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Waterford University discussion
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http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fine-gaels-university-pledge/
Fine Gael’s university pledge
By Tom Young. Published on Friday, March 14th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Fine Gael nationally has finally, officially, pledged to join in the fight for a university for Waterford. And its Education Spokesman Brian Hayes promised this week not to drop the cudgel until it is delivered.
While its’ local representatives have long been behind the campaign the party itself has been reluctant to commit itself. But that has now changed and amid fears that the government is going to refuse an upgrading of WIT when it responds to the Port Report, Mr. Hayes came to Waterford on Monday to confirm his support and that of his leader Enda Kenny.
He promised that Fine Gael would campaign vigorously on the issue in opposition and if unsuccessful would deliver on its commitment if returned to power at the next election. Meanwhile – again in the absence of their desired response from the current government – it would be made a prime issue in the local and European elections next year.
The hope among campaigners is that Fine Gael’s stance will help pressure the Coalition into saying yes.
Mr. Hayes said that although Waterford could not be dealt with in isolation in terms of education needs, it had a unique and special case for a university. “I’m calling on the government to respond positively to the Port Report and if it doesn’t I’m pledging to keep this matter on the agenda until there is delivery”, he told the local media.
He accused the government of neglecting Waterford and the region in terms of educational investment. “Having designated Waterford as a Gateway City it failed to follow up with education funding”, he said. “This is particularly stark when one considers that only 11.2 p.c. of adults in the south east have completed third level education to degree stage or higher, compared to 15.6 p.c. nationally and 21.3 p.c. in Dublin”.
Petition
Arguing that a university was vital for further economic development in the region, he said one of the first questions asked by prospective investors concerned the availability of top grade education. And while WIT had served its purpose outstandingly well, people from abroad who were thinking of coming here wanted university education for their children and those of their management personnel.
The Shadow Spokesman also wants DIT’s application for university status to be met. And in an overhaul of the higher education sector he also wants a review of the criteria required for university designation, a new “umbrella university” for the Institute of Technology sector and greater collaboration between Institutes of Technology and regional universities.
Present at the Waterford launch of the Fine Gael strategy were TDs John Deasy and Phil Hogan, Senators Maurice Cummins, Paudie Coffey and John Paul Phelan, Mayor Mary O’Halloran and her FG City Council colleagues Hilary Quinlan and Tom Cunningham.
The Mayor welcomed her party’s strategy and Senator Cummins drew attention to a petition with 3,000 signatures gathered by Waterford Young Fine Gael (of which his son John is chairman) at schools throughout the city and county.
Not all schools took part, however. Those which did are: De La Salle College, Our Lady of Mercy, St. Angela’s, Stella Maris, Tramore, Abbey Community College, Ferrybank, Blackwater CC and St. Augustine’s, Dungarvan.
Mary accuses Carlow
Meanwhile, Independent City Councillor Mary Roche, who has been particularly active in pursuit of university designation, claims there are “two elephants in the room” which are detrimental to the cause and being used “to hide the government’s blushes”.
She identifies them as the 2004 OECD Report into Third Level Education and the ambivalence of Carlow IT to WIT’s application. “These need to be taken out into the light and dealt with”, she stated.
She said the OECD report, which recommended no further transfers from the IT to the university sector, had been completely discredited in that it was completely at odds with every other report on third and fourth level education carried out by the OECD for any other country.
As for Carlow IT, she said its negative stance could only be explained by pettiness and territorial considerations. She added: “Every other Gateway City boasts both a university and an Institute of Technology operating in a complimentary way. This is how it should operate in the south east also”.
And the outspoken councilors went on: “Waterford’s designation as a university would open many opportunities for Carlow, but for local parochial reasons Carlow is prepared to see the region go without a university rather than see Waterford get it. This is the worst ‘lobsters in the pot’ syndrome that I have experienced for a long time. At the expense of the population of the entire region, Carlow would prefer to keep Waterford down and hold it back rather than see it succeed. It is wholly unacceptable and amounts to politicking of the worst imaginable sort which must not be allowed impinge on WIT’s fully justified application”.
Finally, she issued a reminder that the Taoiseach was on record as supporting the university cause and he should be held to that commitment.
Fully entitled
Cllr. Roche was speaking at Monday night’s monthly meeting of the City Council, at which Standing Orders were suspended to discuss the university issue.
Cllr. Tom Cunningham said Fine Gael’s clear commitment to the university was good news for Waterford. His party was now obliged to deliver in government and that was something the public should bear in mind at the next election if the current Coalition didn’t show the courage in the meantime to make the right decision at Cabinet level.
