Waterford University discussion

fuzzy dunlop

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

According to the Irish Times. As in one of the leading national newspapers. Of course you could claim that their figures and research are totally wrong but it's very doubtful. I'd guess these figures were gleaned from FoI requests.?

They are completely at odds with the latest figures from the HEA. And its is well known that the Irish times is not what it was despite its reputation as the "paper of record". There is a massive disparity between WIT and ITC in the officialy figures apart from part time students which Carlow has in greater number.

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Which statements?

The one that you copied and pasted here which also included what are apparently incorrect figures.. These are the criteria according to who? The HEA? The UN? The government? The article doesn't say. Most of the article is pretty general in nature and unreliable.

PeteFalk78

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

They are completely at odds with the latest figures from the HEA. And its is well known that the Irish times is not what it was despite its reputation as the "paper of record". There is a massive disparity between WIT and ITC in the officialy figures apart from part time students which Carlow has in greater number.

Do you have these figures at hand? Are you disputing that the ITC figures are too high, WIT too low or the criteria for TU designation is incorrect? Or a mixture of everything?

fuzzy dunlop

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Do you have these figures at hand? Are you disputing that the ITC figures are too high, WIT too low or the criteria for TU designation is incorrect? Or a mixture of everything?

You can't say if the criteria is correct or not. It doesn't say who or what determines the criteria. For example by statute or best international practice, OECD whoever. Its seems strange that the focus is so narrow and selective that it converges almost exactly on the few areas where the two institutes converge and ignores vast areas where the one institution has huge advantages.

http://www.hea.ie/node/1352

PeteFalk78

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

http://www.hea.ie/node/1352

I've looked there. I couldn't find anything in relation to statistics in that article by the Irish Times (not just WIT but any college). Generally speaking a highly respected broadsheet such as the Irish Times will have their figures right.

Do such papers normally name their sources?

Could you specify which of the figures in the IT article you have issues with?

PeteFalk78

The journalist was spot on with his figures with relation to TU criteria. Makes it even more unlikely that he got other figures wrong.

http://www.tu4dublin.ie/contentfiles/publications/Process-and-Criteria-for-Designation-as-a-Technological-University.pdf

Research

enrolment in the applicant institution in research programmes at Levels 9-10 will not be less than 4% of FTE enrolments at levels 8 to 10. In addition, the application must evidence a developmental trajectory, showing that the institution will raise these enrolments to
7% within a period of ten years from the date of designation. Level 10 provision will be concentrated in a small number of fields/departments which have the capacity and credibility to offer this level of study and training to the level set by the national PhD standard

Lifelong Learning

a combined minimum of 30% of all students in the applicant institution will be lifelong learning students enrolled on professional focused programmes and industry up-skilling, including part-time, work-related programmes and work-study programmes and/or mature learners.

Staff qualifications

90 % of full time, academic staff engaged in delivering higher education programmes in the applicant institution will hold a Level 9 qualification or higher.

at least 45% per cent of full time, higher education, academic staff, will hold
a Level 10 qualification

fuzzy dunlop

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

The journalist was spot on with his figures with relation to TU criteria. Makes it even more unlikely that he got other figures wrong.

http://www.tu4dublin.ie/contentfiles/publications/Process-and-Criteria-for-Designation-as-a-Technological-University.pdf

Research


Lifelong Learning


Staff qualifications

So the journalist reproduces broadly what's in a HEA document and doesn't say its his source. This is very shoddy journalism. We're not talking about a whistle blower here.

And none of this is a requirement to be a University. It is only the HEA's "requirement" for their particular brand of a "merged TU". This is totally discredited now due to the level of political interference that occurred. And its easy to see now why? The criteria laid down in this is just aimed at creating a merger and a name change in other words keeping the status quo but in reality reducing education delivery in the region. It is so narrowly defined that it allows Carlow IT in theory make an application. There are other factors such as PHD enrollements that Carlow barely even registers when compared to WIT and range of course on offer and level 9 and 10 enrollments. There is no logic to this criteria. It is like a a mix of points of two documents. One that forces the institutions to provide a bust of level 7 courses and another that directs to optimize the institution for rankings. The part time enrollment focus is particularly dubious as it is seen as a negative in countries that dominate the league tables

http://people.stern.nyu.edu/jsimonof/classes/2301/pdf/colmlog.pdf

invara

I work in WIT and have seen our own numbers.

