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Waterford University discussion

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    #1052
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    It's common knowledge that WIT wanted the TUSE headquarters in Waterford. WIT are the bigger college and flexed their muscles in the initial discussions - I have first hand experience of this.

    At no stage did Carlow think they are better than Waterford but wanted to stand their ground on consolidation because they could very very easily have been swallowed up by WIT.

    It's obvious you are very pro-Carlow and I understand that. Can I ask you what you think of the plans to add campuses in Wexford and Kilkenny. Is this something you would be opposed to?


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    #1053
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    O Riain wrote: »
    It's obvious you are very pro-Carlow and I understand that. Can I ask you what you think of the plans to add campuses in Wexford and Kilkenny. Is this something you would be opposed to?

    Carlow already has a sizeable campus in Wexford and has been a major success. There is no reason why a proposed Kilkenny campus wouldn't be equally successful.

    I am very pro merging, I believe to move forward both colleges need to work together and leave their egos behind.


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    #1054
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Carlow already has a sizeable campus in Wexford and has been a major success. There is no reason why a proposed Kilkenny campus wouldn't be equally successful.

    I am very pro merging, I believe to move forward both colleges need to work together and leave their egos behind.

    I honestly cannot see this as being anything other than a complete and utter mess spread out over the entire region simply because Howlin and Hogan wanted campuses in their constituencies.

    Look what other regions have and look what we have and tell me that the South East is not getting screwed over here. If people in Carlow want to focus on what they do not like about W.I.T rather than what we deserve as a region then the war is lost already.

    Limerick has an I.T, a University and a large teaching College. It's almost more than the whole South East combined has and it is an absolute disgrace.


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    #1055
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    RYGCat wrote: »
    More misinformation there, Fuzzy!

    The third and fourth largest IoTs in terms of student numbers. Carlow has the highest number of lifelong learners. Carlow has the highest % of postgrads in the IoT sector according to the latest HEA figures.

    As for political strokes, it was WIT's President and Chair approached Carlow seeking a merger. (Beware Greeks bearing gifts!)

    No misinformation. Just Uncomfortable truths for you. Carlow was never considered for upgrade. Never! It hadn't a snowballs chance and its application previous application was a cynical attempt to exploit fears laid down in the port report. And the lifelong learner figures and all the other ballix have no relevance to any institution meeting requirements except for the SE TU clustef*ck which has been exposed as a political stunt.


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    #1056
    RYGCat
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭RYGCat


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    No misinformation. Just Uncomfortable truths for you. Carlow was never considered for upgrade. Never! It hadn't a snowballs chance and its application previous application was a cynical attempt to exploit fears laid down in the port report. And the lifelong learner figures and all the other ballix have no relevance to any institution meeting requirements except for the SE TU clustef*ck which has been exposed as a political stunt.

    Being selective again.

    What 'application previous application'?

    As to the approach by the WIT President and Chair about the merger- this dates back to before the appointment of the former President of Carlow to WIT??

    Bear in mind as I've said before, the current Acting President of WIT was a member of the WIT executive involved in TU discussions.


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    #1057
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    RYGCat wrote: »
    Being selective again.

    What 'application previous application'?

    As to the approach by the WIT President and Chair about the merger- this dates back to before the appointment of the former President of Carlow to WIT??

    Bear in mind as I've said before, the current Acting President of WIT was a member of the WIT executive involved in TU discussions.


    You obviously have no clue. If you did you would know that following WIT's application after the publication of the Port report that Carlow cynically exploited a reservation in the report to granting WIT university status for fear of other IoT's looking for "me too" upgrades. The fact that I have to tell you this just shows beautifully how ignorant you are of the whole campaign to get a University in the South East region going back decades. You're talking about current Presidents of both institutions. This issues goes way back to before those individuals were probably doing their leaving cert. Carlow's prospect of achieving some sort of University Status is based on piggy backing off Waterford's efforts going back decades. Where is the history of Carlow's endeavors with regard to University Status? There is none that is not of some consequence of WIT's campaign. The campaign led by Waterford is going back in one shape or form back to before Independence.


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    #1058
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    RYGCat wrote: »
    Bear in mind as I've said before, the current Acting President of WIT was a member of the WIT executive involved in TU discussions.

