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Waterford University discussion
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mountcisco wrote: »Carlow is technically part of the south east but in some ways it isn't. Look at the bid for the South East to become Capital of Culture 2020 it's Waterford Wexford and Kilkenny. No mention of Carlow; either they weren't asked or weren't interested, it doesn't matter which, but it shows they're semi-detached.
But there not fully detached. And the periphery of regions always have adjacent forces acting on them. But the fact remains they are more integrated historically with the South East. The counties in the SE were not selected at random. The idea that they are part of some Greater Dublin agglomeration is a bit disingenuous and is highly undesirable from the point of view of regional balance. The overspill from Dublin if it does not form resilient communities will store up huge social problems for the future.0 -
mountcisco wrote: »DIT will move to one campus but the other colleges ITB and ITT are not closing but will remain as they are, all together becoming the new TU. I was suggesting that IT Carlow join that group.
I think though the reality is that the only reason they are not being merged into one campus is that they were never envisaged that way. They were designed to provide social capital to their areas and they are also very new.If they were the same age as the Kevin St buildings then I think they would be gone to Grangegorman.
However I don't see any problem with your logic. Except for the fact that you have to ask why it hasn't been pitched? The local politicians seemed to have no problem attaching their local hospitals to Dublin hospitals. Yet a WIT and ICT merger is sacrosant. Odd!0 -
Just to get things back on topic, I have talked to someone on the inside who was involved in the negotiations with Carlow last year.The carlow negotiators were extremely agressive from day one and saw themselves as the leaders of the merger.
There was no compromises from them and they seemed to expect Wit to be bend over to accommodate them.That agressive behavior was not made publically known but was another major factor in the WIT pullout of the process in November.0 -
Just to get things back on topic, I have talked to someone on the inside who was involved in the negotiations with Carlow last year.The carlow negotiators were extremely agressive from day one and saw themselves as the leaders of the merger.
There was no compromises from them and they seemed to expect Wit to be bend over to accommodate them.That agressive behavior was not made publically known but was another major factor in the WIT pullout of the process in November.
Amazing how that has only come out by a side door. They wouldn't have been that aggressive unless they were encouraged to be. More interference.0 -
Amazing how that has only come out by a side door. They wouldn't have been that aggressive unless they were encouraged to be. More interference.
There are plenty reports out there that say forced mergers don't work. Carlow obviously don't want to be the lesser party in a merger as the lesser parties get screwed.
Look at whats happening with Angelas and NUIG.. or Thomond college and UL.. or some international mergers.... turkeys voting for Christmas if you go willing through the merger route.0 -
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There are plenty reports out there that say forced mergers don't work. Carlow obviously don't want to be the lesser party in a merger as the lesser parties get screwed.
Look at whats happening with Angelas and NUIG.. or Thomond college and UL.. or some international mergers.... turkeys voting for Christmas if you go willing through the merger route.
The problem is they do want to be a part of a merger.But they don't want to be a lesser party even though that is what they are. They want parity of esteem when it isn't deserved.0 -
fuzzy dunlop wrote: »The problem is they do want to be a part of a merger.But they don't want to be a lesser party even though that is what they are. They want parity of esteem when it isn't deserved.
And there is the nub of it; Waterford arrogance is what your statement is going to be perceived as.
The purpose of a merger is to create a new entity and not a new Junior/Senior organisation. If it ever goes ahead the first thing that should happen is to remove the names Waterford and Carlow from the title but calling the University of the South East is an irrelevant name in marketing terms.
Carlow are right to stay independant for the sake of the Carlow region.0 -
And there is the nub of it; Waterford arrogance is what your statement is going to be perceived as.
The purpose of a merger is to create a new entity and not a new Junior/Senior organisation. If it ever goes ahead the first thing that should happen is to remove the names Waterford and Carlow from the title but calling the University of the South East is an irrelevant name in marketing terms.
Carlow are right to stay independant for the sake of the Carlow region.
