Waterford University discussion

dayshah

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

This idea of a multi-university campus is great if it effectively means a merger with Carlow and Waterford and the upgrade of the merged institution to a University. However it doesn't mean this. It means spreading any would be new institution across several campus in Waterford, Carlow, Wexford and Kilkenny for the benefit of messrs Hogan and Howlin.

If we merge with Carlow, will people not think that WIT has been brought down to their level, rather than them brought up. Also, which courses should stop being provided in Waterford? Business? Computers? Engineering? Because there already is course overlap between the two, and a merged institution will have to take advantage of economies of scale but concentrating courses in either of the two institutions.

Psychedelic

We might as well forget about a university in Waterford, it's never going to happen. All 3 main parties have fed us lies and empty promises that they are in favour of a university in the South East, but when it comes to their chance at making a decision they are too afraid or just simply don't want Waterford to have a university.

Gilmore is now hiding behind the excuse of "we have to set the criteria for a technological university first" i.e. more reports, consultations. I know they have to set the criteria but the draft criteria are in place since June, it should now just be a matter of quickly finalising these, but the impression I get from Gilmore's comments is that this process will take a long time. What will probably happen is a year from now the criteria will be published, WIT will fall short on some, and the Government will have their excuse to delay the university upgrade yet again.

Sully

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Well Sully there are many people who do believe the University is the issue.What is it that Deasy said that is incorrect?

These are the facts of the present situation.

The government has not agreed to fast track the upgrade or to even facilitate it at all.

We are in the same position as we were prior to the election.

Deasy is bang on the money and is doing his duty by letting us know.

I would trust Deasy on this a lot more than the other two light weights.

This idea of a multi-university campus is great if it effectively means a merger with Carlow and Waterford and the upgrade of the merged institution to a University. However it doesn't mean this. It means spreading any would be new institution across several campus in Waterford, Carlow, Wexford and Kilkenny for the benefit of messrs Hogan and Howlin.

Everytime we hear anything from Deasy over the years, its mostly moaning or giving out about the party and now his government. He is still a backbench TD after all these years and there seems to be no working together here in Waterford among his fellow elected members for the good of Waterford. Waterfords only voice came from Fianna Fail, when we should have had a FG Minister in the past and the present, but alas, we don't and Deasy probably wont ever be.

I didn't hear the interview on radio, so I cant say for certain what views were expressed but it just seems to be a bit of jumping on the negative bandwagon to get some publicity. Eveytime I see or hear his name, its never good and just whining.

As far back as I can remember, WIT were talking about a multi-campus spread across the South East. Not just for Waterford, but for the South East as a whole. There has always been a case for and against University for Waterford and everybody else. The government are making a commitment to establishing a new type of University, which might just work in our favour. They have agreed, without pressure, to accelerate the study done into this (it would be rash to just say "Arah, give em the Uni badge and let it work itself out" rather than actually coming with a structure for it) and I for one will be lobbying TDs and Ministers to stop dawdling and get on with it.

merlante

Psychedelic wrote: »

We might as well forget about a university in Waterford, it's never going to happen. All 3 main parties have fed us lies and empty promises that they are in favour of a university in the South East, but when it comes to their chance at making a decision they are too afraid or just simply don't want Waterford to have a university.

Gilmore is now hiding behind the excuse of "we have to set the criteria for a technological university first" i.e. more reports, consultations. I know they have to set the criteria but the draft criteria are in place since June, it should now just be a matter of quickly finalising these, but the impression I get from Gilmore's comments is that this process will take a long time. What will probably happen is a year from now the criteria will be published, WIT will fall short on some, and the Government will have their excuse to delay the university upgrade yet again.

Just shake our fists bitterly at the sky? The usual Waterford response to every setback.

Psychedelic

merlante wrote: »

Just shake our fists bitterly at the sky? The usual Waterford response to every setback.

I'm not saying we should just get angry and give up, I'm just saying the game is up now. I have been optimistic for every step of the process to try get the university but I am now just being realistic. Hand on heart, do you honestly believe now that the university, technological or otherwise, will ever happen?

See the bits below in bold, another bloody review? A review to see if a TU could be created? Sure why couldn't a TU be set up?

Minister Richard Bruton says an independent expert has been appointed to examine the process of moving towards a university for the SouthEast. He was speaking to public representatives following his meeting in Talk Talk this morning. There were mixed messages coming from the Government on the issue last week after reports suggested that university status for the South East was to be fast-tracked. However, the Department of Education has clarified that it has not yet decided to create a university in the region and was instead looking to speed-up a review into whether new Technological Universities could be created.