The criteria was set after a lot of political activity, and lobbying from the university sector (see John Walshe's book An Education where he discusses the pressure put on Quinn by the uni presidents). The three most recently created universities (NUIM, DCU and UL) were not required to go through any process. More interesting, the criteria continue on after being met, so if a new TU did not hit further milestones they might lose the title- a doomsday scenario no other Irish university faces.

The primary distinction with IoT and University is the level of funding. It is clear that WIT is very close to hitting the metrics without any additional funding, one big push is all we need. So for example we currently have 3.6% PhD enrolments, and have supervision capacity for over 6%, so about 3/4 million euro pushed into research proposals would bring us up to the 4%. Of course undergrad enrolment is expected to push on this year, but broadly we feel we are there or there abouts. The staff PhD thing is harder, based on some interpretations we are there now (accepting equivalents) and a tougher stance can be met with some hiring (modest in nature and sorely needed in any event). Life long criteria is a ball of nothing- a sop to the weaker IoTs and those anxious about mission drift of the sector. If the TU were to be funded as a proper university then it would be no problem to hit all the numbers.

The real point is that their is no value becoming a TU. It is the same as the RTC-to-IoT dance of 20 years ago. It achieves nothing for the citizens of the south east. Nothing!

imacman

invara wrote: »

I work in WIT and have seen our own numbers.

The criteria was set after a lot of political activity, and lobbying from the university sector (see John Walshe's book An Education where he discusses the pressure put on Quinn by the uni presidents). The three most recently created universities (NUIM, DCU and UL) were not required to go through any process. More interesting, the criteria continue on after being met, so if a new university did not hit further milestones they might lose the title- an doomsday scenario no other Irish university faces.

The primary distinction with IoT and University is the level of funding. It is clear that WIT is very close to hitting the metrics without any additional funding, one big push is all we need. So for example we currently have 3.6% PhD enrolments, and have supervision capacity for over 6%, so about 3/4 million euro pushed into research proposals would bring us up to the 4%. Of course undergrad enrolment is expected to push on this year, but broadly we feel we are there or there abouts. The staff PhD thing is harder, based on some interpretations we are there now (accepting equivalents) and a tougher stance can be met with some hiring (modest in nature and sorely needed in any event). Life long criteria is a ball of nothing- a sop to the weaker IoTs and those anxious about mission drift of the sector. If the TU were to be funded as a proper university then it would be no problem to hit all the numbers.

The real point is that their is no value becoming a TU. It is the same as the RTC-to-IoT dance of 20 years ago. It achieves nothing for the citizens of the south east. Nothing!

Great comment, 110% agree

fuzzy dunlop

invara wrote: »

I work in WIT and have seen our own numbers.

The criteria was set after a lot of political activity, and lobbying from the university sector (see John Walshe's book An Education where he discusses the pressure put on Quinn by the uni presidents). The three most recently created universities (NUIM, DCU and UL) were not required to go through any process. More interesting, the criteria continue on after being met, so if a new university did not hit further milestones they might lose the title- an doomsday scenario no other Irish university faces.

The primary distinction with IoT and University is the level of funding. It is clear that WIT is very close to hitting the metrics without any additional funding, one big push is all we need. So for example we currently have 3.6% PhD enrolments, and have supervision capacity for over 6%, so about 3/4 million euro pushed into research proposals would bring us up to the 4%. Of course undergrad enrolment is expected to push on this year, but broadly we feel we are there or there abouts. The staff PhD thing is harder, based on some interpretations we are there now (accepting equivalents) and a tougher stance can be met with some hiring (modest in nature and sorely needed in any event). Life long criteria is a ball of nothing- a sop to the weaker IoTs and those anxious about mission drift of the sector. If the TU were to be funded as a proper university then it would be no problem to hit all the numbers.

The real point is that their is no value becoming a TU. It is the same as the RTC-to-IoT dance of 20 years ago. It achieves nothing for the citizens of the south east. Nothing!

http://www.rte.ie/news/player/prime-time/2014/1104/

The prime time broadcast for anyone who is interested. The whole thing has been hijacked and manipulated by vested interests. The dice has been loaded by lobbying from the University sector who want to keep WIT as an IT (RTC) and don't want a University in Waterford full stop. And the local politicians who are using it as a back door for so they can hive off departments to their own constituencies. This would be the kiss of death for WIT and third and fourth level education in the region.

fuzzy dunlop

Interesting article from Forbes. I think the "world class" university ambition reads league tables. Which are good for the Institutions reputation. However they are potentially disastrous when it comes to delivering on social and economic needs. It certainly makes a joke of the HEA TU criteria which neglects PHD enrollment numbers and insists on a "certain type" of mergers for some mysterious pre-ordained reasons.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/10/world-class-best-university-ranking-world-bank-opinions-colleges-salmi.html

imacman

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

insists on a "certain type" of mergers for some mysterious pre-ordained reasons.

