Waterford University discussion

invara

Deiseen wrote: »

How much is Waterford Crystal site?

Absolutely ideal for a University to be honest.

The site is privately owned so would require negotiation. I imagine it could be partially be bought for €2m+. The cost of a new teaching building is between €5m-20m to give an idea of how smart it is to buy that site. But Government is not moved by the argument.

Deiseen

invara wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

How much is Waterford Crystal site?

Absolutely ideal for a University to be honest.

The site is privately owned so would require negotiation. I imagine it could be partially be bought for €2m+. The cost of a new teaching building is between €5m-20m to give an idea of how smart it is to buy that site. But Government is not moved by the argument.

I know the council have their hands full with the North Quays but it would be ideal for them to go down Limerick's route of applying to Europe for money to buy this so as to make sure its put to best use.

invara

Deiseen wrote: »

How much is Waterford Crystal site?

Absolutely ideal for a University to be honest.

Deiseen wrote: »

I know the council have their hands full with the North Quays but it would be ideal for them to go down Limerick's route of applying to Europe for money to buy this so as to make sure its put to best use.

Noonan organised that loan, not Limerick Council. EIB does not lend without national government approval/effort. Zilch chance of that happening in Waterford.

mountcisco

invara wrote: »

Noonan organised that loan, not Limerick Council. EIB does not lend without national government approval/effort. Zilch chance of that happening in Waterford.

Isn't Leo's mother from Dungarvan? Deasy should be bending his ear.

imacman

invara wrote: »

The site is privately owned so would require negotiation. I imagine it could be partially be bought for €2m+. The cost of a new teaching building is between €5m-20m to give an idea of how smart it is to buy that site. But Government is not moved by the argument.

Government is not interested in a university style campus in Waterford,all thats on the agenda is a on the cheap TU rebrand with as little investment as possible.Its interesting that the new building that was announced and its has changed from an engineering building to an engineering, IT and general teaching building.I have heard this is a way to crowbar the college street students back on to the main campus and get rid of that college street.

Buying the Waterford crystal site to expand is a pipe dream with the financial status of WIT and even if they could get it look at the track record of Planning at WIT

A sports campus 2 miles away from the main campus even thought there was an idea site with a pool and loads of space(Waterford crystal sports) up they road which is vacant now with overgrown abandoned playing pitch's.

Big buildings but no thought on how that work or internlink with other , so we end up with an T&L and nursing building isolated. We dont live in Spain, students and staff shouldn't have to walk long distances through the wind and rain to reach buildings. Go look at ITSligo , they have a modern campus built over the same time period as WIT but all the buildings link up with each other and as a result it feels a real campus. WIT feels like a bus station where everyone is just passing through.

No real recreation or chill out spaces for students, again look at ITSligo or ITCarlow for example , they have great casual spaces for students.What does WIT have a few chairs and couchs in the atriums mixed in with all the random tables and stands that are thrown around the place.

So dont expect WIT to come up with a great masterplan

Max Powers

Wouldn't agree with that above really, loads of universities/ITs have separate buildings on campus,ucd, trinity,dcu,ul,dit, etc.no big deal to walk 100m to another building even if its bucketing down.plenty of rec places there too, more than a lot of places, bar on campus, sports,various canteens and seating everywhere, inside and out.
WITs problem is we have no politicians in govt with jobs, when next election happens that should be big consideration when voting IMO, who likely to be in power? Surely we have learned our lesson now that the table bangers are about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

invara

So we finally have the answer to the University sized problem of the South East in the TU bill going through the Oireachtas...... any thoughts on it?

Wanderer78

invara wrote: »

So we finally have the answer to the University sized problem of the South East in the TU bill going through the Oireachtas...... any thoughts on it?

yippee, yellow pack uni!:D

spaceCreated

invara wrote: »

So we finally have the answer to the University sized problem of the South East in the TU bill going through the Oireachtas...... any thoughts on it?

It actually takes money away from a college to go through the process, where are wit and carlow meant to come up with an estimated cost of 10 million... and then get zero back except an administrative nightmare

914

invara wrote: »

So we finally have the answer to the University sized problem of the South East in the TU bill going through the Oireachtas...... any thoughts on it?

Does it not weaken the region. If a merger happens and we have a south east uni, now students from the region who want to attend an IT will have to leave the region.

Unless all IT's are upgraded to a tech uni just RTC's were to IT's

Surely the region would be best served by having a uni and an IT.