Ballix! You're just making stuff up now. There is plenty of independent evidence out there to show that the two institutions are not equal so nobody from Waterford has to open their mouth. If there is arrogance on display it is all Carlow! And by the way there is no Carlow region! Its the South East and the problem with this country from its establishment is the insistence by two populist and backward political parties i.e. FF and FG that everything has to be delivered on a county level. But the solution to the problem has been inadvertently given by another poster. If Carlow are so confident why don't they just seek a merger with DIT? Or another institution? The answer is because it would be a futile exercise and they know it. There was only ever one institution and one location realistically in contention for an upgrade or a university and that was Waterford.0 -
fuzzy dunlop wrote: »Ballix! You're just making stuff up now. There is plenty of independent evidence out there to show that the two institutions are not equal so nobody from Waterford has to open their mouth. If there is arrogance on display it is all Carlow! And by the way there is no Carlow region! Its the South East and the problem with this country from its establishment is the insistence by two populist and backward political parties i.e. FF and FG that everything has to be delivered on a county level. But the solution to the problem has been inadvertently given by another poster. If Carlow are so confident why don't they just seek a merger with DIT? Or another institution? The answer is because it would be a futile exercise and they know it. There was only ever one institution and one location realistically in contention for an upgrade or a university and that was Waterford.
The solution is to leave WIT as WIT and Carlow IT as Carlow.. we have enough universities...
The arrogance you have displayed here is testament enough to warn Carlow off ever merging.. read what you said again.
"The problem is they do want to be a part of a merger.But they don't want to be a lesser party even though that is what they are. They want parity of esteem when it isn't deserved."
You seem to forget that the ETB's are now regional bodies not County bodies..so where is that arguement about county profiles.0 -
The solution is to leave WIT as WIT and Carlow IT as Carlow.. we have enough universities...
The arrogance you have displayed here is testament enough to warn Carlow off ever merging.. read what you said again.
Well if Carlow are warned off all the better! But less be honest the only testament in these posts is the obvious resentment of a Donegal man who knows there is no similar case for Leterkenny IT. You let that mask slip earlier.The region as a whole has lower third level and university attendence than smaller and comparable regions. There is enough room for another University and enough potential students in the region to support a Uni by just bringing the attendance figures within the region up to parity. But your statement makes no sense. It would be easier just to tell Carlow to stay put. There is not much evidence that is a political hot potato there. The whole merger fiasco is just that a fiasco.You seem to forget that the ETB's are now regional bodies not County bodies..so where is that arguement about county profiles.
You're the one referring to Carlow as a region. The existence of the ETB's supports the reality and my statement that it's not. So this part of your post is actually quite ridiculous as it is you contradicting yourself.0 -
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fuzzy dunlop wrote: »Well if Carlow are warned off all the better! But less be honest the only testament in these posts is the obvious resentment of a Donegal man who knows there is no similar case for Leterkenny IT. You let that mask slip earlier.The region as a whole has lower third level and university attendence than smaller and comparable regions. There is enough room for another University and enough potential students in the region to support a Uni by just bringing the attendance figures within the region up to parity. But your statement makes no sense. It would be easier just to tell Carlow to stay put. There is not much evidence that is a political hot potato there. The whole merger fiasco is just that a fiasco.
You're the one referring to Carlow as a region. The existence of the ETB's supports the reality and my statement that it's not. So this part of your post is actually quite ridiculous as it is you contradicting yourself.
I have nothing to do with Donegal or Letterkenny.. I think you are jumping to mad assumptions and conclusions. I've been to Donegal once in my life.
You also seem to make mad jumps in the whole scenario, You accuse political parties of being County based but the ETB's disprove that theory. Do you not see the problem?
On a national level 7 universities are enough; DIT might be the only exception.
Waterford throwing the rattler out of the pram won't help. Adding a Polytechnic University to list isn't going to change anything.
The TUI members don't want it.. if you don't have the staff on board you are going nowhere. It's going nowhere at present.0 -
The solution is to leave WIT as WIT and Carlow IT as Carlow.. we have enough universities...