Sinn Fein Senator David Cullinane was unhappy with the lack of commitment from Minister Bruton, who says many hurdles stand in the way of an upgrade of WIT. Senator Cullinane says that, pre-election, the coalition parties recognised the need for a university in the region. Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore says the draft criteria for establishing such a university has been decided upon, but that the review will take time.

http://www.wlrfm.com/news-and-sport/waterford-news/128664.html

EMSCHAP

Minister Bruton speaks about a the appointment of another expert to look into the criteria for a Technological university. We already have an expert report on a university in Waterford which was broadly in favour. A multi campus TU in the South East is just another attempt to fob us off. Do not forget that all the running for a university here has been done in Waterford ALONE with little assistance from the other counties. Now Ministers Howlin and Hogan are showing interest so that they can claim to be bringing a university to their towns.

fuzzy dunlop

Sully wrote: »

Everytime we hear anything from Deasy over the years, its mostly moaning or giving out about the party and now his government. He is still a backbench TD after all these years and there seems to be no working together here in Waterford among his fellow elected members for the good of Waterford. Waterfords only voice came from Fianna Fail, when we should have had a FG Minister in the past and the present, but alas, we don't and Deasy probably wont ever be. .

Sully Deasy is Waterford Fine Gael!.Paudie Coffey's addition to the benches is by virtue of the political backlash against the previous government it is absolutely nothing to do with his ability or performance. If the second Fine Gael seat becomes threatened which it will then it will inevitably be Coffey that will be in danger here. There is twenty to thirty seats in Fine Gael and Labour that are there because the voters had nowhere elese to go and Coffey is one of these.When politics normalises in this country or if another political force comes into Irish politics in the next decade FG will still need Deasy as the primary vote getter. As much as Enda Kenny and FG nationally wish to see Coffey Eclipse Deasy the fact is Coffey is still in Deasys shadow.

Sully wrote: »

I didn't hear the interview on radio, so I cant say for certain what views were expressed but it just seems to be a bit of jumping on the negative bandwagon to get some publicity. Eveytime I see or hear his name, its never good and just whining.
.

The fact is we need to kmow what the government is thinking.The issue is whether Deasy called it accurately or not. Deasy can be a moaner or a whiner or a Screamer,I don't give a sh!t.All I am interested in is the accuracy of what he says and the indications are that he is bang on the money.At least Deasy has some backbone which is a lot more that can be said for the other two fools.

Sully wrote: »

As far back as I can remember, WIT were talking about a multi-campus spread across the South East. Not just for Waterford, but for the South East as a whole. There has always been a case for and against University for Waterford and everybody else. The government are making a commitment to establishing a new type of University, which might just work in our favour. They have agreed, without pressure, to accelerate the study done into this (it would be rash to just say "Arah, give em the Uni badge and let it work itself out" rather than actually coming with a structure for it) and I for one will be lobbying TDs and Ministers to stop dawdling and get on with it.

Well as far back as I can remember the Multi Campus proposal has only surfaced in the last three or four years at the most.In that period we have gone from a Univesity to a Technological Univesity to a Multi-Campus Technological University. Phrases like "the government making a commitment" are politico speak to appease the peasants, nothing more.There has been enough reports and legislation. The legislative tools are already there and have been for years. The government needs to make an announcement not a "commitment". Nobody is just asking for a badge. We are looking for a plan not another report.

merlante

Psychedelic wrote: »

I'm not saying we should just get angry and give up, I'm just saying the game is up now. I have been optimistic for every step of the process to try get the university but I am now just being realistic. Hand on heart, do you honestly believe now that the university, technological or otherwise, will ever happen?

See the bits below in bold, another bloody review? A review to see if a TU could be created? Sure why couldn't a TU be set up?


http://www.wlrfm.com/news-and-sport/waterford-news/128664.html

I think a technological university of some kind for the south east will more than likely be set up, probably alongside another one based on DIT in Dublin, and possibly one in Cork. But it won't be as easy as that.

Maybe 6 years ago the situation was nearly hopeless. (We could have all given up then with good conscience.) An OECD report from 2002 gave a big fat 'no' and there was absolutely no appetite for it whatsoever. That was it. This changed around 2005, or before, when three things happened: 1) the Chamber of Commerce and the council started agitating strongly again and they commissioned a report (the Goodbody report), which highlighted the benefits a university would bring to the south east; 2) WIT, with Kieran Byrne on board, was very bullishly pro-university, and attempted to take a test case against the universities act which provided, in principle, for admissions into the university sector; and 3) Cullen in cabinet commissioned the Port report to investigate the case for a university for the south east. A few years later, when the momentum reached a certain point, a number of individuals restarted a campaign for a university: FUSE, etc.