His party colleague Cllr. Hilary Quinlan said that if the university boat sailed without Waterford on board it could be another 20 or 30 years before there was a chance to rectify the situation. So it was up to every local politician in the region to lobby TDs and Senators across the political divide. He hoped it wasn’t significant that some Fianna Fail representatives, from Carlow/Kilkenny in particular, had so far failed to nail their colours to the mast on the issue.
Cllr. Pat Hayes said the case in favour had been made ad nauseum – a university was the most vital infrastructural ingredient for the economic growth of the south east. He called on the Taoiseach to take charge of the matter and “get the job done”. And, while welcoming Fine Gael “on board”, he issued a reminder that Labour had the university included in its manifesto for the last two general elections.
All of the other councillors, including the Mayor, were also adamant that Waterford must get the university to which it was fully entitled.0 -
http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fine-gaels-university-pledge/
Fine Gael’s university pledge
By Tom Young. Published on Friday, March 14th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Fine Gael nationally has finally, officially, pledged to join in the fight for a university for Waterford. And its Education Spokesman Brian Hayes promised this week not to drop the cudgel until it is delivered.
While its’ local representatives have long been behind the campaign the party itself has been reluctant to commit itself. But that has now changed and amid fears that the government is going to refuse an upgrading of WIT when it responds to the Port Report, Mr. Hayes came to Waterford on Monday to confirm his support and that of his leader Enda Kenny.
He promised that Fine Gael would campaign vigorously on the issue in opposition and if unsuccessful would deliver on its commitment if returned to power at the next election. Meanwhile – again in the absence of their desired response from the current government – it would be made a prime issue in the local and European elections next year.
The hope among campaigners is that Fine Gael’s stance will help pressure the Coalition into saying yes.
Mr. Hayes said that although Waterford could not be dealt with in isolation in terms of education needs, it had a unique and special case for a university. “I’m calling on the government to respond positively to the Port Report and if it doesn’t I’m pledging to keep this matter on the agenda until there is delivery”, he told the local media.
He accused the government of neglecting Waterford and the region in terms of educational investment. “Having designated Waterford as a Gateway City it failed to follow up with education funding”, he said. “This is particularly stark when one considers that only 11.2 p.c. of adults in the south east have completed third level education to degree stage or higher, compared to 15.6 p.c. nationally and 21.3 p.c. in Dublin”.
Petition
Arguing that a university was vital for further economic development in the region, he said one of the first questions asked by prospective investors concerned the availability of top grade education. And while WIT had served its purpose outstandingly well, people from abroad who were thinking of coming here wanted university education for their children and those of their management personnel.
The Shadow Spokesman also wants DIT’s application for university status to be met. And in an overhaul of the higher education sector he also wants a review of the criteria required for university designation, a new “umbrella university” for the Institute of Technology sector and greater collaboration between Institutes of Technology and regional universities.
Present at the Waterford launch of the Fine Gael strategy were TDs John Deasy and Phil Hogan, Senators Maurice Cummins, Paudie Coffey and John Paul Phelan, Mayor Mary O’Halloran and her FG City Council colleagues Hilary Quinlan and Tom Cunningham.
The Mayor welcomed her party’s strategy and Senator Cummins drew attention to a petition with 3,000 signatures gathered by Waterford Young Fine Gael (of which his son John is chairman) at schools throughout the city and county.
Not all schools took part, however. Those which did are: De La Salle College, Our Lady of Mercy, St. Angela’s, Stella Maris, Tramore, Abbey Community College, Ferrybank, Blackwater CC and St. Augustine’s, Dungarvan.
Mary accuses Carlow
Meanwhile, Independent City Councillor Mary Roche, who has been particularly active in pursuit of university designation, claims there are “two elephants in the room” which are detrimental to the cause and being used “to hide the government’s blushes”.
She identifies them as the 2004 OECD Report into Third Level Education and the ambivalence of Carlow IT to WIT’s application. “These need to be taken out into the light and dealt with”, she stated.
She said the OECD report, which recommended no further transfers from the IT to the university sector, had been completely discredited in that it was completely at odds with every other report on third and fourth level education carried out by the OECD for any other country.
As for Carlow IT, she said its negative stance could only be explained by pettiness and territorial considerations. She added: “Every other Gateway City boasts both a university and an Institute of Technology operating in a complimentary way. This is how it should operate in the south east also”.
