Waterford University discussion

invara

Interview in the Munster Express trying to remind people of the recent history of the endless journey towards a university in the SE.

http://www.munster-express.ie/business/wit-is-operating-at-university-level/

imacman

Good piece on the dumbing down of the TU criteria, another good indication on how flawed this whole process is but nobody seems to care. .
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/alarm-over-dumbing-down-of-criteria-for-new-technological-universities-1.3414487

imacman

Good piece in the munster express on the TU http://www.munster-express.ie/business/tu-upgrade-would-diminish-wit/

invara

Minister for Educations's press release today (https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2018-press-releases/PR18-04-18.html)

Spending to date:
DIT/ITT/ ITB (TU4D) €4,876,667
CIT/IT Tralee (MTU) €2,296,667
IT Sligo/LYIT/GMIT (CUA) €2,122,000
WIT/IT Carlow (TUSE) €720,000

This reflects WIT/Carlow stepping out of the process. It also shows the bigger point that the TU is just a reheat of the RTC/IoT sector and is not a higher education gamechanger the region needs.

imacman

Another step down the road to the Carlow Technological university of the South East , its so sad to see 50 years of of 3rd level in Waterford been thrown away as WIT bows down to the bullies up the road.By the time the people of Waterford and WIT staff realise that they have been taken over it will be too late.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/third-level-college-with-1-000-students-proposed-for-kilkenny-1.3478353

Harry Palmr

Sleepwalking into irrelevance - in 20/30 years the main hub will be in Kilkenny not Waterford (or Carlow) you watch (and wait!).

Deiseen

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Sleepwalking into irrelevance - in 20/30 years the main hub will be in Kilkenny not Waterford (or Carlow) you watch (and wait!).

How can WIT or Carlow agree to lose 1000 potential students that could otherwise go to them. Makes no sense.

imacman

Deiseen wrote: »

How can WIT or Carlow agree to lose 1000 potential students that could otherwise go to them. Makes no sense.

Carlow will be losing no students , the courses targeted are all provided at a high level in WIT

Areas mentioned
design, crafts, animation, -- no courses in ITCarlow in these areas , WIT has 3
heritage, tourism -- no courses in ITCarlow in these areas , WIT has 4
Agri-food - ITCarlow has one course only developed a few years ago , WIT has multiple courses and a long and established reputation for its Agri and food courses

Make no mistake this is a part of a hard-line campaign by Carlow to take over WIT in this merger with the support the government and HEA. Waterford is getting screwed again and the damage will be done before people really know whats going on

Deiseen

imacman wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

How can WIT or Carlow agree to lose 1000 potential students that could otherwise go to them. Makes no sense.

Carlow will be losing no students , the courses targeted are all provided at a high level in WIT

Areas mentioned
design, crafts, animation, -- no courses in ITCarlow in these areas , WIT has 3
heritage, tourism -- no courses in ITCarlow in these areas , WIT has 4
Agri-food - ITCarlow has one course only developed a few years ago , WIT has multiple courses and a long and established reputation for its Agri and food courses

Make no mistake this is a part of a hard-line campaign by Carlow to take over WIT in this merger with the support the government and HEA. Waterford is getting screwed again and the damage will be done before people really know whats going on

I can see the political motivation, but surely Carlow would want these courses added to their IT and not a "competing" one. Seems silly.

imacman

There is no competing campus here , if you read the document it says

This raises the issue of how such a campus could be initiated and developed. Fortunately, there is already a model available in the region. Given its proven ability and success in Wexford, it is our view that IT Carlow is in a good position to develop a campus in Kilkenny. We reiterate our earlier advice that in deciding on the provision to be made on a Kilkenny campus, regard should be had to niche areas that
reflect Kilkenny’s current and historic economic activities and strengths. This would imply disciplines relating to design/crafts, animation, heritage, tourism and the agri-food industry, notably dairying. Each of these is also capable of meeting another recommendation – that provision on a Kilkenny campus should aim to be a centre of excellence with national and international reach

This is a suggested as an ITCarlow controlled campus under the guise of the TU but providing courses already provided in WIT and not in Carlow. This is all part of a strategy to sideline WIT in the TU process

link to doc
https://www.kilkennycoco.ie/eng/Publications/Press_Releases/From-Charter-to-Framework-The-case-for-Higher-Education-Provision-in-Kilkenny.pdf

azimuth17

Speech by Leo Varadkar at Bausch and Lomb 31st July 2017. Does it mean anything? Over the last ten years some €50 million euro has been provided by the State in funding to Waterford IT.

