but at least there would have been a university to look forward to. Now there is just uncertainty. What a pity.

imacman

mountcisco wrote: »

As an outsider here it's my opinion that WIT should have gone ahead with the merger even if it did take a few more years to get to university status.

Again this idea out that there the merging equals guaranteed university status ,this is not the case there is only a chance to apply for a university as a merged entity.

WIT believes that it will be very difficult if not impossible to reach the criteria that will be judged by a international panel to reach university status and so doesn't want to risk all of the time , effort and tax payers money that would be pushed into this over the next 10 years.

mountcisco wrote: »

In a merged institution it may have been possible to concentrate the level 7 courses in Carlow , which would have left Waterford free to accommodate the higher levels, R&D and spinoffs.

Again this sounds like a nice logical idea but that's not the way the TU entity is envisioned in the criteria so again makes no difference.Plus that idea would never fly with the lecturing unions and in the original plans for the merger level 6,7,8 , and 9 courses were to be available on both campuses

fricatus

mountcisco wrote: »

In a merged institution it may have been possible to concentrate the level 7 courses in Carlow

This would mean no provider of level 7 courses in the Waterford area. That's hardly desirable...

mountcisco

imacman wrote: »

Again this idea out that there the merging equals guaranteed university status ,this is not the case there is only a chance to apply for a university as a merged entity.

But now there's not even that chance, which was my point. As far as I'm aware WIT can't do this alone and I wonder if they have enough political clout to have the criteria changed. Anyway I wish WIT the best of luck, as I think a university is needed in the SE.

wellboytoo

mountcisco wrote: »

But now there's not even that chance, which was my point. As far as I'm aware WIT can't do this alone and I wonder if they have enough political clout to have the criteria changed. Anyway I wish WIT the best of luck, as I think a university is needed in the SE.

Says the present Government, and conceded publicly by the minister last week that this decision was majorly influenced by the minister in Kilkenny and Wexford,I think we will have a new government in a shorter time frame than WIT's ability to meet the criteria, So the games is on again if we play our cards right politically, ie, we MUST elect someone who will have their feet under the cabinet table, regardless of what went on before, if FF are our best bet we as a constituency should vote for them or anyone else with a hope, personally I can't see any other party represented locally with a chance of getting into government, but open to suggestions.
A lot of you won't like this but it is pragmatic for WFD as a County.

Max Powers

wellboytoo wrote: »

Says the present Government, and conceded publicly by the minister last week that this decision was majorly influenced by the minister in Kilkenny and Wexford,I think we will have a new government in a shorter time frame than WIT's ability to meet the criteria, So the games is on again if we play our cards right politically, ie, we MUST elect someone who will have their feet under the cabinet table, regardless of what went on before, if FF are our best bet we as a constituency should vote for them or anyone else with a hope, personally I can't see any other party represented locally with a chance of getting into government, but open to suggestions.
A lot of you won't like this but it is pragmatic for WFD as a County.

yeah your not wrong i feel on a lot of that, however, who out of all of our likely candidates would be at a new govts cabinet table.
Mulligan...too early, maybe next time
COffey...possibly
Deasy...yeah right
Conway....doubt re-elected
Cullinane...if eleceted, i doubt it and he isnt high up enough
Independents such as Halligan....far more prominent independents around

My conclusion might be, have to vote for the party which is likely to be in govt even if you dont think a lot of em. Of course, a lot of stuff can happen in the mean time..

fuzzy dunlop

Max Powers wrote: »

yeah your not wrong i feel on a lot of that, however, who out of all of our likely candidates would be at a new govts cabinet table.
Mulligan...too early, maybe next time
COffey...possibly
Deasy...yeah right
Conway....doubt re-elected
Cullinane...if eleceted, i doubt it and he isnt high up enough
Independents such as Halligan....far more prominent independents around

My conclusion might be, have to vote for the party which is likely to be in govt even if you dont think a lot of em. Of course, a lot of stuff can happen in the mean time..

