Waterford University discussion

fuzzy dunlop

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Source?

Yes provide one.....I dare ya

imacman

Latest update on kelly report here
https://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2015-07-16a.18
Merger looks like it will progress but WIT red line issue is that they are top dog in the process.Carlow and Wexford to become TU campuses.

PeteFalk78

imacman wrote: »

Latest update on kelly report here
https://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2015-07-16a.18
Merger looks like it will progress but WIT red line issue is that they are top dog in the process.Carlow and Wexford to become TU campuses.

That really doesn't say much about the Kelly report itself. Do you know when the report will be published?

Would yourself and fuzzy be happy with a merger if WIT were to be made the "top dog"?

invara

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

That really doesn't say much about the Kelly report itself. Do you know when the report will be published?

Would yourself and fuzzy be happy with a merger if WIT were to be made the "top dog"?

This is very emotive terminology. Most WIT people would be happy with a merger if it contributed to the region. Here are my personal preconditions.
1. a commitment to fund the new institution on the same footing as the other seven universities.
2. a governance structure that supports the existing and future development of the existing WIT and ITC platforms; with the expectation that both could double in size over the next 5-10 years (to catch up with national participation rates)

This is not a debate about who gets the hot seat. This is a chance go get something big for the people of the south-east, or be fobbed off for another generation. If the politicians do not put enough resources and powers on the table both institutions should reject it. Anything less will produce a dynamic of a winner or a loser (one institution eating another's budget) and neither institutions should allow such a distasteful outcome to emerge even if they think they might be the ultimate winner.

7upfree

invara wrote: »

This is not a debate about who gets the hot seat.

It has to be. And MUST be. Otherwise Waterford City will suffer the ramifications for generations to come.

PeteFalk78

7upfree wrote: »

It has to be. And MUST be. Otherwise Waterford City will suffer the ramifications for generations to come.

And what about other areas in the South East?

Shane07

Waterford has been fighting for this for decades with no help from Carlow or the SE but now that Hogan and Howlin are pushing for it why should we accept anything less that HQ and being the main centre!

fuzzy dunlop

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

And what about other areas in the South East?

Waterford is the most important economically. And is the main population centre with the largest catchement area. Carlows growth in the last few years has been driven by people forced out of the Dublin area by boom time property prices. Completely unsustainable. The core of the South East is between Wexford and Clonmel via Waterford along the main river systems. Some people wish to pretend otherwise with talk of "Catchment areas " that rightly belong to other towns like Portlaoise, Athlone and Arklow/Gorey

PeteFalk78

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Waterford is the most important economically.

How?

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

And is the main population centre

The city is, not the county.
http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/population/populationofeachprovincecountyandcity2011/

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

with the largest catchement area.

Rubbish. All counties in immediate proximity to Carlow - Laois, Wexford, Kilkenny, Wicklow and Kildare don't have any primary 3rd level campus.

Whilst Waterford have Wexford, Kilkenny, Cork and Tipperary with the latter two already having Unis and/or IoTs present.

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Carlows growth in the last few years has been driven by people forced out of the Dublin area by boom time property prices. Completely unsustainable.

Why is it completely unsustainable? Are you expecting these people to return to Dublin? Based on what?

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

The core of the South East is between Wexford and Clonmel via Waterford along the main river systems. Some people wish to pretend otherwise with talk of "Catchment areas " that rightly belong to other towns like Portlaoise, Athlone and Arklow/Gorey

More rubbish. Kilkenny, Carlow, Wexford and Waterford are all core areas in the SE.

fuzzy dunlop

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

How?

The city is, not the county.
http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/population/populationofeachprovincecountyandcity2011/

Counties don't matter cities do. Economic activity is driven by cities not counties due to the economies of scale that the have the communications links. Again every sustainable planning principle supports this. All the economic infrastructure has the Waterford area as its hub. Roads, Telecoms, Electricity, Gas. There is a reason for this.

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Rubbish. All counties in immediate proximity to Carlow - Laois, Wexford, Kilkenny, Wicklow and Kildare don't have any primary 3rd level campus.