"Now that we have agreement with the trade unions, the Technological Universities Bill will be back in the Dáil in the autumn underpinning the potential for the creation of a new multi-campus Technological University for the South-East, with its major campus here in Waterford.
It is long overdue and I have asked Minister Mitchell O'Connor to take a personal interest in driving it forward. Once developed it will help to generate more investment and more good jobs and will mean more young people will go on to higher education.
The long-term result is that more graduates and young people will stay here or come here to live.
It must, of course, be a Technological University for real, not just in name. Anything less won't benefit Waterford and the wider South-East region, so it will require investment from central Government and extra effort among the staff to meet the necessary high standards.
I'll be behind you in both of those endeavours."

imacman

azimuth17 wrote: »

Speech by Leo Varadkar at Bausch and Lomb 31st July 2017. Does it mean anything? Over the last ten years some €50 million euro has been provided by the State in funding to Waterford IT.

"Now that we have agreement with the trade unions, the Technological Universities Bill will be back in the Dáil in the autumn underpinning the potential for the creation of a new multi-campus Technological University for the South-East, with its major campus here in Waterford.
It is long overdue and I have asked Minister Mitchell O'Connor to take a personal interest in driving it forward. Once developed it will help to generate more investment and more good jobs and will mean more young people will go on to higher education.
The long-term result is that more graduates and young people will stay here or come here to live.
It must, of course, be a Technological University for real, not just in name. Anything less won't benefit Waterford and the wider South-East region, so it will require investment from central Government and extra effort among the staff to meet the necessary high standards.
I'll be behind you in both of those endeavours."

It doesnt meant anything , its just another load of politician speak with no real hard details playing to the local crowd.

echancrure

Perhaps things could have been different.

Perhaps a long time ago, a whole regional approach would have rallied all energies in the region for a separate new university located in the south east. Instead Waterford RTC, lately WIT, went for a solo run for the past 25 years at least and alienated other forces in the region from Carlow, Kilkenny and Wexford.

So instead of campaigning and asking for the impossible i.e. a separate university for the south east supported by 2 regional ITs, WIT and its leaders skewed their effort towards a selfish campaign.

The result now is that a piecemeal Technological University of the South East will come alive with several campuses (Waterford, Carlow, Wexford Kilkenny) dozens of kilometers apart coordinated with an extra layer of management that will still not offer the full complement of training that young people from the region need. Many will still move to Dublin, Cork and elsewhere for their education and probably never come back.

The future of such an endeavour is precarious. Even DIT could not make their multi campus within Dublin work and have won the battle to centralise their effort in a single campus at an astronomical cost in an area already overwhelmed by students coming from the four corners of the country at a great cost to their families.

Now it is too late, and the initial problem has not been fixed despite the energies expanded and the money wasted.

Perhaps things could have been different in the south east if better, rational, careful, less selfish, thinking had been allowed to flourish.

Deiseen

echancrure wrote: »

Perhaps things could have been different.

Perhaps a long time ago, a whole regional approach would have rallied all energies in the region for a separate new university located in the south east. Instead Waterford RTC, lately WIT, went for a solo run for the past 25 years at least and alienated other forces in the region from Carlow, Kilkenny and Wexford.

So instead of campaigning and asking for the impossible i.e. a separate university for the south east supported by 2 regional ITs, WIT and its leaders skewed their effort towards a selfish campaign.

The result now is that a piecemeal Technological University of the South East will come alive with several campuses (Waterford, Carlow, Wexford Kilkenny) dozens of kilometers apart coordinated with an extra layer of management that will still not offer the full complement of training that young people from the region need. Many will still move to Dublin, Cork and elsewhere for their education and probably never come back.

The future of such an endeavour is precarious. Even DIT could not make their multi campus within Dublin work and have won the battle to centralise their effort in a single campus at an astronomical cost in an area already overwhelmed by students coming from the four corners of the country at a great cost to their families.

Now it is too late, and the initial problem has not been fixed despite the energies expanded and the money wasted.

Perhaps things could have been different in the south east if better, rational, careful, less selfish, thinking had been allowed to flourish.

Don't know how you can blame WIT. Without them, nobody would be talking about a university in the south east. An upgrade seemed the likely route and thats the way they went. Unsuccessfully.

Maybe if the other counties had got behind WIT then it would have worked.

azimuth17

Ehancure from Carlow obviously knows nothing of the Waterford University campaign. which has run, on an doff since 1936. Three separate action groups 1936, 1955 and 1985 were set up to pursue University status fro Waterford. The latest, in 1985 worked to gather regional consensus without success. Huge effort was put into a separate university designation but resistance from established universities was massive and the upgrading of WRTC was seen as the only way forward. At that time Carlow IT was very low level and still, in terms of research and PhD education is way behind WIT. the pressure from Waterford resulted in all RTCs being upgraded to IoT level and broke the barrier for degree provision by IoTs. Talk of selfishness is actually wide of the mark. People in the south east had very little interests in the creation of a university. It's now on everyone's lips because people can see the advantages after many years pushing from Waterford. It is ironic to be criticised for that now.