This was a high point, but ultimately it was all packaged up and bundled, with everything else, into considerations for the Hunt report. Then the recession came and that was the end of that for a while. But gains had been made. The case had been made very strongly and awareness had increased dramatically. The Hunt report pretty much had to "do something" with WIT. What that something was, was anyone's guess.

The Hunt report was released and made mention of technological universities. For the first time, this opened the door to WIT to apply for something that they had a reasonable chance of getting, because, essentially, it was for the likes of DIT and WIT that this new type of university was being proposed. Although, on the whole, the Hunt report was disappointing for Waterford, but not so disappointing that it hadn't given Waterford and the south east a way to progress.

The next event was the inclusion of the line about investigating the establishment of a technical university for the south east in the FG programme for government, and their subsequent election. This was the first time a major party, who were definitely going to be elected, had publicly stated, in a document addressed to the nation, that it was serious about a university in the south east -- although yes, there was wiggle room in there for them. They also used the terminology of the Hunt report (wrongly, but still) in referring to a technical university. This effectively united academic recommendations with a certain amount of political will in a process that pretty much has to be continued and can't really recommend nothing for WIT at the end of the day.

So my honest opinion is that if Waterford and the south east keeps up the pressure, fight all the battles and overcome all the setbacks, WIT will be upgraded/merged to become a technological university. Once separated from the other IoTs, anything is possible in the future. I believe that if a university in Waterford is given half a chance, i.e. even 60% of the funding and support the other universities get, it will take off. It will take off because the south east is a large region and there is be no competition nearby.

Looking at Galway and Limerick for comparison, student numbers could literally double in 10 years. There is a lot at stake, for us and for them, for that reason.

So in this relative high point in "the struggle" I wouldn't be getting too down hearted. Imagine where the whole thing stood in 1997 when the Waterford University Action Group fought and won an upgrade to institute of technology status only for the lot of them to be upgraded a few months later? Pretty sickening stuff. But because it happened then, it's less likely to happen again. It would not be stood for, and I don't think the powers that be want it either. Anyway, enough of the history (although there's a lot more than that to be told).

mystique150

The idea of another university sounds great but what about the students who may not have the ability or the means to attend a university? Where do they go? Fas? As it stands fees for an IT are about half that when compared to a university. Also, some students cope better in an IT environment where the lessons are more structured than a university and lecture type approach. University teaching is a lot more independent than what you currently see in an IT, where class sizes smaller and more intimate. Many of the lecturers you currently come across in ITs are not actively involved in research - this is a must for a university. Some of them don't have PhDs either, can we just drop those? I don't think so - we gave many (most) of them full time permanent jobs for life! What happens if WIT becomes a university - we carry along all those lecturers who are not qualified to teach at university level and ultimately end up with a poor university. I'd be in much more favour of an excellent IT than a poor or mediocre university!

merlante

mystique150 wrote: »

The idea of another university sounds great but what about the students who may not have the ability or the means to attend a university? Where do they go? Fas? As it stands fees for an IT are about half that when compared to a university. Also, some students cope better in an IT environment where the lessons are more structured than a university and lecture type approach. University teaching is a lot more independent than what you currently see in an IT, where class sizes smaller and more intimate. Many of the lecturers you currently come across in ITs are not actively involved in research - this is a must for a university. Some of them don't have PhDs either, can we just drop those? I don't think so - we gave many (most) of them full time permanent jobs for life! What happens if WIT becomes a university - we carry along all those lecturers who are not qualified to teach at university level and ultimately end up with a poor university. I'd be in much more favour of an excellent IT than a poor or mediocre university!.

The universities and the IoTs are teaching degrees to largely the same standard, so if you can do a degree in an IoT, you can do it in a university. Also, certs and ordinary degrees will have to still be offered by technological universities, so they would remain. That's already in the draft HEA criteria. This also takes care of lecturers who aren't trained to a high enough level to teach degrees. Actually, though, quite a high percentage of WIT staff have PhDs these days, so it wouldn't be a problem. Some universities, such as NUIM, could be said to very friendly, with small class sizes in many cases, so I wouldn't say there is as much of a difference between university and IoT environments as you imply. I personally wouldn't notice the difference, except maybe with large universities.

