Waterford University discussion

JaCrispy

ec18 wrote: »

no need to bash the kelly report like that

Yes you are right. Dr Van Winkle single paragraph that uses no references or studies to back up his OPINION and who may never have even visited either college should carry more credence than Kelly's report. Jaysus Christ.

fuzzy dunlop

JaCrispy wrote: »

Nice work Imacman - ITcarlow fully and categorically put back in their box. :D:D:D

That's it. Just hand over Uni status to WIT. :D:D:D

Anyway just because some dude with numerous controversies attached to his name has some unfounded and unsubstantiated OPINION means absolutely nothing.

I'd expect the absolute bile from you previous post to come from fuzzy, not you imacman. I'm disappointed in you.

Good Man Peter, Making a fool of yourself once again. "Some Dude with numerous controversies" is a straw man arguement like your WIT "fiancial discrepancies."
Why don't you just discuss it over on the "Carlow thread" where someone who deletes posts such as yourself to avoid others quoting them or changing their username
to hide the humongous tit they have made of themeselves? Oh yeah that's right the Carlow thread tends to die after a few posts from people like yourself because it is an insignificant issue in Carlow.
Another academic adds his name to the numerous academics in Ireland that say the merger is a bad idea.
The only place in the world probably where a merger is a requirement to be a University is Ireland. Thought up by gombeen scum who are constitutionally incapable of leaving gombeen politics behind.The merger criteria is a con that fiidles the books to allow Carlow apply for "merged Uni"
They never had it in them to apply for themselves. They were always following Waterford in that regard. Any "objective analysis" of the IT's has always shown Waterford ahead. Objective as not some "paid for" report that tries to force the issue through. The gombeen scum do what they do best. Pilfer of others and then assasinate peoples characters when they tell what they don't want to hear.

imacman

More independant comment on the TU situation in the times today. A very resonable and accurate commentry

Can I hear some arguments on why points like these aren't true or don't reflect the situation

"The risks of proceeding are not well-covered in the report. There is a brief mention of the need for further resources, and more detail on the importance of achieving a common vision. It is proposed to finish in three years or less, which I believe to be unrealistic. The Dublin technological university process, which Kelly leads, and which has full support from all the ITs involved, has taken longer than this already."


"I see further major risks in proceeding. First, neither IT is ready. They dislike each other, and do not trust each other. Much work is needed to bring the two organisations on board, and it may not be possible to do so. It is regrettable this has happened, but it would be worse to pretend it has not, or that it does not matter."

"The price of moving ahead will be high. The direct costs of the merger will be, I think, a minimum of €4 million. There is also a big opportunity cost. Neither IT will have management time to develop themselves during the merger. They may not have the time, energy and resources to manage themselves properly.
There is a real risk of the merger dragging on for several years, with acrimony, suspicion and misery, and ultimately failing. This would do serious damage to the reputation of both ITs and the wider sector.

More importantly, it might lead to a real decline in the quality of teaching, business engagement, and research in the southeast, a decline which could take many years to reverse."



http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/warning-over-merger-plan-for-waterford-it-and-it-carlow-in-south-east-1.2307832

imacman

I posted the comment below on the carlow thread this morning in the light of the irish times piece. Any comments from a waterford point of view ( and spare me the Waterford is bigger , better , etc arguments )

I want to ask the people of ITCarlow a question ,Have you taken the risks of the TU merger into account. I think the development of ITcarlow has been brillantly done over the last number of years and it is probably the most progressive and well run ITs in the country especially in the lifelong learing area.In this whole TU clamour and political hyperbole have you considered the damage the TU the whole process could do to both organisations and how Carlows growth could be stunted.
As the opinion piece says

"The price of moving ahead will be high. The direct costs of the merger will be, I think, a minimum of €4 million. There is also a big opportunity cost. Neither IT will have management time to develop themselves during the merger. They may not have the time, energy and resources to manage themselves properly."