The arrogance you have displayed here is testament enough to warn Carlow off ever merging.. read what you said again.
"The problem is they do want to be a part of a merger.But they don't want to be a lesser party even though that is what they are. They want parity of esteem when it isn't deserved."
You seem to forget that the ETB's are now regional bodies not County bodies..so where is that arguement about county profiles.
Looks to me like WIT hubris has ruined this. Hope I'm wrong.0 -
And there is the nub of it; Waterford arrogance is what your statement is going to be perceived as.
The purpose of a merger is to create a new entity and not a new Junior/Senior organisation. If it ever goes ahead the first thing that should happen is to remove the names Waterford and Carlow from the title but calling the University of the South East is an irrelevant name in marketing terms.
Carlow are right to stay independant for the sake of the Carlow region.
In fairness all of the proposed mergers have a major and minor parties (DIT - tallaght / blanchardstown , CIT - Traleeit ) based on institute size.To expect WIT to accept Carlow as the leading party in the merger even though they are the bigger institute is not on.
As I have said I have talked to someone directly involved in the merger talks and this was the Carlow agenda from day one.They used the whole mess related to the ex presidents expenses and campus services to push the agenda that they are the top dogs and should be the lead party in the merger.0 -
I have nothing to do with Donegal or Letterkenny.. I think you are jumping to mad assumptions and conclusions. I've been to Donegal once in my life.
No I am making rational assumptions based on your posts. Either that or you are an irrational person or a rational liar. You wouldn't be the first. See who is thanking your posts.You also seem to make mad jumps in the whole scenario, You accuse political parties of being County based but the ETB's disprove that theory. Do you not see the problem?
No I don't because the ETB's are still effectively county based so they disprove nothing. Two counties together are two counties they are not a region. A few of them are merged VEC's that were done at the whim of cabinet ministers like Brendan Howlin trying to bring pork back to their constituents.The Waterford/Wexford merger being case in point.The Waterford VEC was initially supposd to be merged with South Tipp which made more sense. But also the Galway HQ not being located in Galway City. Where mergers were done they were done on a county basis instead of on catchment areas of towns or cities where institutions are located.On a national level 7 universities are enough; DIT might be the only exception.
Waterford throwing the rattler out of the pram won't help. Adding a Polytechnic University to list isn't going to change anything.
The TUI members don't want it.. if you don't have the staff on board you are going nowhere. It's going nowhere at present.
Then let it go nowhere and upgrade WIT to a TU which was the original plan going as far back as the 90's when Cork threw their toys out of the pram because they weren't in the frame for an IT upgrade back in the 90's. Its strange we don't see people like you ranting on the Cork Forums about that! If seven Universties are enough merge two of them and upgrade WIT but there is no reason to think that seven universities are enough.It's just plucked out of the air! See the hypocrisy of your statements are glaring. You think there should be only seven universities except for maybe DIT. So the number seven is not sacrosanct its just if the 7+1 includes WIT.Yeah you're completely impartial!0 -
fuzzy dunlop wrote: »No I am making rational assumptions based on your posts. Either that or you are an irrational person or a rational liar. You wouldn't be the first. See who is thanking your posts.
No I don't because the ETB's are still effectively county based so they disprove nothing. Two counties together are two counties they are not a region. A few of them are merged VEC's that were done at the whim of cabinet ministers like Brendan Howlin trying to bring pork back to their constituents.The Waterford/Wexford merger being case in point.The Waterford VEC was initially supposd to be merged with South Tipp which made more sense. But also the Galway HQ not being located in Galway City. Where mergers were done they were done on a county basis instead of on catchment areas of towns or cities where institutions are located.
Then let it go nowhere and upgrade WIT to a TU which was the original plan going as far back as the 90's when Cork threw their toys out of the pram because they weren't in the frame for an IT upgrade back in the 90's. Its strange we don't see people like you ranting on the Cork Forums about that! If seven Universties are enough merge two of them and upgrade WIT but there is no reason to think that seven universities are enough.It's just plucked out of the air! See the hypocrisy of your statements are glaring. You think there should be only seven universities except for maybe DIT. So the number seven is not sacrosanct its just if the 7+1 includes WIT.Yeah you're completely impartial!