Anyway the way the whole thing seems a farce to me.

imacman

Its a terrible idea and the fighting for dominance between Waterford an Carlow has already begun. Carlow think they can lead this merger even though they are the smaller organisation. I dont think the staff in WIT or the people in Waterford know how much Carlow are trying to take this over this process. The management in WIT are being bullied by the HEA because of the financial hole the institute is in and Carlow are seen as the golden boys because of their financial position.Once it gets out how sidelined WIT is becoming I imagine there will have to be some backlash from staff and unions (at least that my hope)
I know this because i know someone from WIT involved at a lower level in the negotiations with Carlow who is growing more and more disturbed with the way things are going and how WIT is rolling over .

invara

My thoughts exactly... I find the boards commentary very good. Toxic gift from Government to the region- same as boundary dispute. The region will have to be back fighting over crumbs rather than getting national cake. The merger is a cut to the region in disguise. IT Carlow has been growing well and progressing for 15 years now and will try to press its advantage. WIT feels dumped upon by this Government and the last- destroyed our leadership, cut our budget to ribbons, refused all new courses, cancelled new buildings (while dumping money into universities in Cork, Limerick, Maynooth and Galway through the EIB). WIT has invested massively in research, staff PhDs, PhD education, student services, is in a larger population centre and is being pushed into a merger of equals. HQ in Kilkenny, president from Carlow is the current Carlow thinking on how things will shape up. We will continue to see the stampede out of the region - 2/3 of leaving certs going on to degree have to leave the region- no plan for a med school, teacher training college, food business etc....

imacman

invara wrote: »

My thoughts exactly... I find the boards commentary very good. Toxic gift from Government to the region- same as boundary dispute. The region will have to be back fighting over crumbs rather than getting national cake. The merger is a cut to the region in disguise. IT Carlow has been growing well and progressing for 15 years now and will try to press its advantage. WIT feels dumped upon by this Government and the last- destroyed our leadership, cut our budget to ribbons, refused all new courses, cancelled new buildings (while dumping money into universities in Cork, Limerick, Maynooth and Galway through the EIB). WIT has invested massively in research, staff PhDs, PhD education, student services, is in a larger population centre and is being pushed into a merger of equals. HQ in Kilkenny, president from Carlow is the current Carlow thinking on how things will shape up. We will continue to see the stampede out of the region - 2/3 of leaving certs going on to degree have to leave the region- no plan for a med school, teacher training college, food business etc....

Good points , it sadden me to see 50 years of WIT/WRTC excellent service to Waterford and the region been thrown away for this yellow pack university confidence trick.Added to this Carlow are calling all of the shots with the backing of the HEA and Waterford is being bullied into submission.Its a sad time for the proud current and former staff of WIT and the wider people of Waterford.

spaceCreated

imacman wrote: »

Good points , it sadden me to see 50 years of WIT/WRTC excellent service to Waterford and the region been thrown away for this yellow pack university confidence trick.Added to this Carlow are calling all of the shots with the backing of the HEA and Waterford is being bullied into submission.Its a sad time for the proud current and former staff of WIT and the wider people of Waterford.

I cant imagine it happening like that, not a single td at the time of that happening would ever get in again. The party who put it through would never get a td elected again in the area and would struggle for a councillor

RYGCat

imacman wrote: »

Its a terrible idea and the fighting for dominance between Waterford an Carlow has already begun. Carlow think they can lead this merger even though they are the smaller organisation. I dont think the staff in WIT or the people in Waterford know how much Carlow are trying to take this over this process. The management in WIT are being bullied by the HEA because of the financial hole the institute is in and Carlow are seen as the golden boys because of their financial position.Once it gets out how sidelined WIT is becoming I imagine there will have to be some backlash from staff and unions (at least that my hope)
I know this because i know someone from WIT involved at a lower level in the negotiations with Carlow who is growing more and more disturbed with the way things are going and how WIT is rolling over .

Interesting to see the TUSE website going live

http://www.tuse.ie

Particularly interesting to see the inclusion of Kilkenny?

Deiseen

RYGCat wrote: »

imacman wrote: »

Its a terrible idea and the fighting for dominance between Waterford an Carlow has already begun. Carlow think they can lead this merger even though they are the smaller organisation. I dont think the staff in WIT or the people in Waterford know how much Carlow are trying to take this over this process. The management in WIT are being bullied by the HEA because of the financial hole the institute is in and Carlow are seen as the golden boys because of their financial position.Once it gets out how sidelined WIT is becoming I imagine there will have to be some backlash from staff and unions (at least that my hope)
I know this because i know someone from WIT involved at a lower level in the negotiations with Carlow who is growing more and more disturbed with the way things are going and how WIT is rolling over .

Interesting to see the TUSE website going live

http://www.tuse.ie

Particularly interesting to see the inclusion of Kilkenny?

Is there any mention of Kilkenny other than saying there'll be campuses because W.I.T. have a small campus there.

imacman

A yes the website my friend tells me Carlow developed behind the scenes with no input from WIT and then delivered as a fait accompli , WIT didn't even get to write the about WIT content on that site, Carlow did it for them.Welcome to cooperation Carlow style.