    Who was also part of the executive board that recommended pulling out of the merger when the backroom deal between the 2 presidents and chairs came to light.( as disclosed by prof donnelly ). You seem very quite on that.

    The independant taylor report also contributed to the WIT pullout which seems to have been completely white washed ( and spare us the line he decided he was wrong coincidentally just days after it was published , its obvious he was got at as his report didn't say what the government and carlow wanted.No wonder he wants nothing to do with the process now)


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    #1059
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    RYGCat wrote: »
    http://www.globalintelligenceforum.com

    Just saw this- maybe WIT should attend?

    This guy is the worst troll I've seen in ages.


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    #1060
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    Carlow's prospect of achieving some sort of University Status is based on piggy backing off Waterford's efforts going back decades. Where is the history of Carlow's endeavors with regard to University Status? There is none that is not of some consequence of WIT's campaign. The campaign led by Waterford is going back in one shape or form back to before Independence.

    Well if the above is the opinion of WIT and its staff, it's very obvious why the whole TUSE process failed and who is to blame.


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    #1061
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Well if the above is the opinion of WIT and its staff, it's very obvious why the whole TUSE process failed and who is to blame.
    In fairness Carlow has never had a campaign for university status and it was only when this TU situation arose in the last few years that it was even contemplated .Waterford has had a campaign for a university going back to the 19th century.


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    #1062
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    imacman wrote: »
    In fairness Carlow has never had a campaign for university status and it was only when this TU situation arose in the last few years that it was even contemplated .Waterford has had a campaign for a university going back to the 19th century.

    And based on the above, you are saying WIT should have a stronger and prominent footing in a merger?


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    #1063
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    And based on the above, you are saying WIT should have a stronger and prominent footing in a merger?

    Absolutely, plus I have heard rumblings that waterford legacy has been taken into account in the kelly report and that WIT is to be setup as the senior partner like DIT is in the dublin TU merger


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    #1064
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    imacman wrote: »
    Absolutely, plus I have heard rumblings that waterford legacy has been taken into account in the kelly report and that WIT is to be setup as the senior partner like DIT is in the dublin TU merger

    Well thanks for backing up my case then that WIT always wanted to be the senior partner. There is no allowance for senior partners in any of the TU criteria despite what "rumblings" you claim to have heard.

    Its obvious that WIT wanted an acquisition more than a merger.


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    #1065
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Well thanks for backing up my case then that WIT always wanted to be the senior partner. There is no allowance for senior partners in any of the TU criteria despite what "rumblings" you claim to have heard.

    Its obvious that WIT wanted an acquisition more than a merger.

    Things are going to get interesting , maybe carlow's past actions are coming back to haunt them.Headquarters and major departments and faculties to be based in Waterford. Government will do whatever it takes to get this moving


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    #1066
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    imacman wrote: »
    Things are going to get interesting , maybe carlow's past actions are coming back to haunt them.Headquarters and major departments and faculties to be based in Waterford. Government will do whatever it takes to get this moving

    Source?


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    #1067
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Well thanks for backing up my case then that WIT always wanted to be the senior partner. There is no allowance for senior partners in any of the TU criteria despite what "rumblings" you claim to have heard.

    Its obvious that WIT wanted an acquisition more than a merger.

    Waterford wanted no such thing. It was Carlow who interfered in WIT's endeavors. So they can't complain now if there is animosity. If Carlow's case is so strong they would have had a chance in their own right like WIT. But they never did. This is the elephant in the room for Carlow. The only people who think this is a good idea is Carlow IT and politicians who think they have an opportunity to deliver some half baked third level institution into their constituency with probably negative consequences for the region as a whole.


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    #1068
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Source?

    Could be the same source that says Carlow's campus in Wexford is a huge success.


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    #1069
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    And based on the above, you are saying WIT should have a stronger and prominent footing in a merger?


    This is not an opinion of WIT staff. It is documented facts as you well know. It is an opinion of a lot of others as has been highlighted by prime time.


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    #1070
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    Fuzzy you are defecating all over this thread. Carlow didn't "interfere" with WIT endeavors - the recommendation was that IoT's need to be merged to apply for a TU upgrade. This "merging" is consistent throughout all discussions, reports and recommendation - however this word is totally lost on WIT.

    They see that historical lobbying for University status (and inevitable refusal) means that they don't need to merge to acquire TU status - even though their EMPLOYERS state that this is an absolute necessity.