I'm neither irrational or a liar; I have an outside view that you don't like. I can't choose who likes posts.
The point about the ETB's is that it's a selective political view; You blame FF and FG for a county view, but the ETB's, much to the annoyance of the VEC's and counsellors were forced to merge 'to drive efficiencies'.
I'm not impartial. I'm independent of the local 'South-East'. Jumping to conclusions there. Like thinking I was from donegal.. You must have spent your entire Sunday trawling through past posts and trying string some sort of picture together.
In a population the size of Ireland, seven substantial universities are enough. If there were six it might be better..A typical US University has in the region of 40,0000 students. Do you not get that point. An IOT has a purpose.. Level 6, 7, 8 a technical Level 9 and 10. That's what an IOT does. Nothing wrong with that.
Your view does not see past the regional Waterford need. Ireland does not need another half baked university. Ireland needs world class universities that are invested into world class standards. That is my point.
I do not disagree with you regarding the change of name from RTC to IOT.. none of them should have been changed.. But neither should Waterford it was a political stroke that backfired.0 -
In fairness all of the proposed mergers have a major and minor parties (DIT - tallaght / blanchardstown , CIT - Traleeit ) based on institute size.To expect WIT to accept Carlow as the leading party in the merger even though they are the bigger institute is not on.
As I have said I have talked to someone directly involved in the merger talks and this was the Carlow agenda from day one.They used the whole mess related to the ex presidents expenses and campus services to push the agenda that they are the top dogs and should be the lead party in the merger.
I don't disagree with you there. It's obvious that Carlow went on the front foot so as not to become the Junior partner. But there is always a junior partner and the looser is a junior partner.
The ex Presidents issues is a stick to beat WIT with..they aren't alone with the problems, the IOT's had some real basket case presidents.
Tralee
Limerick
Athlone
CIT
Letterkenny
GMIT
Waterford
Sligo
Take your pick..0 -
I'm neither irrational or a liar; I have an outside view that you don't like. I can't choose who likes posts.
The point about the ETB's is that it's a selective political view; You blame FF and FG for a county view, but the ETB's, much to the annoyance of the VEC's and counsellors were forced to merge 'to drive efficiencies'.
You are definitely disingenuous ergo dishonest. And your obsession with WIT's endeavors are far from rational especially when all you post is opinionated crap regurgitated probably from a newspaper. So while you may not technically be "a liar" it is only in a Jesuitical sense that you can claim that. As for the VEC's. It seems some councilors were happier than others for obvious reasons.I'm not impartial. I'm independent of the local 'South-East'. Jumping to conclusions there. Like thinking I was from donegal.. You must have spent your entire Sunday trawling through past posts and trying string some sort of picture together.
Don't flatter yourself your posts are not worth trawling through. You brought Donegal into the debate. Live with it!In a population the size of Ireland, seven substantial universities are enough. If there were six it might be better..A typical US University has in the region of 40,0000 students. Do you not get that point. An IOT has a purpose.. Level 6, 7, 8 a technical Level 9 and 10. That's what an IOT does. Nothing wrong with that.
I get that point. It just as no significance We're not the US. By this logic then we should close all the Universities with the exception of two.So again the solution is upgrade WIT and keep all the other institutes as IT's. Problem solved. And there is no reason that the state cannot handle one or even two extra Universities and still have two or three in the top 200. The UK ranks better than any country in Europe in that regard despite having upgraded its polytechnics and having more Universities per capita and student than Ireland even with a WIT upgrade. So that gives that "half baked" theory of yours a decent burialYour view does not see past the regional Waterford need. Ireland does not need another half baked university. Ireland needs world class universities that are invested into world class standards. That is my point.
Upgrading WIT does not prevent Ireland developing world class Universities. And balance regional development/investment is a "national need".I do not disagree with you regarding the change of name from RTC to IOT.. none of them should have been changed.. But neither should Waterford it was a political stroke that backfired.