Whether you are a merger cheerleader or not you have to acknowledge the TU process will suck peoples time and resources away from the day to day work of developing the institute and take managements eye off the ball on the short term growth. Even in something like marketing how do we communicate to the leaving cert student we are merging but we are not a TU yet and have no doubt the uncertainty will put people off and hurt the numbers in both colleges during this process which will have no doubt drag on for years ( as the commentary say the TU4dublin merger has taken longer than three years and the involves 3 institutes enthusiastic and fully supportive of the merger)
And at the end of the day there is no guarantee that this merger will be approved for TU status although that has never been addressed in any of the commentary around the Kelly report or in the kelly report.
So the question is , is this TU process worth the risk.

BBM77

“There is a real risk of the merger dragging on for several years, with acrimony, suspicion and misery, and ultimately failing. This would do serious damage to the reputation of both ITs and the wider sector. More importantly, it might lead to a real decline in the quality of teaching, business engagement, and research in the southeast, a decline which could take many years to reverse.”

Yet another independent voice saying this will most likely be a disaster for the south-east. :mad:

O Riain

BBM77 wrote: »

“There is a real risk of the merger dragging on for several years, with acrimony, suspicion and misery, and ultimately failing. This would do serious damage to the reputation of both ITs and the wider sector. More importantly, it might lead to a real decline in the quality of teaching, business engagement, and research in the southeast, a decline which could take many years to reverse.”

Yet another independent voice saying this will most likely be a disaster for the south-east. :mad:

The mid-west region with 339,591 people in it will have 1 University, 2 Institutes of Technology and 1 large teacher training college. After the merger the South East, with a population of 468,838 will have 1 Technological University.

How is that fair and balanced.

imacman

O Riain wrote: »

The mid-west region with 339,591 people in it will have 1 University, 2 Institutes of Technology and 1 large teacher training college. After the merger the South East, with a population of 468,838 will have 1 Technological University.

How is that fair and balanced.

These kinda whataboutery arguments annoy and are one of the reasons we are in this mess. Nobody is saying that the southeast doesnt need a university , the question is how that comes about and whether the TU shotgun wedding road is the best way to go about it.

fricatus

imacman wrote: »

These kinda whataboutery arguments annoy and are one of the reasons we are in this mess.

What? Are we not supposed to point it out when we get less than our fair share of public resources compared to other parts of the country?

JaCrispy

imacman wrote: »

So the question is , is this TU process worth the risk.

I think bottom line is that it has to be worth the risk. I think to progress to a proper University a TU is going to be the only option. I cannot see a scenario when an IOT could jump to full University status especially if other TU's exist.

As I mentioned before it's neither in WIT nor ITCs bests interest to be in the third tier of third level institutions.

ec18

JaCrispy wrote: »

I think bottom line is that it has to be worth the risk. I think to progress to a proper University a TU is going to be the only option. I cannot see a scenario when an IOT could jump to full University status especially if other TU's exist.

As I mentioned before it's neither in WIT nor ITCs bests interest to be in the third tier of third level institutions.

There is no jump to full university from a TU....

7upfree

JaCrispy wrote: »

I think bottom line is that it has to be worth the risk. I think to progress to a proper University a TU is going to be the only option.

Absolutely not. Under any circumstances. A halfway house of the worst kind, created by someone with a hatred of Waterford, running his own agenda. Steer well, well clear of this abomination at all costs.

fuzzy dunlop

JaCrispy wrote: »

I think bottom line is that it has to be worth the risk. I think to progress to a proper University a TU is going to be the only option. I cannot see a scenario when an IOT could jump to full University status especially if other TU's exist.

As I mentioned before it's neither in WIT nor ITCs bests interest to be in the third tier of third level institutions.

But it won't be in the third tier of education. The merger is just a re-brand at best of the current status quo. With the animosity between Carlow and Waterford being institutionalized.In not one instance has the series of mergers gone to plan. They have been utterly exposed for what they are an instrument to allow political interests in the South East deliver pork to their constituents. The losers here will be whatever institutions have to be ransacked to create a new campus in Kilkenny. Because if you think there will be extra funding allocated for this then you are deluded. It is copper fastening the parochial thinking that everything has to be spread across the region equally and to hell with any consequences. There is no improvement here on a regional level.

fuzzy dunlop

imacman wrote: »

These kinda whataboutery arguments annoy and are one of the reasons we are in this mess. Nobody is saying that the southeast doesnt need a university , the question is how that comes about and whether the TU shotgun wedding road is the best way to go about it.