    And with regards to "half baked third level institution" - what guarantee that an immediate and isolated upgrade of WIT to TU won't make it a "half baked third level institution" any more so than merging with ITC?


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    #1071
    wellboytoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Fuzzy you are defecating all over this thread. Carlow didn't "interfere" with WIT endeavors - the recommendation was that IoT's need to be merged to apply for a TU upgrade. This "merging" is consistent throughout all discussions, reports and recommendation - however this word is totally lost on WIT.

    They see that historical lobbying for University status (and inevitable refusal) means that they don't need to merge to acquire TU status - even though their EMPLOYERS state that this is an absolute necessity.

    And with regards to "half baked third level institution" - what guarantee that an immediate and isolated upgrade of WIT to TU won't make it a "half baked third level institution" any more so than merging with ITC?

    You have been hammering the CIT angle here and on the Carlow thread for a while, but what you fail to realise is this merger is a political decision, nothing else, promoted for parochial and obfuscating reasons by cynical political/academia interests. Then jumped on by CIT, there does not HAVE to be a merger, it is the choice of the present Government and can change with a fickle electorate, there is No obvious rational for a merger.


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    #1072
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Fuzzy you are defecating all over this thread. Carlow didn't "interfere" with WIT endeavors - the recommendation was that IoT's need to be merged to apply for a TU upgrade. This "merging" is consistent throughout all discussions, reports and recommendation - however this word is totally lost on WIT.

    They see that historical lobbying for University status (and inevitable refusal) means that they don't need to merge to acquire TU status - even though their EMPLOYERS state that this is an absolute necessity.

    And with regards to "half baked third level institution" - what guarantee that an immediate and isolated upgrade of WIT to TU won't make it a "half baked third level institution" any more so than merging with ITC?


    The requirement for institutions to merge has only been there in essence since this government came to power. So your claim "This "merging" is consistent throughout all discussions, reports and recommendation" is a pure falsehood. So don't accuse me of defecating over anything when you are now plainly lying for your own end.The facts are that there was practically a regional consensus on upgrading WIT with exception of Carlow. This is an indisputable truth! Carlow wasn't on board because they wanted it as well. The upgrade of WIT to a TU was already a compromise that allowed the government to provide a University without building a new institution. So the only ones obstructing delivery of a University to the SE is Carlow because of their own notions of self importance.

    As for the HEA which you are talking about like it is some omnipotent entity. Their insistence of a merger as a requirement is not a practical requirement. It is purely arbitrary and driven by politics. It can be undone as easily as it was done. In other words its meaningless. It is a straw that the Carlow lobby are clinging to to ensure they don't miss out!


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    #1073
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    The upgrade of WIT to a TU was already a compromise that allowed the government to provide a University without building a new institution.

    Source?

    We are talking TU here. A TU without a merger was never on the cards.
    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    So the only ones obstructing delivery of a University to the SE is Carlow because of their own notions of self importance.

    Oh the irony.


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    #1074
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Source?

    We are talking TU here. A TU without a merger was never on the cards.

    Now you're just trolling.The sources have been provided here ad nauseum!An upgrade or a University of any description involving Carlow as a location was never on the cards or proposed. It was a given that any University upgrade was centered on WIT. Any new University for the region would also in all likelihood be based in Waterford as that is who lead the campaign. What is for sure it would have been anywhere but Carlow.

    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Oh the irony.

    How is it ironic? I will say it again! Carlow was NEVER in the running for a University. Where is the Boards.ie thread going back years discussing a upgrade for Carlow? Where is the oireachteas questions? Where is the newspaper reports that discuss such a proposal? Whether you like it or not the very prospect of a TU in Carlow without Waterford is as about as likely as a DART to Dingle. That is your harsh reality!

    Here is a clue for you! What forum are you on batting for Carlow IoT


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    #1075
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    The overriding trend throughout this thread

    - Even though they've been told to get lost on countless occasions WIT expect an upgrade
    - WIT wants an upgrade in isolation without any merge with another institution
    - The continuous campaigns are a sign of whats good about WIT and that they shouldn't focus on their mismanagement, awful IT infrastructure and financial "discrepancies"

    The only one beating the University (pre TU) drum and (you've guessed it) are WIT and its councillors.

    The arrogant, haughty and egotistic manner of all the pro-WIT posters here make it absolutely evident that a merger will (and never was) on the cards.