I doubt Coffey will be re-elected either but even if he is FG won't command the numbers like they do now so he will be nowhere near the cabinet. However all this is dependent on FG having a chance og government. That is looking slimmer every day.

7upfree

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I doubt Coffey will be re-elected either but even if he is FG won't command the numbers like they do now so he will be nowhere near the cabinet. However all this is dependent on FG having a chance og government. That is looking slimmer every day.

Deasy: voted back in by farmers and his family name.

Coffey: dead in the water.

Conway: obliterated.

Halligan: returned.

Cullinane: wins seat and probably a minister in the next Government (hopefully).

The remaining seat can be won by a strong enough independent candidate.

fuzzy dunlop

7upfree wrote: »

Deasy: voted back in by farmers and his family name.

Coffey: dead in the water.

Conway: obliterated.

Halligan: returned.

Cullinane: wins seat and probably a minister in the next Government (hopefully).

The remaining seat can be won by a strong enough independent candidate.

The good thing about it this time is we have nothing to lose. We can actually pursue a strategy this time.

imacman

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

The good thing about it this time is we have nothing to lose. We can actually pursue a strategy this time.

Well Waterford people need to get their voice heard , especially if the minister tries to bully this merger through and emasculates WIT to the advantage of the "good boys" in Carlow. Personally i think this issue is more important as the other Hulk hogan inspired mess the water charges, it is vital to the city going forward.

fuzzy dunlop

imacman wrote: »

Well Waterford people need to get their voice heard , especially if the minister tries to bully this merger through and emasculates WIT to the advantage of the "good boys" in Carlow. Personally i think this issue is more important as the other Hulk hogan inspired mess the water charges, it is vital to the city going forward.

Well our voice hasn't been heard since 25000 people took to the streets. It certainly won't be heard again if we vote for Coffey under some delusion he may become a cabinet minister. For what its worth I think Deasy will get elected come hell or high water which is a pity. The other three seats will be SF, FF and maybe an independent. I think FF will be the largest party after the next election. I have a feeling it will be like the recent locals. If SF have any sense they will force FF and FG to merge by not having anything to do with either of them.This will ultimately be food for the country IMO. And Labour will hopefully go the way of the Dodo to reward their unadulturated treachery.

fiachr_a

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Well our voice hasn't been heard since 25000 people took to the streets.

That's because most people in Dublin can't tell the difference between Waterford and Wexford.

fuzzy dunlop

fiachr_a wrote: »

That's because most people in Dublin can't tell the difference between Waterford and Wexford.

I think you'll find they can. Even the most idiotic Anto smackhead knows where "Courtown" is. And they know it aint Waterford.

sparkling sea

7upfree wrote: »

Deasy: voted back in by farmers and his family name.

Coffey: dead in the water.

Conway: obliterated.

Halligan: returned.

Cullinane: wins seat and probably a minister in the next Government (hopefully).

The remaining seat can be won by a strong enough independent candidate.

Will anyone who is re elected be sucessful in delivering the long awaited University ??

I'd agree Conway won't be re elected

Halligan is a definite and may be of value, but thats very much dependant on the makeup of the next government.

Deasy is a definite, but for Waterford as a whole he is of little use.

Can't see Cullinane even getting a junior ministry. there are way too many SF power houses ahead of him, don't you think??

Paudie Coffey has a junior Ministry but it's really of little use and seems more like tokenism. I doubt he'll be re elected but I wouldn't rule it out completely, it'll depend on the competition.

Seamus Ryan would have had a much higher profile than Conway in the City, in the last election. Conway was lucky to have benefited from the labour voters and so many women, who seemed to have wanted a female representative, I'd go as far now as suggesting that if a good female candidate was put forward by either, FF or FG that candidate would have a very good chance of being elected. Again if John Halligan supported a well known, well versed female Independent candidate, then that candidate would also stand a decent chance of being elected.

Huge vacuum exists but I'm sad to say, I've heard a few people suggest that would should give FF another go, they've learned their lesson, etc etc, I think its way too soon but who knows. I don't really have any faith in FG or Lab or SF either though