And the outspoken councilors went on: “Waterford’s designation as a university would open many opportunities for Carlow, but for local parochial reasons Carlow is prepared to see the region go without a university rather than see Waterford get it. This is the worst ‘lobsters in the pot’ syndrome that I have experienced for a long time. At the expense of the population of the entire region, Carlow would prefer to keep Waterford down and hold it back rather than see it succeed. It is wholly unacceptable and amounts to politicking of the worst imaginable sort which must not be allowed impinge on WIT’s fully justified application”.
Finally, she issued a reminder that the Taoiseach was on record as supporting the university cause and he should be held to that commitment.
Fully entitled
Cllr. Roche was speaking at Monday night’s monthly meeting of the City Council, at which Standing Orders were suspended to discuss the university issue.
Cllr. Tom Cunningham said Fine Gael’s clear commitment to the university was good news for Waterford. His party was now obliged to deliver in government and that was something the public should bear in mind at the next election if the current Coalition didn’t show the courage in the meantime to make the right decision at Cabinet level.
His party colleague Cllr. Hilary Quinlan said that if the university boat sailed without Waterford on board it could be another 20 or 30 years before there was a chance to rectify the situation. So it was up to every local politician in the region to lobby TDs and Senators across the political divide. He hoped it wasn’t significant that some Fianna Fail representatives, from Carlow/Kilkenny in particular, had so far failed to nail their colours to the mast on the issue.
Cllr. Pat Hayes said the case in favour had been made ad nauseum – a university was the most vital infrastructural ingredient for the economic growth of the south east. He called on the Taoiseach to take charge of the matter and “get the job done”. And, while welcoming Fine Gael “on board”, he issued a reminder that Labour had the university included in its manifesto for the last two general elections.
All of the other councillors, including the Mayor, were also adamant that Waterford must get the university to which it was fully entitled.
Great stuff. Waterford hasn't had a minister for a number of years and the problem with Irish politics is you need one to get anything major done . ( see LIT , with the local ,Minister for education and Finance , the only IT to get approved capital development in the lifetime of this government).
If Phil Hogan had been a Waterford TD rather than Carlow /Kilkenny after 2011 Arkeen hospital would be the primary care hospital of the South East and WIT would be well on its way to being a university without CarlowIT. Its sickening really0 -
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Interestingly, Cullinane (SF) has declared support for a Technological University only. That's all he is campaigning for, alongside Paudie Coffey (FG) re: University issue.0 -
Interestingly, Cullinane (SF) has declared support for a Technological University only. That's all he is campaigning for, alongside Paudie Coffey (FG) re: University issue.
and we know that Paudie Coffeey and his party's support and promises on the university have been a load of b*%£%x
so why would anyone trust him and his party to deliver...0 -
More commentary coming out of CIT about the dysfunctional TU process
http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/education-and-students-the-real-losers-as-cost-cutting-drives-plans-to-merge-its-382497.html
interesting to see that the Carlow TU cheerleaders who were all over this thread a year ago have disappeared. It's great to see the real underlying cost cutting agenda of the TU process being revealed.0 -
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Some interesting Things going on at the moment
Firstly TUI are staunchly against the merger scenario with real opposition coming out of CIT
http://www.tui.ie/news-events/tui-members-vote-overwhelmingly-in-favour-of-industrial-action-over-grave-institute-of-technology-merger-concerns-.8142.html
Secondly Michael Martin and Michael Mcgrath ( both CORK TDs with connections with CIT) were both against the merger prerequisite in the TU legislation debate that happened before the Dail disbanded and which didn't ultimately pass the legislation. If a Fine Gael and Fiannia Fail coalition comes about after the election (which is possible) what will happens to this legislation.Its all to play for and I think we may look back at suspension of merger with Carlow in November 2014 as a really courageous and correct decision.0 -
Conway and Coffey, the two big peddlers of the TU and merger nonsense are gone. Where do the current crop of TDs stand on WIT ?0
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SF support it, not sure about FF
Sinn Fein support the TU legislation in principle but dont support the prerequisite to merge in order to become a TU . Their education spokesman tabled a number of amendments to the TU bill removing the merger aspect , they were voted down by the government but the legislation didn't pass before the election
Sinn fein Amendment( supported by FF in the vote but rejected by the then government majority)
I have tabled amendment No. 60 because we are proposing to remove the word "merged" or "merger" and, therefore, we would need entirely new eligibility criteria. This is what we have provided in our amendment. We have set out new eligibility criteria based on the requirement for institutes to have merged before they can obtain technological university status. It is not simply about tinkering with one or two subsections; it is about creating altogether new criteria.