RYGCat

Interesting hypocritical contribution by Paudie Coffey in the Seanad on the TU legislation considering he’s been pushing for an amalgamation for years:

http://patdeering.ie/2012/03/01/carlow-and-waterford-tds-meet-at-it-carlow/

Appears to be working against the WIT board of governors decision

https://www.itcarlow.ie/news.htm/view/id/3404

Local politics at its finest?

Johnboy1951

RYGCat wrote: »

Interesting hypocritical contribution by Paudie Coffey in the Seanad on the TU legislation considering he’s been pushing for an amalgamation for years:

http://patdeering.ie/2012/03/01/carlow-and-waterford-tds-meet-at-it-carlow/

Appears to be working against the WIT board of governors decision

https://www.itcarlow.ie/news.htm/view/id/3404

Local politics at its finest?

Will be interesting to see where that 1.5 mil is spent!

Not what I would consider a 'major' investment TBH.

imacman

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Will be interesting to see where that 1.5 mil is spent!

Not what I would consider a 'major' investment TBH.

That money has already been spent on the Kelly report,external consultants and two TU coordinators who coordinated nothing over the 3 years of their contracts.

azimuth17

HE Capital Funding
(2011 - 2016)
EIB loan
(m)
Announcement
Date
Total Investment (€m)
UCD €90 30.11.11 €200
DCU €76 29.4.13 €230
DIT €110 24.07.13 €230
UL €100 10.12.13 €224
Maynooth €76.77 17.2.15 €153
TCD €70 25.6.15 €155 (est.)
RCSI €50 11.7.16 €103
NUI Galway €60 29.9.16 €120
UCC €100 24.11.16 €241
University + DIT
Capital Programme
€733 2011-2016 €1,656
Institute of Technology
Capital Programme
Nil Nil
The under-provision of higher education capacity
starts with capital expenditure. Over the past five
years there has been almost €1.7bn investment
approved in the university sector (incl. DIT).
There has been no approved capital investment in
the Institute of Technology sector (excluding DIT). The
two regional providers have generated small projects
from their own resources; we can identify two selffunded
building projects; IT Carlow’s investment in the
Haughton student centre (€12m) and WIT’s investment
in the controversial Carriganore Sports Facilities
(€14m). If included, this brings the 5-year regional
investment to 1.57% of the overall State investment.
Source SEEM

Harry Palmr

Where is that from?

invara

RYGCat wrote: »

Interesting hypocritical contribution by Paudie Coffey in the Seanad on the TU legislation considering he’s been pushing for an amalgamation for years:

http://patdeering.ie/2012/03/01/carlow-and-waterford-tds-meet-at-it-carlow/

Appears to be working against the WIT board of governors decision

https://www.itcarlow.ie/news.htm/view/id/3404

Local politics at its finest?

Not fully fair to Paudie or local politics.
The 2012 TU criteria were a tough test that would have put WIT in leadership position in a merger, the current bill waters that criteria down and so WITs investment in research and PhD education counts for nothing. So in 2012 it is understandable that Paudie was positive, now he sees that WIT has got shafted in the watering down of the criteria. He may also see the way that WIT has been silenced by government interference in its leadership since 2011- a pattern that is becoming clearer and clearer.

The 1.5 is nothing compared to the investment needed (more likely wasted) in merging these two places. By way of reference UL spent 2m on its new President’s house (I say new, because there was an old one), and UCC dropped 600k on putting a sign on the Cork Opera House. About 18m per year for five years will be needed for the merger- this sounds high, but must be compared with the 280m it costs to run UCC, 230m to run UL- both Cork and Limerick also have IoTs with CIT costing 100m and LIT costing 45m (for reference WIT costs about 85m and Carlow about 50m). People will go nuts when they realise that does not buy anything, that is just the cost of reducing the two places into a coherent one (so IT integration, management coordination, coordinating all policies, branding staff interaction and mobility etc….) . The politics will fudge this money, pretending that the institutions can be integrated for almost no money and this will lead to both institutions underperforming for a long time (perhaps as much as a decade) as they try to mend and make do in unsatisfactory ways.

All the minister has said about the merger is that critical mass is needed- forgetting that DCU would not merge with DIT (a few miles apart, one a small university, one a huge IoT… that could really have given Trinity and UCD a run for their money) and that Trinity and UCD refused to merge a decade ago (again a few miles apart). The SE is missing money invested in Higher Ed (about 200m in capital, and about 75m per year) compared to the other regions- spend the money in Carlow and Waterford on building capacity and they would have critical mass.

