Waterford University discussion

Killergreene

it's a disgrace the politicians in waterford haven't fought harder for this.

I don't see what the big problem is from the government point of view. extra costs but they would be recovered with the investment a university would bring and it would create another city as an alternative to dublin.

azimuth17

Limerick has boomed since uni status. A lot of the uni life is around the campus where major building is still going on. never stopped in past ten years really. It seems in some funny way as if the government, or sections of it do not want another university city between Dublin and Cork? As it is, Waterford is teh only Irish city without a university.

Harry Palmr

Don't forget Kilkenny!

Killergreene

belfast have 2 unis!

Harry Palmr

Cork will have two if Waterford looks like getting one.

robtri

azimuth17 wrote: »

Limerick has boomed since uni status. A lot of the uni life is around the campus where major building is still going on. never stopped in past ten years really. It seems in some funny way as if the government, or sections of it do not want another university city between Dublin and Cork? As it is, Waterford is teh only Irish city without a university.

what is your definition of booming since its uni status....

invara

robtri wrote: »

what is your definition of booming since its uni status....

Contrast the unemployment rates between limerick and waterford over the past 30 years and it shows what booming means. The used to move in lockstep with limerick slight worse off..... since mid-2000s they part.

Deiseen

For anyone thinking that Limerick has not benefitted from the University then I suggest they visit the city and have a look at their industrial estates. Then come back and tell us how they have not benefitted.

PMBC

I have no gripe with Waterford city; its a nice place. But is Ireland big enough to have such a number of Universities. Businesses would probably gain but would it push up property prices, food and services to the detriment of the other citizens of the city?

Deiseen

PMBC wrote: »

I have no gripe with Waterford city; its a nice place. But is Ireland big enough to have such a number of Universities. Businesses would probably gain but would it push up property prices, food and services to the detriment of the other citizens of the city?

Probably would have some effect on property. Food and drink is about the same price in Limerick (and Ireland in general barring spots in Dublin). If you look at average property prices in Limerick, theyre not much more than Waterford. Even Galway's property prices are not hugely different than in Waterford. Those houses are probably in better nick than the ones in our city too so that probably has some upward effect on average prices.

azimuth17

In many visits to Limerick over past few years it is obvious that investment in the university and in the hospital have never stopped. There is evidence of a lot of other investment in retail and business. Perhaps when I compare Limerick with Waterford I feel the former is booming. If there is anyone from Limerick on this forum who has a different view I would be interested. Being in Limerick city last week there was really palpable economic vibe. As for a university for Waterford, to suggest that Ireland has enough universities is misleading. Finland has 17 I think for the same population and has some of the best educational outcomes in the OECD. Limerick has had its uni for 30 years and I would suggest that the trajectory of that city (well know difficulties notwithstanding)versus Waterford has been upward. We have struggled along the bottom.Maybe I'm wrong?

Harry Palmr

Harry Palmr wrote: »

On Galway - it was a city of 37,800 in 1981, Waterford was 38,400. Then something happened, maybe University related but the "capital of the wesht" went on a body building course with the help of an almost permanent senior minister for the constituency and now has a population of 79,500 at the last count and that doesn't take into consideration the sprawl just beyond the City boundary not something that really applies to Waterford so large was the expansion of the limits back in the 80s

Stats in this country are a disgrace frankly so getting hold of accurate data for City boroughs and the like is all but impossible - county figures are said to be unreliable by the CSO themselves but gut instinct says Galway City must be 10-15% above Waterford at least.

One of the suggested reasons on why Galway took off is counterintuitive - it was because of the sudden closure of the Digital Equipment Corporation assembly line and the loss of over 1,000 jobs overnight. Digital supposedly made the IDA keep other tech companies out to keep competition for staff down. When they shut down there were a lot of skilled people with redundancy payments who started their own businesses. The IDA then searched for a replacement and was lucky to get Boston Scientific which kicked off the biomedical sector. Other IT and biomed companies started popping up to take advantage of the skilled workers. It was a virtuous circle.

The university and RTC definitely helped by offering relevant courses.

imacman

Killergreene wrote: »

it's a disgrace the politicians in waterford haven't fought harder for this.

I don't see what the big problem is from the government point of view. extra costs but they would be recovered with the investment a university would bring and it would create another city as an alternative to dublin.