But it clearly isn't. This whole debacle was thrown together by politicians with the aim of feathering the nest of their own constituencies.Delivery of education be damned! We are essentially breaking up at least one major institute to provide a campus in every town under the banner of a single institute.

JaCrispy

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

The merger is just a re-brand at best of the current status quo.

I somewhat agree. And certainly if all IOTs were being given TU status. However there will be a two tier system. Students will prefer courses in Universities as they are more prestigious. A fact that I don't like admitting but a fact nonetheless.
TUs will be more recognised nationally and internationally - Erasmus students will be more familiar with the TU structure than IOTs.

Even something as simple as having "University" in their title will be detrimental to all remaining IOTs.

Of course IOTs will still be performing great work like they always have but if the DIT TU and Cork/Tralee TU come to fruition - even regardless of funding - it is bad news for Waterford, Carlow and others.

CatFromHue

I thought the addition of "university" to the name was to help get more foreign students.

I think even trinity was thinking of a name change recently for this reason!

fuzzy dunlop

JaCrispy wrote: »

I somewhat agree. And certainly if all IOTs were being given TU status. However there will be a two tier system. Students will prefer courses in Universities as they are more prestigious. A fact that I don't like admitting but a fact nonetheless.
TUs will be more recognised nationally and internationally - Erasmus students will be more familiar with the TU structure than IOTs.

Even something as simple as having "University" in their title will be detrimental to all remaining IOTs.

Of course IOTs will still be performing great work like they always have but if the DIT TU and Cork/Tralee TU come to fruition - even regardless of funding - it is bad news for Waterford, Carlow and others.

I doubt that at all. If the status of a "University" was dependent on a name change the issue would have been settled years ago.Strike of a pen and a brass plate and bobs your Uncle.In fact it would be settled now as the "IT" label resonates with MIT probably one of the best known and prestigious colleges in the world. The objective analysis of an institutes performance will be the determining factor. And if students are silly enough to fall for it then so be it. Employers will see through and this will filter back down to students perceptions. This in fact would be preferable for WIT. Let Carlow merge with someone else if they can persuade someone else to have them and WIT stay as it is.

Then WIT will be the only IT in the country which is what was essentially supposed to be the situation in the first place until all the "us too" parochialism interfered.

fuzzy dunlop

Report from March and AIT's conclusions

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/institutes-of-technology-warn-against-three-tier-system-1.2132281

The rat in the kitchen here is that the whole shambles is created to force Carlow and WIT to merge.With no additional funding how is the new campus in Kilkenny going to be funded? Remember the hospital network anyone?

fiachr_a

Convert that ghost shopping centre in Ferrybank into a new college and call it the University of Waterford and Kilkenny.

Wanderer78

fiachr_a wrote: »

Convert that ghost shopping centre in Ferrybank into a new college and call it the University of Waterford and Kilkenny.

not a bad use for the building at all

imacman

Really great analysis from mary roche who was an insider in the whole TU process.Again confirms that the whole thing is political football.
http://cllrmaryroche.blogspot.ie/2015/08/the-kelly-report-reviewed-technological.html?spref=tw

Some good points . please read the rest

On to Mr Kelly’s conclusion that the two colleges should now re-enter talks (about talks) and his claim that the entire issue could be put to bed in three years. I have to ask the question: on what is this conclusion based? There is absolutely no data contained in the report to back up this assertion. None. (This, despite the fact that the DIT application which Mr Kelly Chairs has already taken longer than this – even with all the players ‘on board’!?)

There is a continuous lamentation by Mr Kelly throughout his report that no aggregate data was available. However I must ask – was the data not available separately from each college for him to aggregate or indeed from the Higher Education Authority itself who must surely have it at the push of a Management ICT systems button?