It was a political stoke but not by Waterford. Waterford had next to no political influence in the government for that period so it was a definite recognition that something needed to be done to deliver some sort of University level institution to Waterford and the region. The WIT upgrade was almost a given until the same clowns who tried to repeat the same thing they did with the VEC's interfered with the process for their own political careers.0 -
fuzzy dunlop wrote: »You are definitely disingenuous ergo dishonest. And your obsession with WIT's endeavors are far from rational especially when all you post is opinionated crap regurgitated probably from a newspaper. So while you may not technically be "a liar" it is only in a Jesuitical sense that you can claim that. As for the VEC's. It seems some councilors were happier than others for obvious reasons.
Don't flatter yourself your posts are not worth trawling through. You brought Donegal into the debate. Live with it!
I get that point. It just as no significance We're not the US. By this logic then we should close all the Universities with the exception of two.So again the solution is upgrade WIT and keep all the other institutes as IT's. Problem solved. And there is no reason that the state cannot handle one or even two extra Universities and still have two or three in the top 200. The UK ranks better than any country in Europe in that regard despite having upgraded its polytechnics and having more Universities per capita and student than Ireland even with a WIT upgrade. So that gives that "half baked" theory of yours a decent burial
Upgrading WIT does not prevent Ireland developing world class Universities. And balance regional development/investment is a "national need".
It was a political stoke but not by Waterford. Waterford had next to no political influence in the government for that period so it was a definite recognition that something needed to be done to deliver some sort of University level institution to Waterford and the region. The WIT upgrade was almost a given until the same clowns who tried to repeat the same thing they did with the VEC's interfered with the process for their own political careers.
Work away, You are so wound up at this stage it's not worth discussing it with you.0 -
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fuzzy dunlop wrote: »There, there. Go on over to the Carlow thread:D There ya go!
In fairness fuzzy your rants are muddying the waters here on the TU issue.Play the ball not the man0 -
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In fairness fuzzy your rants are muddying the waters here on the TU issue.Play the ball not the man
I will stand over my posts and stand over my posting style. Especially as a certain types of antagonistic post and poster usually from the same quarters tend to be given free reign here. Just look at who is "thanking posts" and posting jpegs.This was already clamped down on on another thread as being antagonistic yet its been going on here for days by the same people. The earlier thread on this was pretty remarkable too in how one particular poster trolled it who finally got banned after a ridiculous amount of time. If you want I will discuss it with you by PM in order to keep thread on topic..0 -
It is interesting to see how much nasty bile comes into the WIT upgrade debate.
The proposal on the table is to offer a micky-mouse upgrade to half of the IoTs in the 1st wave, with the rest to follow soon after. By my calculation two IoTs (Dundalk and Limerick) are currently not pursuing technological university status. This is exactly what everyone says we should not be doing- repeating the Thatcher mistake of upgrading all the polys in the UK.
At the moment, from a much lower resource base- WIT, by most of the important metrics (research, engagement and teaching) is better or very close to the performance of Maynooth and DCU. If you care about this stuff it is worth trawling through the HEA website stats section.
WIT management and faculty are at one on this issue. A TU will not solve the problems in the south-east's economy. The instability in the IoT sector is generated by the need for the south-east to close the economic gap that has opened with the rest of the country. Politicians need to focus on what was asked for- not the crazy bait and switch of TU/merger.0 -
WIT management and faculty are at one on this issue. A TU will not solve the problems in the south-east's economy. The instability in the IoT sector is generated by the need for the south-east to close the economic gap that has opened with the rest of the country. Politicians need to focus on what was asked for- not the crazy bait and switch of TU/merger.