Harry Palmr

Why hasn't WIT simply pulled the plug on this? Do they think the crappy compromise is worth the trouble? What would the dept do if they did say no? Sack everyone and force it through anyway? Maybe. Turn CIT into a university on it's own? Hardly.

azimuth17

Harry Palmr, post above is from South East Economic Monitor.
This also from Seanad debate of 13th February 2018. Paudie Coffey spoke : "The criteria rightly set a high bar for any institute of technology to achieve the status of technological university. We often read about the ranking of Irish universities globally and sometimes concerns are expressed that they are slipping down the rankings. To have substance behind various degree courses, we need to have confidence in the institutes issuing them. Are we just responding to the demands of the time to have all institutes of technology upgraded to technological universities? They should only be elevated on merit. I do not say that to be disrespectful to any institute of technology. According to HEA data, DIT is streets ahead with 448 level 10 PhD students. The next highest is WIT with 148, while CIT has 116; IT Sligo, 35; GMIT, 26; and Carlow IT, 9. These figures demonstrate where strong research is being done in colleges. DIT is progressing strongly towards university status. However, WIT is next and that is why the argument has been made for years that it merits university status."
Carlow IT is obviously a very long way behind WIT.

Harry Palmr

148 v 9! That's such a disparity it's laughable. I wish I'd been following this Saga in detail.

Tail wagging dog and it can only be for political reasons.

taytobreath

surely with those figures u presented azimuth, wit should pull the plug. wit is only getting diluted if this comes to pass.

RYGCat

azimuth17 wrote: »

Harry Palmr, post above is from South East Economic Monitor.
This also from Seanad debate of 13th February 2018. Paudie Coffey spoke : "The criteria rightly set a high bar for any institute of technology to achieve the status of technological university. We often read about the ranking of Irish universities globally and sometimes concerns are expressed that they are slipping down the rankings. To have substance behind various degree courses, we need to have confidence in the institutes issuing them. Are we just responding to the demands of the time to have all institutes of technology upgraded to technological universities? They should only be elevated on merit. I do not say that to be disrespectful to any institute of technology. According to HEA data, DIT is streets ahead with 448 level 10 PhD students. The next highest is WIT with 148, while CIT has 116; IT Sligo, 35; GMIT, 26; and Carlow IT, 9. These figures demonstrate where strong research is being done in colleges. DIT is progressing strongly towards university status. However, WIT is next and that is why the argument has been made for years that it merits university status."
Carlow IT is obviously a very long way behind WIT.

Sounds like a selective use of incorrect misrepresentative facts- classic politician stuff.

Seems to ignore the fact that some institition undergraduate and parttime figures have been in steady decline.

7upfree

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fine-gaels-university-pledge/


2008. Blueshirts. Never to be trusted.

Fine Gael nationally has finally, officially, pledged to join in the fight for a university for Waterford. And its Education Spokesman Brian Hayes promised this week not to drop the cudgel until it is delivered.

While its’ local representatives have long been behind the campaign the party itself has been reluctant to commit itself. But that has now changed and amid fears that the government is going to refuse an upgrading of WIT when it responds to the Port Report, Mr. Hayes came to Waterford on Monday to confirm his support and that of his leader Enda Kenny.

He promised that Fine Gael would campaign vigorously on the issue in opposition and if unsuccessful would deliver on its commitment if returned to power at the next election. Meanwhile – again in the absence of their desired response from the current government – it would be made a prime issue in the local and European elections next year.

The hope among campaigners is that Fine Gael’s stance will help pressure the Coalition into saying yes.

Mr. Hayes said that although Waterford could not be dealt with in isolation in terms of education needs, it had a unique and special case for a university. “I’m calling on the government to respond positively to the Port Report and if it doesn’t I’m pledging to keep this matter on the agenda until there is delivery”, he told the local media.

He accused the government of neglecting Waterford and the region in terms of educational investment. “Having designated Waterford as a Gateway City it failed to follow up with education funding”, he said. “This is particularly stark when one considers that only 11.2 p.c. of adults in the south east have completed third level education to degree stage or higher, compared to 15.6 p.c. nationally and 21.3 p.c. in Dublin”.

imacman

Why hasn't WIT simply pulled the plug on this? Do they think the crappy compromise is worth the trouble? What would the dept do if they did say no? Sack everyone and force it through anyway? Maybe. Turn CIT into a university on it's own? Hardly.

WIT is a hard place on this one , there seems to be no appetite for a merger with Carlow in the institution and bad financial position WIT is in doesn't help its position.It makes my blood boil to hear the vested interests in the region ie politicians,IBEC chambers of commerce etc telling us how we need a university and the TU is the answer with no thought or interest in what a TU will actually be . All they see is university in the title that's enough for them.

The fact that a merger may be damaging for both institutes if its not funded correctly( which it be wont as shown in Invara in an earlier post) is never mentioned , its an inconvenient truth . The TU is a emperor with no clothes but nobody has the courage to call it out and i think Waterford and WIT will look back at this process in 5-10 years and regret they ever got involved.