Waterford University discussion

Fate Amenable To Change

fiachr_a wrote: »

It's not politics, it's because Waterford City is a kip that no-one in Ireland cares about. Waterford is slipping further down the food chain. Wait until they upgrade Tallaght to a city and then convert their IT into a university!

Waterford isn't a kip but you've literally described how politics works in this country.

7upfree

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

Waterford isn't a kip but you've literally described how politics works in this country.

Touché.

Waterford - a beautiful City with the nicest people you could meet. Anywhere.

invara

Guramoogah wrote: »

Dick Langford, Principal of Waterford Regional Technical College (1970-'74) is the new Chairman of the Board of Governors of Waterford Institute of Technology. I think they're on the brink of a major breakthrough here: go it alone and revert to calling themselves a Regional Technical College. Think about it: WRTC would be the best RTC in the whole of Ireland. They'd be unique and then could try to achieve the University upgrade all on their own - in about forty five years time.

As far as I know, Dick Langford is a Kerryman, has lived in Cork for the last thirty years and is a department man. Many in WIT think he has been sent into WIT to put manners on the place. His appointment IMHO is another attack on Waterford. It is heavily insinuated that the last two chairmen of WIT were pushed aside by the department, the last two presidents came from other colleges (Carlow and UL). Even with these aggressive interventions into the affairs of an autonomous institution- they cannot put the university genie back in the box.

smjg

Dick Langford is a Waterford man (his father was a Kerry man). He was educated in DLS. He was the CEO of Cork City VEC for 30 years. Prior to that he was CEO of Waterford City VEC and prior to that he was the first principal of Waterford Regional College.

kooga

it would be great if they opened another campus on the dunmore road, it would be a good cluster with the hospital and ardkeen stores

imacman

kooga wrote: »

it would be great if they opened another campus on the dunmore road, it would be a good cluster with the hospital and ardkeen stores

In fairness if they don't have the cash to build the new engineering and business buildings on the main campus with the site lying vacant , i don't think a new campus is on the cards

fricatus

kooga wrote: »

it would be great if they opened another campus on the dunmore road, it would be a good cluster with the hospital and ardkeen stores

Nice and all as it is to think outside the box like you're doing, there isn't a snowball's chance in Hell of that happening.

There's not a whole lot of undeveloped land left in that area, and WIT have a massive land bank out in Carriganore, where they have space for all sorts of new buildings.

Although that's a wonderful asset for the college to have, it would be a real pity if all the student activity was in a campus on the edge of town, and existed in its own little bubble. Universities and ITs can contribute hugely to their immediate environs just by the footfall that their students generate.

Reputable Rog

I think they should start afresh with a new University in Kilkenny. Much more of a collegiate feel then Waterford.

wellboytoo

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I think they should start afresh with a new University in Kilkenny. Much more of a collegiate feel then Waterford.

Says the fella from Derry..... and it's "than Waterford"

Reputable Rog

wellboytoo wrote: »

Says the fella from Derry..... and it's "than Waterford"

We have a University in Londonderry, something the Boi from Waatterford can never claim.

imacman

fricatus wrote: »

There's not a whole lot of undeveloped land left in that area, and WIT have a massive land bank out in Carriganore, where they have space for all sorts of new buildings

Although that's a wonderful asset for the college to have, it would be a real pity if all the student activity was in a campus on the edge of town, and existed in its own little bubble. Universities and ITs can contribute hugely to their immediate environs just by the footfall that their students generate.

Its a disgrace that campus services poured so much money into the white elephant sports arena in Carriganore. They then ran out of money and the college has had to bail them out .Sports facilities are great but the percentage of students that use them are small ( plus its a trek out to Carriganore for students who want to use them).

All the while the student facilities like students union , rec rooms on the main campus are really old and rubbish compared to other colleges .The money that was spent on the Carriganore white elephant would have being much better spent those facilities as it would benefited a larger part of the student body than just the sports guys.

robtri

fricatus wrote: »

Nice and all as it is to think outside the box like you're doing, there isn't a snowball's chance in Hell of that happening.

There's not a whole lot of undeveloped land left in that area, and WIT have a massive land bank out in Carriganore, where they have space for all sorts of new buildings.