Whilst Waterford have Wexford, Kilkenny, Cork and Tipperary with the latter two already having Unis and/or IoTs present.

So what? Just because a county doesn't have something doesn't mean that it should. Cork is almost the size of the South East in area.Wicklow and Kildare are in Greater Dublin Are you seriously suggesting services should be delivered on a county level? This is pure insanity. Using counties as a means of determining where services go is a sleight of hand. Waterfords catchment area stretches into Kilkenny Wexford and South Tipp.

Again counties don't matter. If they did Leitrim would be as important as Dublin and only a fool would suggest this to be the case

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Why is it completely unsustainable? Are you expecting these people to return to Dublin? Based on what?

This is well known and has been practically the national discussion for the last twenty years. There has been millions of words written in academia, tribunals and the latest banking inquiry. Vincent Brown, Prime Time,Questions and Anwers, The Frontline, Today Tonight, You name it. Have you had your head in the sand? See Frank MacDonalds submission to the banking inquiry which is a testimony to the fact that the population growth approximately 50 miles from Dublin has been driven by atrocious planning and even corruption. The very activity in other words that has bankrupted the country and given a boost to areas like Carlow. However the cost has been the the financial destruction of the state.

https://inquiries.oireachtas.ie/banking/hearings/frank-mcdonald-relationships-between-state-authorities-political-parties-elected-representatives/

http://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publications/workingpapers/gearywp201311.pdf

https://www.ucd.ie/gpep/research/workingpapers/2006/06-01.pdf
https://irelandafternama.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/williams-and-boyle-2012.pdf


http://www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/phonohan/What%20went%20wrong.pdf

http://www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/phonohan/What%20went%20wrong.pdf

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

More rubbish. Kilkenny, Carlow, Wexford and Waterford are all core areas in the SE.

There can only be one "core " area by definition. That is Waterford. Waterford and Tramore between them have the combined population of Carlow, Kilkenny and WexfordUrban areas . The environs of Waterford has the combined population of the environs of nearly all the large towns in the SE.

imacman

invara wrote: »

This is very emotive terminology. Most WIT people would be happy with a merger if it contributed to the region. Here are my personal preconditions.
1. a commitment to fund the new institution on the same footing as the other seven universities.
2. a governance structure that supports the existing and future development of the existing WIT and ITC platforms; with the expectation that both could double in size over the next 5-10 years (to catch up with national participation rates)

This is not a debate about who gets the hot seat. This is a chance go get something big for the people of the south-east, or be fobbed off for another generation. If the politicians do not put enough resources and powers on the table both institutions should reject it. Anything less will produce a dynamic of a winner or a loser (one institution eating another's budget) and neither institutions should allow such a distasteful outcome to emerge even if they think they might be the ultimate winner.

Very fair comment, entirely agree

PeteFalk78

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

So what? Just because a county doesn't have something doesn't mean that it should. Cork is almost the size of the South East in area.Wicklow and Kildare are in Greater Dublin Are you seriously suggesting services should be delivered on a county level? This is pure insanity. Using counties as a means of determining where services go is a sleight of hand. Waterfords catchment area stretches into Kilkenny Wexford and South Tipp.

Again counties don't matter. If they did Leitrim would be as important as Dublin and only a fool would suggest this to be the case

I never implied that the surrounding counties should have services delivered - can't see why you came to that conclusion. My response was to your point being that Waterford has the "biggest catchment area".

I was pointing out that the counties immediately surrounding Carlow don't have a primary 3rd level presence and therefore less competition for students. Carlow get a huge amount of students from Laois, Kildare and SE highest population Wexford.