So no real grounds for fear, uncertainty and doubt.

mystique150

merlante wrote: »

The universities and the IoTs are teaching degrees to largely the same standard, so if you can do a degree in an IoT, you can do it in a university. Also, certs and ordinary degrees will have to still be offered by technological universities, so they would remain. That's already in the draft HEA criteria. This also takes care of lecturers who aren't trained to a high enough level to teach degrees. Actually, though, quite a high percentage of WIT staff have PhDs these days, so it wouldn't be a problem. Some universities, such as NUIM, could be said to very friendly, with small class sizes in many cases, so I wouldn't say there is as much of a difference between university and IoT environments as you imply. I personally wouldn't notice the difference, except maybe with large universities.

So no real grounds for fear, uncertainty and doubt.

But many of those lecturers are not required to write grants and apply for research funding so are not actively involved in research. Will they suddenly all start to do so once they are suddenly employed in a university? I doubt it. Also - the fees issue is a big problem for most students, which you haven't addressed. From your argument it seems like you intend to keep everything about the college the same (offering diplomas and ordinary degrees) except upgrade the title. I just don't see the benefit nor the necessity? Am I missing something?

fricatus

I heard Richard Bruton waffling about this yesterday on RTÉ, and he called the place "Waterford Institute of Educati- ...Technology".

I know anyone can have a slip of the tongue, but it just goes to show that those Belvo and UCD boys are much more likely to have the Institute of Education on their minds than an Institute of Technology.

Reminds me of when Dubs absent-mindedly ask "where is it you're from again? Wexford?"

We're not even on their radar lads...

Master and commander

Sully wrote: »

As far back as I can remember, WIT were talking about a multi-campus spread across the South East. .

Most other places laid out like that are the lower order, third rate kind of places. IT carlow and Tipperary Institute spring to mind.
At the end of the day giving uni status to WIT amounts to nothing more than renaming the current institute. Same buildings, same courses, same lecturers, same everything (except maybe a different management/beauracracy structure) - just a different sign over the door. Whats more, the whole rebranding excercise will cost €€€€'s, which is not there.
Giving uni status will also devalue the prestige associated with the other universities - i can't imagine the graduates of the NUI being to happy with it. In any case, unless it becomes part of NUI, i.e the current trend is for a technical university, then its just pointless windowdressing, equivalent to when they renamed the RTC's as IT's. It didn't make a sh!t of a difference then and it wont do so now either. I should also add that unless its part of NUI its graduates will not be eligible to be electors for seanad elections so in effect it will not be a real university, just a sort of wannabe.
And to be doing it now is just pure reactionary stuff - they're not doing it because of WITs merits and quality, but just because Talktalk closed. They'd be doing it just for the sake of it to get votes for the lads next time round, which is silly.

Also on alighter note, can you imagine the slagging we'd get from the NUI crowd, calling us "NUI rejects" and failed Uni students and so forth.

And by the way, I am a WIT student,

Partizan

Psychedelic wrote: »

We might as well forget about a university in Waterford, it's never going to happen. All 3 main parties have fed us lies and empty promises that they are in favour of a university in the South East, but when it comes to their chance at making a decision they are too afraid or just simply don't want Waterford to have a university.

Gilmore is now hiding behind the excuse of "we have to set the criteria for a technological university first" i.e. more reports, consultations. I know they have to set the criteria but the draft criteria are in place since June, it should now just be a matter of quickly finalising these, but the impression I get from Gilmore's comments is that this process will take a long time. What will probably happen is a year from now the criteria will be published, WIT will fall short on some, and the Government will have their excuse to delay the university upgrade yet again.

We had a senior minister at the cabinet table who did SFA on this matter. There will never be a university in Waterford. Too many vested interests in our parochial political system.

invinciblePRSTV

Partizan wrote: »

We had a senior minister at the cabinet table who did SFA on this matter. There will never be a university in Waterford. Too many vested interests in our parochial political system.

LOL great post, you bemoan the 'parochial political system' on the one hand whilst you crib on the other about the minister which "we" had in cabinet not doing enough on this issue.

merlante

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

LOL great post, you bemoan the 'parochial political system' on the one hand whilst you crib on the other about the minister which "we" had in cabinet not doing enough on this issue.

Even though you've dedicated your life to trolling on Waterford university threads (a noble calling I'm sure), I'd actually go along with this sentiment.