The Minister will argue that we cannot make such a change at this stage because the criteria have been laid out and some of the proposed technological universities are so far down the line that it would be unfair on them to change the criteria in mid-stream. I imagine that is the Minister's opinion. However, if the criteria are flawed, they are flawed. Whether the necessary changes take place mid-stream or at the beginning, we need to get the criteria right, and I do not believe the Minister has got the criteria right in this regard.
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Great to see some positive news for WIT today in the Times , Willie Donnellys leadership seems to be making a difference
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/how-are-our-universities-and-colleges-performing-1.25731060 -
Also some interesting reading about the TU situation , "the irish water of higher education"
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/technological-universities-are-they-really-such-a-good-idea-1.25677570 -
Interesting column in the independent today about the future of education
But it's when it comes to higher education that alarm bells should start ringing. Tucked into the manifesto is a promise that institutes of technology won't have to merge before they become technological universities. No doubt the good people of Waterford cheered as it means they won't have to proceed with the plan to merge with hoi polloi in Carlow before they become a technological university.
If they don't have to merge - and that was always going to be difficult anyway - then why should Cork and Tralee ITs have to? Or why should Galway, Sligo and Letterkenny have to? Or why should DIT have to amalgamate with Tallaght and Blanchardstown ITs?
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/its-time-somebody-shouted-stop-to-fine-gael-and-fianna-fils-education-plans-34579838.html0 -
Also some interesting commentary from Micheál Martin on the technological universities situation
“The Minister’s attempt to force mergers and consolidation is a cost saving measure pure and simple. There are absolutely no academic or logical reasons that just because an IT merges with a neighbouring IT that it should be any more, or less eligible, to be given University Status.
“We need to ensure that Fine Gael and Labour are not involved with the next government and are not able to proceed with this regressive Bill which will decimate the IT sector.
“Fianna Fáil will not support the Technological Universities Bill in next Dáil. We support the establishment of Technological Universities however we believe that ITs should be eligible to apply for Technological University status on their own without the necessity of a merger. ITs should not be forced to merge,” said Deputy Martin".
I think we will look back at the decision by the WIT governing body not to be railroaded into the merger with Carlow in Nov 2014 as massively courageous.0 -
Also some interesting commentary from Micheál Martin on the technological universities situation
“The Minister’s attempt to force mergers and consolidation is a cost saving measure pure and simple. There are absolutely no academic or logical reasons that just because an IT merges with a neighbouring IT that it should be any more, or less eligible, to be given University Status.
“We need to ensure that Fine Gael and Labour are not involved with the next government and are not able to proceed with this regressive Bill which will decimate the IT sector.
“Fianna Fáil will not support the Technological Universities Bill in next Dáil. We support the establishment of Technological Universities however we believe that ITs should be eligible to apply for Technological University status on their own without the necessity of a merger. ITs should not be forced to merge,” said Deputy Martin".
I think we will look back at the decision by the WIT governing body not to be railroaded into the merger with Carlow in Nov 2014 as massively courageous.
Remember - and I stand corrected if wrong - this is the same Micheal Martin who kicked off in Cork when WRTC was upgraded to IT status. Resulting in ALL RTCs being upgraded......0 -
That may be true and Martin is going out to bat again for CIT because they don't want to merge with Tralee. But this time it will be for the benefit of WIT by finally killing off merger process0
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That may be true and Martin is going out to bat again for CIT because they don't want to merge with Tralee. But this time it will be for the benefit of WIT by finally killing off merger process
I've said this before and I will say it again.
The principle of the whole WIT upgrade has been to give Waterford a level playing field. In fact if we did get a full blown university we would still be behind because because we wouldn't have both an I.T. and a University in the city. If other cities also get the TU then we are no better then where we are right now, which is way behind.0 -
I agree with the sentiment and the reasons why waterford needs a university are well known. The realpolitik of the situation is the ship has sailed for full university status as the vested interests in the other Universities are against it and the political will is not there.( having a university and an IT In the city is completely unrealistic)I've said this before and I will say it again.
The principle of the whole WIT upgrade has been to give Waterford a level playing field. In fact if we did get a full blown university we would still be behind because because we wouldn't have both an I.T. and a University in the city. If other cities also get the TU then we are no better then where we are right now, which is way behind.