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

This is well known and has been practically the national discussion for the last twenty years. There has been millions of words written in academia, tribunals and the latest banking inquiry. Vincent Brown, Prime Time,Questions and Anwers, The Frontline, Today Tonight, You name it. Have you had your head in the sand? See Frank MacDonalds submission to the banking inquiry which is a testimony to the fact that the population growth approximately 50 miles from Dublin has been driven by atrocious planning and even corruption. The very activity in other words that has bankrupted the country and given a boost to areas like Carlow. However the cost has been the the financial destruction of the state.

https://inquiries.oireachtas.ie/banking/hearings/frank-mcdonald-relationships-between-state-authorities-political-parties-elected-representatives/

http://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publications/workingpapers/gearywp201311.pdf

https://www.ucd.ie/gpep/research/workingpapers/2006/06-01.pdf
https://irelandafternama.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/williams-and-boyle-2012.pdf


http://www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/phonohan/What%20went%20wrong.pdf

http://www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/phonohan/What%20went%20wrong.pdf

Great to see some sources for once. Pity that none of them back up your argument that the population shift (because of the boom and bust) is it unsustainable to ITC? Given that tens of thousands cannot pay their mortgage and even more are in negative equity then any shift of population back towards greater Dublin is unlikely.

In fact Dublin is seeing the quickest property price recovery so people are STILL being forced to move to the commuter belt (e.g. Carlow and catchment areas) to acquire accomodation
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/ireland/Price-History

fuzzy dunlop wrote:

There can only be one "core " area by definition. That is Waterford. Waterford and Tramore between them have the combined population of Carlow, Kilkenny and WexfordUrban areas . The environs of Waterford has the combined population of the environs of nearly all the large towns in the SE.

But the 2nd slowest growing urban area in SE between 2006-2011.
Wexford and Carlow are 1st and 2nd respectively

Wexford +125%
Carlow +8.3%
Waterford +2.2%
Kilkenny -.1%

http://www.cso.ie/census/table8.htm

fuzzy dunlop

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

I never implied that the surrounding counties should have services delivered - can't see why you came to that conclusion. My response was to your point being that Waterford has the "biggest catchment area".

So what was your point? And Waterford does have the biggest catchement area.

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

I was pointing out that the counties immediately surrounding Carlow don't have a primary 3rd level presence and therefore less competition for students. Carlow get a huge amount of students from Laois, Kildare and SE highest population Wexford.

You are wrong there too. NUI Maynooth is in Kildare and has an outreach with Kilkenny. Nonetheless it still doesn't imply "less competition". I would hazard a guess that more students from these counties attend WIT and more apply for WIT. The last time I checked there was more students from Carlow in WIT than in IoT Carlow. If this is still not the case it is a relatively new phenomena.

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Great to see some sources for once. Pity that none of them back up your argument that the population shift (because of the boom and bust) is it unsustainable to ITC?

Quit lying! I have posted sources from Prime Time, Forbes and Local Kilkenny Newspapers that have among the most recent. And the last links I posted completely confirm that Carlow's growth is due primarily to the biggest property bubble in world history in any country. In other words its unsustainable. But even so the figures for a face value indicate a growth rate that would take decades to surpass Waterford. Considereing this growth rate was driven by a bubble then it is in all likelhood never going to happen and would need zero growth in Waterford.. And from a planning perspective should be actively discouraged.

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Given that tens of thousands cannot pay their mortgage and even more are in negative equity then any shift of population back towards greater Dublin is unlikely.

I bet many will leave given the chance. Especially as Carlow has the highest number of Ghost Estates in the South East.
https://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/ghost-estates-per-county/


I

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

n fact Dublin is seeing the quickest property price recovery so people are STILL being forced to move to the commuter belt (e.g. Carlow and catchment areas) to acquire accomodation
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/ireland/Price-History

Are they? You got all this from a property price recovery. Houses are still way below their peak and the availability of housing in North Kildare and Meath is much more affordable.

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

But the 2nd slowest growing urban area in SE between 2006-2011.
Wexford and Carlow are 1st and 2nd respectively


http://www.cso.ie/census/table8.htm

Except this growth rate is only within the City Boundary.The growth rate for Waterford environs No.1 and No.2 in Tramore and Ferrybank area surpass Carlow and unlike Carlow not caused by developer driven property mania Waterfords suburbs in Kilkenny account for half of County Kilkenny's growth rate. It is also of intereset that the "urban populations" of Carlow and Kilkenny are actually including "environs" which is not "urban" in nature. So the fact is the fastest growing urban area with nvirons is still Waterford.