The Taylor Report which was withdrawn (or suppressed depending on your point of view) was compiling that data and coming to some not very comforting conclusions for the government and their merger plans. So let us see and agree the data to back up Mr Kelly’s claim. Otherwise it cannot be given any credibility. Mr Kelly seems not to understand the standard of research staff and research programmes required in a truly internationally competitive university as opposed to some ‘me-too’ university. This is clear by his treatment of research activity in his report.

Another glaring and very questionable omission from the report is that it fails to set the merger proposal in an international context. It references no views, no evidence based rationale, no international research or best practice on higher education mergers. If that information is available surely it should have been included? If not, that perhaps, that tells its own tale.

invara

....... and then it all goes quiet...... Nothin' happening on the university front... this poxy do-nothing government.... with a minister for education for limerick doing the seven universities bidding.....

......... Next month another lot of our leaving cert young clear out of the south east..... most never to be seen again..... a huge loss to our economy, communities and families.

kingsofoffaly

invara wrote: »

....... and then it all goes quiet...... Nothin' happening on the university front... this poxy do-nothing government.... with a minister for education for limerick doing the seven universities bidding.....

......... Next month another lot of our leaving cert young clear out of the south east..... most never to be seen again..... a huge loss to our economy, communities and families.

What about all the ones that do come to the south east

ec18

kingsofoffaly wrote: »

What about all the ones that do come to the south east

and what about the ones that might like to live somewhere else due to choice :cool:?

imacman

invara wrote: »

....... and then it all goes quiet...... Nothin' happening on the university front... this poxy do-nothing government.... with a minister for education for limerick doing the seven universities bidding.....

......... Next month another lot of our leaving cert young clear out of the south east..... most never to be seen again..... a huge loss to our economy, communities and families.

Hey expect a phoney war on the whole TU issue ,WIT will want to wait till after the general election before any concrete moves are made. Expect to hear about focus groups and meetings about meetings over the the next nine months but no real movement.

invara

kingsofoffaly wrote: »

What about all the ones that do come to the south east

Those coming into the region are very welcome.

My point is really about the under-provision of college places and courses in the south east. The Mid-West or West regions are good comparisons- both have double the number of places; both have lower populations than the south east. This mapping work by AIRO in Maynooth shows the pull out of the region into UCC, Dublin Unis and UL- this is the real reason why the FG and Labour manifesto promises fizzled out one in power.

https://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/university-and-iot-catchments-and-school-feeders/

kingsofoffaly

invara wrote: »

Those coming into the region are very welcome.

My point is really about the under-provision of college places and courses in the south east. The Mid-West or West regions are good comparisons- both have double the number of places; both have lower populations than the south east. This mapping work by AIRO in Maynooth shows the pull out of the region into UCC, Dublin Unis and UL- this is the real reason why the FG and Labour manifesto promises fizzled out one in power.

https://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/university-and-iot-catchments-and-school-feeders/

as a student myself, I think this because yes they are Unis and also the fact it involes the courses in it.

invara

Your right on both counts..... this is my rough and ready analysis of who the HEA stats suggests....

...... I reckon about 60% leave to get a course they cannot get here (primary school teaching, medicine, vet, dentistry, archaeology, biological science, zoology, economics... etc. etc).

......About 15-20% take a course they perceive to be more prestigious (family typically fund the cost of them moving to Dublin or Cork; about 5-10k extra a year) in a university. Whilst I would argue the teaching is the same in WIT as elsewhere, the facilities are usually better in the universities- this is because the government gives them more money. So for example trinity is building a business school it will cost €70 million; WIT which has the same number of students in its business school currently has its business building on hold- it was due to cost €14 million.

.... About 20-25% are students that can commute in either direction, and WIT tends to get its fair share of these...

fiachr_a

No Irish university would offer a degree in Internet of Things.

plasticman3327

fiachr_a wrote: »

No Irish university would offer a degree in Internet of Things.

They would. They would just call it something more sensible like "Electronic Computer Engineering"

invara

fiachr_a wrote: »

No Irish university would offer a degree in Internet of Things.

http://www.ucd.ie/bdic/prospectivestudents/degreescourses/undergraduatecourses/betheinternetofthingsiotengineering/

A joint UCD-Beijing University of Technology degree.