The university debate just keeps on going round and round. Demographic or educational needs dont come into this matter. Its completely determined by the politicians and the other universities who have never wanted a university in the south east (as it will affect their numbers and funding %).
We have never had a politician as a high enough level to defy the university sector which and even at that the resistance is so established to a fully fledged university in the south east that it probably will never happen.

azimuth17

The impact of the university in Galway was/is long term, coupled with the Save the West notion? When Waterford was trying for uni status to further its economic development, remember that Galway already had a high quota of alumni spread across many sectors of business,commerce and politics. Hence influence when necessary and the greatly increased possibility of ministerial office. Its really only since WIT (and started awarding degrees) that Waterford has begun to make some inroads on the Dublin base.

robtri

invara wrote: »

Contrast the unemployment rates between limerick and waterford over the past 30 years and it shows what booming means. The used to move in lockstep with limerick slight worse off..... since mid-2000s they part.

can you show us these stats please...

I would say

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/227504/limerick-still-has-most-unemployment-blackspots-report.html

opening line

LIMERICK city has the highest number of “unemployment blackspots” and the highest rate of youth unemployment in the country, according to a report published by Limerick Regeneration.

and

even of the country’s top 10 blackspots are situated in Limerick city, and these specifically in Regeneration areas. St Mary’s Park has a 57% unemployment rate; 55% in O’Malley Park and Keyes Park; 47% in Moyross and Ballynanty; and 47% in Carew Park and Kincora Park.

The report states that youth unemployment “remains a key issue to address” in the coming years.

While the UNI has helped Limerick it hasn't solved it problems.....



CSO 2011 for limerick city
http://census.cso.ie/areaprofiles/PDF/CTY/limerickcity.pdf
unemployment 28.6

CSO for 2011 for Waterford city
http://census.cso.ie/areaprofiles/PDF/CTY/waterfordcity.pdf
unemployment 25.1

doesn't look like a UNI is the magic golden bullet

azimuth17

The only thing I can say is that the urban boundary of Limerick city (as it existed before the amalgamation with the county and for which the census data applies) was a very tight boundary. Most of the public housing in the area is in the city area and most of the private housing is in the hinterland of the city. The area in that sense was socially divided The small area data of the CSO as applying ot the traditional city area can thus in my opinion give an erroneous picture of the area and of its population. Not sure if i am making myself clear.

robtri

azimuth17 wrote: »

The only thing I can say is that the urban boundary of Limerick city (as it existed before the amalgamation with the county and for which the census data applies) was a very tight boundary. Most of the public housing in the area is in the city area and most of the private housing is in the hinterland of the city. The area in that sense was socially divided The small area data of the CSO as applying ot the traditional city area can thus in my opinion give an erroneous picture of the area and of its population. Not sure if i am making myself clear.

can you link to that.. never heard that before

azimuth17

Apologies, I cannot find it. I saw a comparative study of Limerick city (with Waterford and Galway) which suggested that the boundaries of the city were too tight to get an overall picture of the prosperity of the Limerick city region. That could only be obtained by considering the city population plus its attendant rural electoral areas in co Limerick and Clare. In the very same way as a picture of a small area like Waterford city can statistically give rise to a picture of the area which may not be accurate. A best local understanding would be found by considering Waterford city with its no 1 and no 2 Electoral divisions or rural areas in counties Waterford and Kilkenny respectively. If Waterford city had not had a boundary extension in 1980 the city area defined before that date would now exhibit strong levels of deprivation based on a small population sample. One could draw the same inference from Cork city which had been declining in population while its close rural areas were growing strongly. The present tight boundary of Cork city does not present an accurate view of teh prosperity of the Cork City region.

O Riain

Also, keep in mind that Limerick is a city that is double the size of Waterford so you are going to get more areas of depravity. This is not necessarily the fault of the city but can be down to national causes.
In terms of development, Limerick is on another level from Waterford. It just takes a visit there to see the University, the industrial estates and the sheer amount of companies that they have there. Don't go by CSO facts, go down there and have a look. Yes, it does have dodgy areas but so do all big towns/cities.

azimuth17

As a follow on from previous posts it should be pointed out that UL is not even in Limerick city. Its in the county. Anyone who has seen the level of development in Groody, Ballysheedy, Plassey and all along the Dublin Road will understand in my opinion how the economy of Limerick city cannot be considered in a detached way from its immediate surroundings. We have nothing like that level of development in Waterford. Our city in reality is about half the size of Limerick when immediate hinterlands are considered.

robtri

Waterford.... always an excuse.. or a reason to be worse than others...

and still clinging to the belief that a UNI will sort everything out... reminds me of Monorail, monorail, monorail.....