7upfree

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

And what about other areas in the South East?

What about them? They've shown they don't give a stuff about Waterford.

JaCrispy

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I bet many will leave given the chance. Especially as Carlow has the highest number of Ghost Estates in the South East.

Wexford and Kilkenny have more

maynoothuniversity.ie/research/people-place-and-environment/spatial-analysis/projects/ghost-estates-ireland

Carlow (15), Cavan (21), Clare (9), Cork City (6), County Cork (90), Donegal (22), Dublin City (24), Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown (10), Fingal (17), Galway City (6), Galway County (20), Kerry (21), Kildare (25), Kilkenny (21), Laoighis (15), Leitrim (21), Limerick City (0), Limerick County (11), Longford (19), Louth (17), Mayo (21), Meath (19), Monaghan (18), Offaly (6), Roscommon (35), Sligo (24), South Dublin (7), Tipperary North (16), Tipperary South (17), Waterford City (6), Waterford County (9), Westmeath (18), Wexford (24), Wicklow (11).

fuzzy dunlop

JaCrispy wrote: »

Wexford and Kilkenny have more

maynoothuniversity.ie/research/people-place-and-environment/spatial-analysis/projects/ghost-estates-ireland

Carlow (15), Cavan (21), Clare (9), Cork City (6), County Cork (90), Donegal (22), Dublin City (24), Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown (10), Fingal (17), Galway City (6), Galway County (20), Kerry (21), Kildare (25), Kilkenny (21), Laoighis (15), Leitrim (21), Limerick City (0), Limerick County (11), Longford (19), Louth (17), Mayo (21), Meath (19), Monaghan (18), Offaly (6), Roscommon (35), Sligo (24), South Dublin (7), Tipperary North (16), Tipperary South (17), Waterford City (6), Waterford County (9), Westmeath (18), Wexford (24), Wicklow (11).

Interesting! These are the raw numbers. The figures I posted were per capita...

imacman

The who is better Waterford or Carlow argument contributes very little to this debate.Its a more complex issue

invara wrote: »

This is not a debate about who gets the hot seat. This is a chance go get something big for the people of the south-east, or be fobbed off for another generation. If the politicians do not put enough resources and powers on the table both institutions should reject it. Anything less will produce a dynamic of a winner or a loser (one institution eating another's budget) and neither institutions should allow such a distasteful outcome to emerge even if they think they might be the ultimate winner.

I really think this is a great point on how this should move forward.I think there was a feeling from the politicians that the merger could go ahead without any investment and actually might save them money . That is a very shortsighted approach and is doomed to failure.
Latest leak on the kelly report , no movement on the merger , deadlock remains
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/deadlock-in-merger-plans-for-education-institutes-343427.html

fuzzy dunlop

imacman wrote: »

The who is better Waterford or Carlow argument contributes very little to this debate.Its a more complex issue




I really think this is a great point on how this should move forward.I think there was a feeling from the politicians that the merger could go ahead without any investment and actually might save them money . That is a very shortsighted approach and is doomed to failure.
Latest leak on the kelly report , no movement on the merger , deadlock remains
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/deadlock-in-merger-plans-for-education-institutes-343427.html

The merger is a political tool. Nothing else.The whole criteria is unique to this type of "University". It would be interesting to see to see if the the actual Universities would qualify to the criteria specified because it seems the criteria is "made up" to ensure "certain" institutes qualify.

O Riain

imacman wrote: »

The who is better Waterford or Carlow argument contributes very little to this debate.Its a more complex issue




I really think this is a great point on how this should move forward.I think there was a feeling from the politicians that the merger could go ahead without any investment and actually might save them money . That is a very shortsighted approach and is doomed to failure.
Latest leak on the kelly report , no movement on the merger , deadlock remains
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/deadlock-in-merger-plans-for-education-institutes-343427.html

So looks like Dublin will get another University while the whole country, the South East in particular, loses out.

fuzzy dunlop

O Riain wrote: »

So looks like Dublin will get another University while the whole country, the South East in particular, loses out.