Although that's a wonderful asset for the college to have, it would be a real pity if all the student activity was in a campus on the edge of town, and existed in its own little bubble. Universities and ITs can contribute hugely to their immediate environs just by the footfall that their students generate.

or they can make lives miserable for their immediate environs... parking issues which WIT stundednts have inflicted on their neighbors, or how about the few students in templers hall..... being so considerate to their neighbours.... and how could one forget the way on student nights the area around the nightclubs looks like world war three happened... not everything they bring is good for the city..... campus and a students pubs out at carrignore would be better imho.

Max Powers

fricatus wrote: »

Nice and all as it is to think outside the box like you're doing, there isn't a snowball's chance in Hell of that happening.

There's not a whole lot of undeveloped land left in that area, and WIT have a massive land bank out in Carriganore, where they have space for all sorts of new buildings.

Although that's a wonderful asset for the college to have, it would be a real pity if all the student activity was in a campus on the edge of town, and existed in its own little bubble. Universities and ITs can contribute hugely to their immediate environs just by the footfall that their students generate.

you are being very kind/charitable fricatus, its a silly idea and to use your phrase the poster needs to think a little closer to the box.

fricatus

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I think they should start afresh with a new University in Kilkenny. Much more of a collegiate feel then Waterford.

I got an oul' "collegiate feel" one time at the back of Darrer's during Rag Week!

Plenty of it in Waterford boi!!!

fiachr_a

Cork Road isn't posh enough for a university.

wellboytoo

Does your Mammy know your up?

comeraghs

Has the silly idea of a merger with Carlow IT been binned for good now or are the govt still trying to force that through?

WIT is ready to upgrade in 2015, the pressure must be kept up.

7upfree

comeraghs wrote: »

Has the silly idea of a merger with Carlow IT been binned for good now or are the govt still trying to force that through?

WIT is ready to upgrade in 2015, the pressure must be kept up.

Wouldn't be depending on the FG mob. Or FF.

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fine-gaels-university-pledge/

imacman

Interesting stuff in the Irish Independent today about the CIT - Tralee IT merger

"The Irish Independent has seen a confidential letter that Mr Hennessy sent to Ms O'Sullivan last month, following an evaluation of the Cork-Tralee submission by an independent panel.

His letter cites phrases such as "lack of vision", "aspirational nature" and "governance weakness" used by the panel - pointing to "significant shortcomings" in relation to some aspects of the Cork-Tralee proposal.

Mr Hennessy told the minister: "The unease of the panel about the lack of vision, about the aspirational nature of the plan and about its governance weakness" was a cause of concern.

"They point to significant shortcomings in the plan that requires early, and much focussed, attention by the consortium," he wrote.

HEA chief executive Tom Boland has also written to Cork IT president Dr Brendan Murphy and IT Tralee president Dr Oliver Murphy, advising them of the "very significant challenge" they face.

Groups seeking TU status have to satisfy certain criteria, or at least have the capacity to do so within a certain timeframe, including the number of staff who hold PhDs and a sustained level of research activity.

Among the concerns raised by the panel in relation to Cork-Tralee were projections for student numbers; how well it would distinguish itself from other colleges; and whether becoming a university would affect the colleges' relationship with industry.


Looks like WIT pulling out of the whole process was well merited. Its nice to see the criteria as the reality of the process rather than the wish's of local politicians.The WIT and Carlow merger will never reach the Criteria as Carlow aren't at the races in terms of research . Time to go back to the drawing board on all of this.

wellboytoo

A political decision forced on an Academic body was never going to work , makes one wonder was that the plan with all of them day one? kick the can down the road until the next election and blame the IT's when you get to the doorstep's.
It won't work with me, two things I will not forgive or forget the Coalition for in Waterford, the lack of action, actually the reverse movement on University status, and emasculating our City status and Mayoralty, this is a never forgive for me the rest is immaterial.

7upfree

wellboytoo wrote: »

A political decision forced on an Academic body was never going to work , makes one wonder was that the plan with all of them day one? kick the can down the road until the next election and blame the IT's when you get to the doorstep's.
It won't work with me, two things I will not forgive or forget the Coalition for in Waterford, the lack of action, actually the reverse movement on University status, and emasculating our City status and Mayoralty, this is a never forgive for me the rest is immaterial.

And now the joke that is the application for a Capital Of Culture.

fiachr_a

wellboytoo wrote: »

Does your Mammy know your up?

No, but she knows the difference between your and you're!

Harry Palmr

7upfree wrote: »

And now the joke that is the application for a Capital Of Culture.

That's actually something the City should have a tilt at - cheap to get, brings in some gubberment cash, lots of publicity for a City which Duberlin hardly knows exists.