WIT and Carlow IT was the only merger insisted upon by the HEA. All of the other institutes had a choice of who they wanted to approach for a merger if they wanted to do it at all.Another example of the what a political football this whole endeavor is

fuzzy dunlop

http://www.kilkennyadvertiser.ie/index.php?aid=9107

difference being a more likelihood of everyone singing from the same hymn sheet. A tantalising example of the potential for a Regional Authority with more teeth was published in the Kilkenny Advertiser in 2006 (see excerpt below) entitled “ Support for WIT could push Carlow closer to Dublin”.
“Last week Cllr Des Hurley, a Carlow representative on the south-east regional authority (SERA), said it was nothing new to see the region supporting WIT’s application while simultaneously ignoring Carlow’s claims.
“This is nothing new, members of SERA have been talking about something like this happening for the last three years,” he said.
He said Carlow representatives had been seeking a multi-campus approach where IT Carlow would be given equal recognition alongside WIT to no avail.
“The chamber of commerce in the south-east are also looking for WIT to be upgraded,” he noted, “it’s up in the air at the moment.”
At a vote taken in one regional meeting Cllr Hurley said the only people who had voted for Carlow to be upgraded were the Carlow delegates. “

The above excerpt highlights how at the regional assembly level a consensus was found that is hard to imagine at County/City council level. What this beautifully illustrates is that even though there is dissent in the form of the parochial politics from Carlow it was nullified by a pragmatic approach by all the other counties representatives. Furthermore the substance of the story that Carlow “would leave” the South East Region and throw in their lot with the Greater Dublin area is something that is in all probability unlikely to be entertained by any Government .The final sentence in the excerpt below quoting the Carlow Count Manager shows that there is a realization that Carlow’s place is within the South East Region despite a desire that things could be different.
“
“Bagenalstown Cllr Arthur McDonald is one councillor who has come out in favour of Carlow completely severing ties with the south-east and firmly aligning itself with Dublin to capitalise on the obvious links.
Last year he went as far as to say Carlow could be viewed as part of the greater Dublin area with the improvement in infrastructure linking the two and the numbers of commuters working in the capital and living in Carlow. Interestingly new county manager, Tom Barry, was recently noncommittal on the issue of a south-east university, suggesting Carlow already had strong second and third level education and highlighting the importance of maintaining quality links to the north.
As a newcomer to the county, Mr Barry said his vision was directed by the public representatives and staff within the local authority.
And that vision seems to be strongly focused on Carlow’s relationship with Dublin and the fruits that could bear, with Unum and Merck and Co tantalising examples.
While Mr Barry was understandably unwilling to cut all ties with the south-east, he said Carlow needed to look north as well as the south. “
There are many other benefits of reforming local government based on the regional authorities.. ....

There was an interesting article in the Kilkenny Advertiser in 2006 by John Cleere that was very prescient and I think shows the true root of the diasagreement and that it goes back over 10 years The link no longer works but I found it quoted in a blog. John Cleere has had a pop at Waterford more then once but at least he could show the Irish Times how to write an article with proper sources. The impression I get ftom the IT article is that it is a type of "planned leak" designed to condition public opinion.

...It also shows the source of the "merger" idea.

fiachr_a

invara wrote: »

The primary distinction with IoT and University is the level of funding.

The primary distinction is that the smarter students mostly head to the top universities in the country. Even if WIT got upgraded that wouldn't stop the brain drain out of Waterford.

imacman

fiachr_a wrote: »

The primary distinction is that the smarter students mostly head to the top universities in the country. Even if WIT got upgraded that wouldn't stop the brain drain out of Waterford.

Not necessarily true, there are a number of factors which determine a students third level choices.While a large number of higher points student will go the the universities in the larger cities factors like cost of living and accommodation and type of course come into play.
For example the WIT Course in agriculture is on a par with any similar courses in the university's (and has a similar entry points level) and has some great features like the tie in with Kildalton. So lots of students come to WIT because of that and add in the cost of accommodation in Waterford compared to Dublin or Cork its a very attractive option.

RYGCat

RYGCat wrote: »

So if this is an interim until 2017 and then the interim is replaced, that'll be 5 presidents in 6 years. Not great for stability, governance and management.