So the best other option available is a TU without having to merge with carlow.That said the TU process selection needs to rigorous so we dont have the and the one for everyone situation that arose after the IT upgrade. I think there would be some value in being a TU if for example only WIT ,CIT and DIT reached that level.0 -
More nails in the TU merger prerequisite coffin
The Teachers’s Union of Ireland (TUI) has warned of industrial action in the event of unilateral moves by the Government to merge institutes of technology.
TUI president Gerry Quinn told delegates at the union’s annual conference in Killarney that in an era of brutal education retrenchment, mergers had “become a byword for more cuts”.
He said the outgoing Government had tried unsuccessfuly to rush the Technological Universities Bill through the Oireachtas before the election. He said this contained a number of threats including a lack of adequate protection for terms and conditions of employment and provisions for local and regional education needs.
Mr Quinn said while the Bill did not pass, the TUI had in the meantime secured a strong mandate from its third level members for industrial action to seek national negotiations before there is any further movement on mergers or on the Technological Universities Bill.
“We have issued a directive prohibiting co-operation with mergers and we continue to use our mandate as necessary to oppose any unwanted merger, to oppose any deterioration of members’ conditions of service and to oppose the undermining of the position of academics and the provision of regionally-balanced and equitable education and training services,” he said.0 -
The ship has not sailed on full university status Imacman. It was always going to involve a politician of substance to deliver it. Remember Maynooth university was created in six weeks by Charlie McCreevy, DCU and UL each had an alpha politician behind them. Four universities have been created in the last 30 years on this Island- so it can be done; and it needs to be done. Our day will come, within WIT we have to work incrementally towards it; and outside WIT the local political environment needs to recognise that it is the only thing that will lift the economy of the south east.0
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Waterford needs to get a Starbucks first.0
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Willie Donnelly on the future of WIT
Regional University will need more than ‘yellow pack’ budget
http://www.munster-express.ie/front-page-news/regional-university-will-need-more-than-%E2%80%98yellow-pack%E2%80%99-budget/0 -
I think Willie gets it; he is just very constrained given the political forces set against Waterford and our aspirations. His focus on getting funding for the two buildings, and ensuring that no fake university emerges from the TU process are exactly the right things to be fighting for.0
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Good to see that 2.5m extension to carriganore in papers today.0
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Max Powers wrote: »Good to see that 2.5m extension to carriganore in papers today.
Was money that was supposed to be used to improve buildings/facilities in the Cork Rd. campus used in the extension to Carriganore?0 -
Add your reply here.callaway92 wrote: »Max Powers wrote: »Good to see that 2.5m extension to carriganore in papers today.
Was money that was supposed to be used to improve buildings/facilities in the Cork Rd. campus used in the extension to Carriganore?
Nope it's money from enterprise Ireland that can only be spent on the incubation building.0 -
Max Powers wrote: »Good to see that 2.5m extension to carriganore in papers today.
I came here expecting a seperate thread on this. This is huge news.
Whats crazy about this is that it will provide FAR better jobs and experience than Eishtec ever could for 100s of Waterford Youth yet it barely gets a mention.
I continue to believe that people here just like to hear bad news and are part of some kind of self fulfilling prophecy.
Thats about 150 immediate families far better off for the rest of their lives. This company puts people back through college to improve their skillset yet Eishtec puts people on their fat asses and feeds them sweets.
The next big employers are born in places like this e.g Nearform who are taking on another 150 or so in Tramore.0 -
Digital Society wrote: »I came here expecting a seperate thread on this. This is huge news.
Whats crazy about this is that it will provide FAR better jobs and experience than Eishtec ever could for 100s of Waterford Youth yet it barely gets a mention.
I continue to believe that people here just like to hear bad news and are part of some kind of self fulfilling prophecy.
Thats about 150 immediate families far better off for the rest of their lives. This company puts people back through college to improve their skillset yet Eishtec puts people on their fat asses and feeds them sweets.
The next big employers are born in places like this e.g Nearform who are taking on another 150 or so in Tramore.
I think you are overreacting,, everyone thinks this is good news, maybe not as enthusiastically as people directly in the tech /research sector.you should withdraw your negative comments about other workplaces which a lot of us fat-arssed riff raff have to do to make a living.0 -
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Max Powers wrote: »I think you are overreacting,, everyone thinks this is good news, maybe not as enthusiastically as people directly in the tech /research sector.you should withdraw your negative comments about other workplaces which a lot of us fat-arssed riff raff have to do to make a living.
Dont be funny now.
Ive worked there for a long time myself so i can speak first hand of the sweets they hand out to keep the employees happy. My opinions come from experience.0
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