From the article it also says the bill has not been introduced. Therefore the insistence that a merger must be part of the deal is still only a proposal. This is not going anywhere before an election.

O Riain

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

From the article it also says the bill has not been introduced. Therefore the insistence that a merger must be part of the deal is still only a proposal. This is not going anywhere before an election.

Or anywhere after an election it seems. It's so frustrating for the people of the South East I can only imagine how frustrating it is for the people who have been campaigning for this for god knows how long.

JaCrispy

To be honest WIT shouldn't be content with just a Technological University.
Isn't a TU basically going to be a rebranded IoT? Much the same as the RTC -> IoT fallacy?

fuzzy dunlop

JaCrispy wrote: »

To be honest WIT shouldn't be content with just a Technological University.
Isn't a TU basically going to be a rebranded IoT? Much the same as the RTC -> IoT fallacy?

Agree wholeheartedly.

Wanderer78

O Riain wrote: »

Or anywhere after an election it seems. It's so frustrating for the people of the South East I can only imagine how frustrating it is for the people who have been campaigning for this for god knows how long.

ah been campaigning 20 years or so. we can wait longer

fuzzy dunlop

O Riain wrote: »

Or anywhere after an election it seems. It's so frustrating for the people of the South East I can only imagine how frustrating it is for the people who have been campaigning for this for god knows how long.

It will be interesting the next election campaign. There will be absolutely no room for maneuver on this issue for FG/Labour. This falls well short of what was promised before the last election. And considering what Hogan/Reilly did to the Hospital group any "merged" institute will be seen as a method to do the same to WIT which would/is the truth. Think about this for a second. Do you think the government will provide extra funding to create a satellite campus in Kilkenny? More likely hive off some department from WIT and relocate it there. My guess is humanities which would be an utter disaster.

mountcisco

Dont they have a site in Kilkenny for a cultural quarter? Perfect for 3rd level campus. If after the election John McGuinness is FF leader or second-in-command he would be a powerful force in a FG/FF coalition and will look to exploit the delay I'm the TU situation. Don't forget he is TD for Carlow as well as Kk.

fuzzy dunlop

mountcisco wrote: »

Dont they have a site in Kilkenny for a cultural quarter? Perfect for 3rd level campus. If after the election John McGuinness is FF leader or second-in-command he would be a powerful force in a FG/FF coalition and will look to exploit the delay I'm the TU situation. Don't forget he is TD for Carlow as well as Kk.

I don't think John Mc Guinness will be leader of FF.I have no doubt he thinks he could/should but I don't see it happening.I think he would be a voter turn off outside of Carlow/KK. Either way I don't see how this is desirable from the point of view of WIT(Maybe this is your point). You could just as easily say the North Quays is a perfect site, Or the Mount Sion Monastery/ Little Sisters on College St.

O Riain

Kelly Report

http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/Engagement-and-Consultation-Process-on-a-Technological-University-for-the-South-East.pdf

JaCrispy

That really doesn't paint WIT in a very good light

More specifically, the formal opening position of WIT towards this engagement process was initially hostile

a widely-held view in WIT that they are already ‘at university level’” and a belief “ that previous commitments... had not been honoured

In Waterford, there is a widely-felt strong sense of entitlement to a university in the city, which it was argued would also serve the needs of the wider region.

It is based on arguments about equal treatment with other comparable cities, impact on economic and social development, need to compensate for re-location elsewhere of other administrative functions and offices, the business case already made by WIT and overall, an ambition that has deep roots culturally and over a long time span.

Stakeholders from other parts of the region are quite clear that a Waterford-only solution would not meet their needs or expectations and that they wish to see a more distributed institution with direct links to all parts of the region.

The report reflects the limitations of the process undertaken. Given the position taken by WIT, it did not prove possible to have any round-table engagement involving both Institutes as part of this process. Neither has it been possible to produce a validated set of aggregate data addressing TU Metrics, combined across both institutes.

Jamie2k9

I hope WIT remain firm and don't open talks with IT Carlow again.