So Willie Donnelly has been appointed as interim. It'll be interesting to see how he gets on in the 90 weeks between now and January 2017. As the 4th appointee to the position in 4 years, hope he can deal with the stability, governance and management issues.

imacman

Willie Donnelly is a great appointment , his record as head of research is second to none. He has publicly been quite skeptical about the TU and has been on local radio making WIT case in relation to this.He is the real deal ,a tough negotiator as well as good leader and no political lapdog like is predecessor which is exactly what the college needs now.

wellboytoo

imacman wrote: »

Willie Donnelly is a great appointment , his record as head of research is second to none. He has publicly been quite skeptical about the TU and has been on local radio making WIT case in relation to this.He is the real deal ,a tough negotiator as well as good leader and no political lapdog like is predecessor which is exactly what the college needs now.

Imacman doesn't leave a hair on it!!!!!!

imacman

Piece in times today
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/waterford-it-appoints-new-president-at-important-phase-in-its-history-1.2184182#.VTbLSf34M24.twitter

Max Powers

He's certainly got the credientials and highly successful in his work, will he be able to fight Min.for education and whatever else is difficult to know, best of luck to him, this kelly report (3rd one now is it) will probably make matters worse by recommending merger go ahead without major changes to process.

imacman

Max Powers wrote: »

He's certainly got the credientials and highly successful in his work, will he be able to fight Min.for education and whatever else is difficult to know, best of luck to him, this kelly report (3rd one now is it) will probably make matters worse by recommending merger go ahead without major changes to process.

The Kelly report that was meant to be out in January , then March and now sometime in the summer.The closer we get to the election the less important this issue will be to the politicians.
The merger situation is such a mess it has actually become toxic for Brendan Howlin who must have thought the could have put "the politician who brought a university to the south east" in his reelection propaganda.Instead its has been shown as another politically motivated fudge and with the other main architect big Phil gone and the TUI on strike notice the political appetite for this waning by the day.

My Guess - Kelly report gets delayed -released late summer/early Autumn
Kelly report says everything is great and the merger should go ahead, ( as expected)
With a election on the horizon the government don't need more hassle about this with the TUI and local Waterford Councillors against the merger.
Nothing is done and status quo is maintained till after the election.
Once a new government comes in depending on how that plays out the whole landscape of this process could change.

Wild card in this whole situation is the CIT TraleeIT merger , the wheels have started to come off that process with more union rumblings. If that goes sour the whole process becomes discredited and the DIT merger is the only one to go forward . ( which was always going to be a smoother process as it is a defaco university anyway and has the Grangegorman investment behind it).

RYGCat

On the WIT website, the membership of the Executive Board shows no females?? Surely that can't be right- bearing in mind the gender equality issues in NUI Galway??

fiachr_a

That only applies to universities.

rayr

RYGCat wrote: »

On the WIT website, the membership of the Executive Board shows no females?? Surely that can't be right- bearing in mind the gender equality issues in NUI Galway??

The Secretary/Financial Controller is female and a member of exec board.

invara

Women are far to smart to go for the senior jobs in WIT, given the short life expectancy of WIT senior managers!


... tongue in cheek comment!

Wanderer78

invara wrote: »

Women are far to smart to go for the senior jobs in WIT, given the short life expectancy of WIT senior managers!


... tongue in cheek comment!

hahaha very good

kingsofoffaly

They'll have to close the dome down so if this is true. In AIT they closed college bar due wanting to become a university.

imacman

kingsofoffaly wrote: »

They'll have to close the dome down so if this is true. In AIT they closed college bar due wanting to become a university.

Don't know where you are getting that from , all of the universities have bars plus AIT aren't looking for University status

kingsofoffaly

imacman wrote: »

Don't know where you are getting that from , all of the universities have bars plus AIT aren't looking for University status

http://www.ait.ie/aboutaitandathlone/newsevents/pressreleases/2014pressreleases/title-27333-en.html
Been attending the college for two years. That the reason we were told college bar closed. And the link above will tell you about AIT becoming a university.

callaway92

kingsofoffaly wrote: »

http://www.ait.ie/aboutaitandathlone/newsevents/pressreleases/2014pressreleases/title-27333-en.html
Been attending the college for two years. That the reason we were told college bar closed. And the link above will tell you about AIT becoming a university.

lol, they lied to you.

Dome isn't going anywhere.

Whatsisname

If the dome went there'd be a civil war among the muck savages.