Although, I guess people could complain that having suffered from parochial politics for decades, Waterford didn't really benefit (i.e. pull ahead of other places) from parochial politics when the opportunity was there.

As an eternal optimist, I'd like to think that rational arguments and national demographics will rule Irish politics from here on in...

invinciblePRSTV

merlante wrote: »

Even though you've dedicated your life to trolling on Waterford university threads (a noble calling I'm sure),

Now now Merlante play nice, I was very much the voice of reason more like. Thankfully even native deise on this thread appear to be in agreement with many of the points I've made in previous threads.

merlante wrote: »

I'd actually go along with this sentiment.

Although, I guess people could complain that having suffered from parochial politics for decades, Waterford didn't really benefit (i.e. pull ahead of other places) from parochial politics when the opportunity was there.

Pull ahead of what other places? what's the point you're trying to make here? throughout this and previous threads we've seen Galway and Limerick and their current and previous populations being cited as some kind of barometer as to Wa'furd's decline, the underlying assumption being that somehow Wa'furd deserves to be ''ahead'' of these places.

Why should that be? towns and cities grow large and then go into decline, sometimes they revitalise themselves sometimes they don't. It's a feature of urban development and I see no reason as to why Wa'furd is a special case in this regard, or how a Waterford University will be a silver bullet to cure this.

merlante wrote: »

As an eternal optimist, I'd like to think that rational arguments and national demographics will rule Irish politics from here on in...

I agree, hence why this technological uni. proposal is the most obvious solution. For my money I'd go further and merge all the IT's into a National tech. University.

merlante

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Pull ahead of what other places? what's the point you're trying to make here? throughout this and previous threads we've seen Galway and Limerick and their current and previous populations being cited as some kind of barometer as to Wa'furd's decline, the underlying assumption being that somehow Wa'furd deserves to be ''ahead'' of these places.

Why should that be? towns and cities grow large and then go into decline, sometimes they revitalise themselves sometimes they don't. It's a feature of urban development and I see no reason as to why Wa'furd is a special case in this regard, or how a Waterford University will be a silver bullet to cure this.

If this were medieval times my city would simply kick your city's ass. But in modern times, the growth and decline of provincial cities are largely a function of national strategy. The IDA for example have enormous power as Kingmakers... as do the government and other institutions. Nice try though.

invinciblePRSTV

merlante wrote: »

If this were medieval times my city would simply kick your city's ass. But in modern times, the growth and decline of provincial cities are largely a function of national strategy. The IDA for example have enormous power as Kingmakers... as do the government and other institutions. Nice try though.

So it comes back to again the default cliche argument - it's the gubbirmints fault for Wa'furds failings?

Nice side step to my question though. Again i ask why should your city be ''ahead'' of other Irish towns and cities, this is the argument you've forwarded so please elaborate for me on it.

mike65

Not my argument but it's not a case of pulling ahead, its now just a case of not falling ever further behind.

Bards

Can we stop using the term Wa'furd as it is very derogatory

abouttobebanned

In a perfect world we wouldn't shorten any word.

Bards

abouttobebanned wrote: »

In a perfect world we wouldn't shorten any word.

Waterford is a Proper Noun and should not be shortened

MitchKoobski

Bards wrote: »

Waterford is a Proper Noun and should not be shortened

Tis just a wurd shur.

Bards

MitchKoobski wrote: »

Tis just a wurd shur.

so is University

invinciblePRSTV

Bards wrote: »

so is University

So is nitpicking.

abouttobebanned

Boobs.

merlante

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

So it comes back to again the default cliche argument - it's the gubbirmints fault for Wa'furds failings?

Nice side step to my question though. Again i ask why should your city be ''ahead'' of other Irish towns and cities, this is the argument you've forwarded so please elaborate for me on it.

Trolley, trolley, troll, troll. Didn't you get booted off here before for this sort of thing?

dayshah

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Again i ask why should your city be ''ahead'' of other Irish towns and cities, this is the argument you've forwarded so please elaborate for me on it.

Because we have a unique form of bread roll, and that makes us special.


That plus being a gateway city, regional capital, having a high quality IT, blaa, blaa, blaa.

invinciblePRSTV

dayshah wrote: »

That plus being a gateway city, regional capital, having a high quality IT, blaa, blaa, blaa.

Not really outstanding points are they though in practice? it's quite clear that these platitudes mean very little in reality to the impartial observer. The NSS from which the gateway designation comes from has been thoroughly discredited, there are several IT's who can claim to be "high quality" and the regional capital claim means nothing.