azimuth17

You may be right ROBTRI, but then again, you may be wrong. Longevity of aspiration does not diminish its honesty. Having a uni now is like having clean water in the 19th century. Just because you have become cynical after thousands of posts doesn't detract from the validity of Waterford's aspiration. Uni status is natural for Waterford and will be achieved in time. I am not sure it is the panacea for anything but it helps in creating a level playing field....just like having clean water. Meanwhile, stop viewing everything through a Simpson's prism.

robtri

azimuth17 wrote: »

You may be right ROBTRI, but then again, you may be wrong. Longevity of aspiration does not diminish its honesty. Having a uni now is like having clean water in the 19th century. Just because you have become cynical after thousands of posts doesn't detract from the validity of Waterford's aspiration. Uni status is natural for Waterford and will be achieved in time. I am not sure it is the panacea for anything but it helps in creating a level playing field....just like having clean water. Meanwhile, stop viewing everything through a Simpson's prism.

As said I am behind waterford goal for a uni...

its the look at limerick how well they are doing cause of the uni... nothing to back it up
when info posted to show limerick is/was doing as crappy as waterford.. excuses come out....

Limerick is not way better off than Waterford because of a Uni...

other stuff gets posted like we only city without a Uni... but again not true... but it gives some waterfordians the belief of been so hard done by.

azimuth17

Struggling to understand what you mean about Waterford not being the only city without a uni? This is de facto accurate.

Killergreene

is kilkenny a city?
does derry have a Uni ?

invara

Killergreene wrote: »

is kilkenny a city?
does derry have a Uni ?

Kilkenny with its 21k people is a historic city reflecting its royal charter, but not its administrative status. Derry is a very interesting case. The unionist governments could never accept a proper uni in the Catholic leaning city, which serves a southern region hence the Frankenstein that is UU with Magee College.... which is now getting a med school.

Deiseen

robtri wrote: »

azimuth17 wrote: »

You may be right ROBTRI, but then again, you may be wrong. Longevity of aspiration does not diminish its honesty. Having a uni now is like having clean water in the 19th century. Just because you have become cynical after thousands of posts doesn't detract from the validity of Waterford's aspiration. Uni status is natural for Waterford and will be achieved in time. I am not sure it is the panacea for anything but it helps in creating a level playing field....just like having clean water. Meanwhile, stop viewing everything through a Simpson's prism.

As said I am behind waterford goal for a uni...

its the look at limerick how well they are doing cause of the uni... nothing to back it up
when info posted to show limerick is/was doing as crappy as waterford.. excuses come out....

Limerick is not way better off than Waterford because of a Uni...

other stuff gets posted like we only city without a Uni... but again not true... but it gives some waterfordians the belief of been so hard done by.

As people have said, those facts don't necessarily paint the full picture for Limerick. I've lived there and the industry that they have there is phenomenal and the level of development simply blows Waterford away. If you want to deny the facts coming from people who have spent time there then that's your choice.

azimuth17

I am a native of Waterford and am as proud as anyone of the city, but the presence of a university is now the the one thing that differentiates Irish cities. We must acknowledge the deficits we do have and work towards solutions. Lack of a uni is a major deficit. Claims about Kilkenny and historic city charters and the like are meaningless in the present day republic we live in. I have no wish to be offensive to anyone, but they simply muddy the waters about a university for the south east located in the only city in the south east. Ideas about different campus locations could be discussed after university designation is approved. Maybe the new Spatial National Strategy from Simon Coveney to be issued later today will add some directional clarity?

imacman

robtri wrote: »

Waterford.... always an excuse.. or a reason to be worse than others...

and still clinging to the belief that a UNI will sort everything out... reminds me of Monorail, monorail, monorail.....

I agree somewhat with this statement ,People seem to have the view a university as a sliver bullet for all the woes of the South East.
What annoys me is at any mention of the South East Universiy/TU and the "regional stakeholders" like the chamber of commerce and IBEC come out and tell us how it be a game changer for the southeast . But we never hear them calling for more funding or facilities for WIT in the here and now.

reni10

What about this 2040 Gov Consultation announced today?

They are talking about Dublin getting too congested and basically everything in the country stemming from there and they just will not have the infrastructure to support it so surely something like a University in the South East so that more people from the South East can access a Uni in their own back yard instead of going to Dublin should be called out very strongly in this consultation?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-is-eating-into-ireland-and-government-is-not-geared-to-combat-growth-right-now-35418203.html