Well said the idea that seems to be peddled by a lot of the politicans is that the TU would be a panacea to all the southeast problems.It would help but do nothing to sort out the larger issueof lack of investment in the southeast.0 -
fuzzy dunlop wrote: »I will stand over my posts and stand over my posting style. Especially as a certain types of antagonistic post and poster usually from the same quarters tend to be given free reign here. Just look at who is "thanking posts" and posting jpegs.This was already clamped down on on another thread as being antagonistic yet its been going on here for days by the same people. The earlier thread on this was pretty remarkable too in how one particular poster trolled it who finally got banned after a ridiculous amount of time. If you want I will discuss it with you by PM in order to keep thread on topic..
I agree the debate can be quite heated and there seems to be a level of debate coming out of Carlow that is simply to bash WIT.This is reflected in some of their official press releases and their repsentatives appearances on local radio ( two interviews on Kclr before christmas).Personally I have nothing against Itcarlow , it's a fine college and has done a really good job improving it's courses and facilities over the last few years.
What gets me is that they seem think wit isn't up to much but still want to merge with us.One of their press releases was so condescending saying how carlow would help WIT with their financial and structural management.Like we were some bad boy college they were going to rehabilitate.0 -
fuzzy dunlop wrote: »There, there. Go on over to the Carlow thread:D There ya go!
Sorry Fuzzy, I'm still here. Just not going to waste time on you until you calm down.
I didn't every post on the Carlow thread and not going to.
It was a beautiful day out there today.. get some air.0 -
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Guys, give it a rest.
I'd remind you that you should be attacking the post, NOT the poster.
If people want to get personal then do by all means, but don't cry about it when you get banned or infracted.0 -
Sorry Fuzzy, I'm still here. Just not going to waste time on you until you calm down.
I didn't every post on the Carlow thread and not going to.
It was a beautiful day out there today.. get some air.
Listen nobody here has a beef with Carlow IT. But is as plain as the nose on your face that several of the posters who come on here "pretending" to be impartial are in reality batting for another IT.And with respect you are one of them. And despite all the protestations from Carlow about being some injured party they are not. They have played a cynical game with regard to the University issue since before the Port Report was published.The openly exploited the "fears" expressed in that report by applying for an upgrade immediately after WIT did, perhaps within a day. And within the region the one issue of consensus on the SERA was the acquisition of a Uni for the region and the best chance of delivering this was agreed through several compromises to be by upgrading WIT.They only county in the region whoever had a problem with this approach was Carlow.0 -
Just posting some facts here for reference. Interesting that the only criteria met by either college is staff Level 9s and Lifelong Learning figures....both at ITC.
It seems that much work has to be before either college could even be considered.WHAT MAKES A UNIVERSITY? THE CRITERIA FOR TU STATUS- A target of 90 per cent of staff at Level 9 (master’s) of the Hetac qualifications framework, and 45 per cent at Level 10 (doctorate). Currently, there are 89 per cent and 31 per cent, respectively, at WIT; and 96 per cent and 28 per cent at IT Carlow.
- Target of 4 per cent of postgraduate research students at Levels 9 or 10. Currently, WIT has 3 per cent, while IT Carlow has 2 per cent.
- Target of 30 per cent of students to be in lifelong learning (mature/returning students). Currently, WIT has 15 per cent, while Carlow has 38 per cent.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/southeast-college-merger-a-suitable-match-or-a-forced-marriage-1.21016690 -
PeteFalk78 wrote: »Just posting some facts here for reference. Interesting that the only criteria met by either college is staff Level 9s and Lifelong Learning figures....both at ITC.
It seems that much work has to be before either college could even be considered.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/southeast-college-merger-a-suitable-match-or-a-forced-marriage-1.2101669
According to who?These are totally ropey figures and don't match the official HEA figures or requirements by a long shot. The commitment to lifelong learning is also totally nebulous in nature. These statements are nothing to get excited about even if they are true.0 -
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fuzzy dunlop wrote: »According to who?These are totally ropey figures
According to the Irish Times. As in one of the leading national newspapers. Of course you could claim that their figures and research are totally wrong but it's very doubtful. I'd guess these figures were gleaned from FoI requests.fuzzy dunlop wrote: »These statements are nothing to get excited about even if they are true.
Which statements?0
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