7upfree

Harry Palmr wrote: »

That's actually something the City should have a tilt at - cheap to get, brings in some gubberment cash, lots of publicity for a City which Duberlin hardly knows exists.

You do realise it isn't just Waterford City?

wellboytoo

7upfree wrote: »

And now the joke that is the application for a Capital Of Culture.

Not biting .

wellboytoo

fiachr_a wrote: »

No, but she knows the difference between your and you're!

Touché ,hates tha!

7upfree

wellboytoo wrote: »

Not biting .

You don't have to.

imacman

Another Nail in the coffin in the South East Technological University

Irish independent today

Plans for the new South East Technological University (SETU) have been dealt a blow after the Teachers' Union of Ireland (TUI) branches in the Institute of Technology Carlow and the Waterford Institute of Technology issued a strong riposte to plans for a forced merger involving both institutes.

At a conference this week union officers and members expressed their concerns about the current plan being pursued by the government.

Concern was expressed about the continuing uncertainty relating to the academic vision and mission of a technological university and the imposed requirement for a merger of institutes before they apply for technological university status.

The lack of sufficient financial resources made available for the establishment of the proposed technological universities was also highlighted in the context of funding cuts already imposed in recent years. Of particular concern was the recent HEA claim that mergers need to be funded by means of even deeper 'efficiencies' within already overstretched institutes.

Officers from both branches expressed dismay at the lack of focus on academic considerations, noting that the only concrete proposals so far relate to the distribution of management posts.

The branches have requested a meeting with the Minister's appointed consultation consultant Mr Kelly to express their concerns on this process to date. The branches consider forced mergers of institutes could be avoided if a structure similar to the National University of Ireland was put in place for a technological university sector.

imacman

Article today in the irish times re the South east University debacle


Southeast college merger: a suitable match or a forced marriage?

Waterford Institute of Technology wants to go it alone as a technological university, rather than merge with Carlow IT. Where does that
The long-running saga of Waterford Institute of Technology’s bid for university status has had a few problems of late. There were particular issues when the college decided last October to pull out of a merger process with IT Carlow aimed at making a joint application for technological university status.

Despite Waterford’s suspension of merger talks, the link-up with Carlow seems to be the only option when it comes to an upgrade, at least as far as the Government is concerned. Whether that changes after the next election, when there might be new people making decisions and a new programme for government, remains to be seen.

Waterford Institute of Technology management said after the break-up of negotiations with IT Carlow that it wanted to “determine its own future in an autonomous way”.

In the meantime, some in WIT have voiced concerns that it will take years longer for a merged institution to meet the university criteria than if Waterford were to go it alone. That’s an argument disputed in Carlow.

What’s unarguable is that this path has not been smooth and the ultimate outcome is unclear. After meetings with the Government after the merger suspension, it was announced that Waterford IT’s chairman Donie Ormonde was “stepping down” from his post “to allow for new blood”, and former head of the Higher Education Authority Michael Kelly was parachuted in to consult with the two colleges and “reinvigorate” the process, as the Minister for Education, Jan O’Sullivan, put it.

WIT’s governing body initially refused to engage with the review, but a later decision by the governors to meet the expert has put the review somewhat back on track.

There remains, however, significant opposition in Waterford to the merger with Carlow, which for its part resents being portrayed as some kind of “junior partner”.

No one in charge is currently saying anything official in public due to the ongoing meetings held by Kelly, who is due to report to the Government next month. The president of WIT, Ruaidhrí Neavyn, who took over in 2012, having previously been president of IT Carlow, has made no public statement on the issue.

However, IT Carlow said this week it was involved in a “very positive engagement” with Kelly, who has met internal and external stakeholders to get a range of opinions. Support for a technological university in the southeast has been “evident”, according to IT Carlow, and staff and management are looking forward to reading the Kelly report.


Reluctance in Waterford

Down in Waterford, engagement has been more reluctant. “That’s going ahead and they’ve all agreed to keep schtum,” says one senior person who is closely involved at WIT and who has concerns about Kelly’s terms of reference. Many feel they are restricted to implementing the Waterford-Carlow merger. “I have no faith in the process . . . They worked for three years to move the Carlow merger ahead and got nowhere.”

The WIT governing body rowed back, and, shortly before Christmas, agreed to engage with the review. Many members have since met Kelly.