    New WIT slogan - "It's either us and it's nothing"


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    #1076
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    Now you're just trolling.The sources have been provided here ad nauseum!

    No they haven't. Please prove me wrong and I'll wholeheartedly apologise.


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    #1077
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    The overriding trend throughout this thread

    - Even though they've been told to get lost on countless occasions WIT expect an upgrade
    - WIT wants an upgrade in isolation without any merge with another institution
    - The continuous campaigns are a sign of whats good about WIT and that they shouldn't focus on their mismanagement, awful IT infrastructure and financial "discrepancies"

    Nice bit of revisionism there except that you're ignoring 90% of the history of the issue.. Hence you clinging to the IT episode and allegations of financial mismanagement.If historic funding levels per institution were considered it would further show WIT punches way above its weight.

    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    The only one beating the University (pre TU) drum and (you've guessed it) are WIT and its councillors.

    I posted a quote from an article earlier from a Kilkenny Columnist John Cleere (No great friend of Waterford it has to be said)that showed that there was a consensus around the WIT upgrade from the councillors on the SERA with the exception of Carlow who wanted a "merger". This is the root of that idea.
    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    The arrogant, haughty and egotistic manner of all the pro-WIT posters here make it absolutely evident that a merger will (and never was) on the cards.

    The arrogance and haughtiness is wholeheartedly coming from Carlow which is pretending to be on a par with WIT when the history of rankings clearly shows this has never been the case.
    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    New WIT slogan - "It's either us and it's nothing"

    That's your take on it. A more accurate description is Carlows atitude

    "It's either us as well or it's nothing"

    I believe it was Senator John Paul Phelan who expressed it this way. Now that is irony! the kettle calling the pot black:D


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    #1078
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    No they haven't. Please prove me wrong and I'll wholeheartedly apologise.

    They have and I provided more the last time you made this request which seemed to cause you to disappear until yesterday. I am not entertaining you again.


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    #1079
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    They have and I provided more the last time you made this request which seemed to cause you to disappear until yesterday. I am not entertaining you again.

    You have never backed up your claims with sources.
    And check my last posts before my hiatus from this thread and you will find that you again never backed up any of your claims with hard facts/sources. If you ever did you might gain some sort of credibility

    However you are not alone here, many of your cohorts claim that a merger of WIT and ITC will create some frankenstein half baked university (without reasoning or justification) whilst upgrading WIT alone will create some academic utopia to rival the best Universities in Europe (without reasoning or justification).

    And finally, just because WIT have been campaigning for Uni status since the dawn of man, that doesn't automatically mean that they are "next in line" to be upgraded - what a ridiculous conclusion to come to :eek:


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    #1080
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    If historic funding levels per institution were considered it would further show WIT punches way above its weight.

    Source?


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    #1081
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    You have never backed up your claims with sources.
    And check my last posts before my hiatus from this thread and you will find that you again never backed up any of your claims with hard facts/sources. If you ever did you might gain some sort of credibility

    Why would I check your posts?

    Listen keep lying if you wish but anyone who will check through my posts on this topic will see I have provided links to sources. You on the other hand.... The upgrade of WIT in some form was a given. Now this was reported in the Irish times. The complete contrary to this is that IT Carlow had no chance of being upgraded without WIT.

    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    However you are not alone here, many of your cohorts claim that a merger of WIT and ITC will create some frankenstein half baked university (without reasoning or justification) whilst upgrading WIT alone will create some academic utopia to rival the best Universities in Europe (without reasoning or justification).

    Yeah more spurious ballix out of you. Who made comparisons to the best Universities in Europe? Who? So what you actually think ITC and WIT are going to have a shotgun wedding and live happily ever after?

    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    And finally, just because WIT have been campaigning for Uni status since the dawn of man, that doesn't automatically mean that they are "next in line" to be upgraded - what a ridiculous conclusion to come to :eek:

    Nobody made such a claim.....You on the other hand think WIT should be alright with some parasitic relationship with IT Carlow. You have been banging on here about how the requirement of a "merger" is set in stone.

    The merger of WIT to form a TU was initially pitched with Cork until the usual gombeen politicians got involved. This proves that Carlow had no options that didn't involve WIT. The Prime Time link I posted which you are pathologically incapable of acknowledging supports that.


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