“There’s nothing else on his agenda [apart from the merger],” another senior insider at WIT says of the Kelly review. “There’s only one option. If it’s decided that that option isn’t suitable, there will be no university. There’s only one route.”

The Department of Education has stated that the report, which is due by the end of March, will be “based on consultations with the two institutions as well as other stakeholders”.

The department confirmed that Kelly had met the governing bodies of both colleges and reiterated the government’s “commitment to the creation of a multi- campus technological university of the southeast, as outlined in the programme for government”.

As WIT and IT Carlow are the two main third-level institutions in the southeast, those words indicate there will be no straying elsewhere by either college, such as developing a partnership with Cork IT, as some in WIT have suggested (despite Cork’s dalliance with IT Tralee for merger and TU purposes).

Dr Róisín O’Shea, a recent PhD graduate working on a major family law research project at WIT, describes the merger with Carlow as “an arranged marriage between two utterly unsuitable parties”.

She says several staff members she has spoken to feel the same way and think WIT should step back from the current path and apply, under section 9 of the University Act, 1997, for fullblown university status.

But “if we are absolutely locked into a Waterford-Carlow merger”, as seems to be the case under current Government’s policy, “then make it a two-stage process”, she says. “Let WIT move ahead now to upgrading as a technological university, and Carlow, when it meets the criteria in a few years’ time, can then make the transition and complete the merger process.”

She intends to propose this approach to Kelly during consultation. “In terms of meeting the criteria, Carlow is still many years away from being able to make the transition to technological university status. Forcing a merger of both institutes at the same time just doesn’t make sense.”


‘Geographically, it doesn’t make sense’

Colette Colfer, a lecturer in world religions in the department of humanities, also believes WIT should have been allowed to go it alone and says others feel the same. “Geographically, it doesn’t make sense to merge with Carlow,” she says. “WIT is genuinely a centre of excellence anyway, with excellent lecturers and research going on.”

The priority should be to establish a university in the southeast, Colfer says. But asked if she is optimistic about this happening anytime soon, her answer is a stark no.

In Carlow, one staff member who wished to remain anonymous says that, according to Government policy, the only way of developing TUs is for ITs to merge and apply jointly. “Across a range of criteria there are complementary skills . . . The biggest misinformation is that any institute can apply or that Waterford can apply in its own right to achieve the university . . . It has to be as a joint [application].”

He says Carlow is “on track” to achieve the designated criteria in postgraduate research, PhD numbers and lifelong learning. “There’s a strong case for a north-south axis for a technological university for the region.”

Dr Cormac O’Raifeartaigh, a well-known physicist at WIT who writes a column for this newspaper’s Science page, says demand for a university in Waterford is driven “primarily” by the city and region, not the college.

“This demand arises from the continuing loss of students to Dublin, a brain drain of young people that makes it difficult to attract industry to the region. In this regard, Waterford’s situation is very different to that of Cork or Dublin, so it’s unfortunate that Waterford now finds itself at the back of the queue in a process of upgrading institutes of technology into universities, a process many academics have great reservations about.”

WIT was founded as one of the country’s network of fledgling regional technical colleges in 1970, as was IT Carlow. In Waterford there are about 10,000 students across schools of business, humanities, health sciences, computing, engineering and lifelong learning and education. The college is known for its research in a number of fields, such as the Telecommunications Software and Systems Group, a high-profile information and communications technology centre at its Carriganore campus west of the city.

There is some concern about the move towards TUs – which was recommended in the Hunt Report some years ago – particularly regarding the implications for humanities departments, but it remains part of the current programme for government.

The issue was recently raised at the Dáil’s Public Accounts Committee, when Waterford’s Fine Gael TD John Deasy asked if the merger was a “failed one”, and Tom Boland of the Higher Education Authority said it was still “a feasible project”.

Deasy says he has been having meetings with interested parties, along with Carlow TD and party colleague Pat Deering, and they will meet Kelly in the coming weeks.

“What I’m discovering are a lot of agendas which aren’t necessarily good for Waterford or the southeast, and they need to be dealt with.”

For all involved, Kelly’s report is eagerly awaited.

Junior

imacman wrote: »

Deasy says he has been having meetings with interested parties, along with Carlow TD and party colleague Pat Deering, and they will meet Kelly in the coming weeks.

“What I’m discovering are a lot of agendas which aren’t necessarily good for Waterford or the southeast, and they need to be dealt with.”

Finger on the pulse as always there John....