JupiterKid

In order to develop and grow and prosper, WIT needs to be designated a full university. The lack of a university in the South East has clearly held the region back for decades now. I’m saying this as an academic myself with expertise in urban and regional development. This pathetic bickering, rivalry and childish infighting between Carlow, Kilkenny and Waterford has been hugely damaging for the good of the South East as a whole. Typical immature Irish gombeenery and a total lack of strategic, rational thinking.

Waterford is the urban hub of the South East - that is where the university should be. There can be smaller outreach facilities elsewhere but the main campus needs to be in Waterford.

jmcc

azimuth17 wrote: »

the pressure from Waterford resulted in all RTCs being upgraded to IoT level

Only a few RTCs were to be upgraded to IoTs. Gombeenism from Cork FFkers caused the Labourite minister for education to upgrade all RTCs.

Regards...jmcc

imacman

Limerick Institute of Technology to become a Technological University after 2022
https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/311966/limerick-institute-of-technologyto-become-a-technological-university-after-2022.html

LIT boxing clever here , wait around a few years till LIT AIT and DundalkIT are the only remaining ITs. Once everything has settled down and the next government is in place local tds in those areas will put on the pressure to get those institutes upgraded and and they will all end up as standalone TUs. Exactly the same situation as occurred when WIT got upgraded from an RTC and everyone else had to get upgraded too. Meanwhile WIT will be left in an abusive relationship with Carlow and suffer under this imposed merger

Harry Palmr

So then the first of these academic carbuncles is on the launch pad.

http://www.thejournal.ie/tech-university-dublin-4131550-Jul2018/

Muttley79

5 universities around the dublin region with the news of a technical university in dublin today that’s 313k people per university in dublin.365k people in the southeast and still no university,Carlow and Kilkenny fighting tooth and nail trying to get one over on Waterford.not until both these counties cop on and recognize Waterford as the main driver of the south east region we are going to struggle massively over the other regions

Max Powers

Muttley79 wrote: »

5 universities around the dublin region with the news of a technical university in dublin today that’s 313k people per university in dublin.365k people in the southeast and still no university,Carlow and Kilkenny fighting tooth and nail trying to get one over on Waterford.not until both these counties cop on and recognize Waterford as the main driver of the south east region we are going to struggle massively over the other regions

agree. Note...There is 500+k people in SE, 365 in Waterford,kk, wex.

redlead

Max Powers wrote: »

agree. Note...There is 500+k people in SE, 365 in Waterford,kk, wex.

The only thing to note is that the south east as a region doesn't exist anymore which gives justification for stripping it of all decent services. Waterford is the only county that seems to care about this and Kilkenny and Wexford are too stupid / ignorant to realise that it is to their detriment.

imacman

Muttley79 wrote: »

5 universities around the dublin region with the news of a technical university in dublin today that’s 313k people per university in dublin.365k people in the southeast and still no university,Carlow and Kilkenny fighting tooth and nail trying to get one over on Waterford.not until both these counties cop on and recognize Waterford as the main driver of the south east region we are going to struggle massively over the other regions

WIT has been emasculated and persecuted by the HEA and the government over the last 10 years and has become run down from zero investment . CarlowIT benefited from a demographic surge in population in the Dublin commuter-zone as more and more people moved out into that region during the celtic tiger and boosted their student numbers and income. They are seen as the golden boys for the government and have strong local politicians pushing their case as leaders of the southeast TU project while WIT is seen as a basketcase and Waterford Tds has very little political influence.
I expect ITCarlow president Patrica Mulcathy to be made the president of the new TUSE ( WITs president Willie Donnally will be retiring in a couple of years ) and the TUSE headquarters to be setup in Carlow even though WIT is the bigger organisation.This will be another in a long line of humiliations for Waterford.

Finnbar01

jmcc wrote: »

Only a few RTCs were to be upgraded to IoTs. Gombeenism from Cork FFkers caused the Labourite minister for education to upgrade all RTCs.

Regards...jmcc

I was a student at WRTC when it was upgraded to WIT. Cork people who were students in WRTC organised a bus to Dublin to protest about WRTC upgrade.

invara

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I was a student at WRTC when it was upgraded to WIT. Cork people who were students in WRTC organised a bus to Dublin to protest about WRTC upgrade.

Not sure if it is true or not, but the rumour at the time was that CIT management paid for the buses and organised the SU into a fever.

Muttley79

Prof willie donnelly president of wit hopes to make a submission by September for both Waterford-Carlow to combine,what a complete blow this is for Waterford as a university in the south east,once again Waterford has been pissed on and once again our local politicians have disappeared over another huge issue to Waterford.carlow does not deserve to be anywhere near getting a status like this

Muttley79

https://www.beat102103.com/news/south-east-regions-economic-recovery-at-an-end/
Didn't need a report on something we already know.having no university or airport is a huge burden on Waterford here

Finnbar01

Muttley79 wrote: »

Prof willie donnelly president of wit hopes to make a submission by September for both Waterford-Carlow to combine,what a complete blow this is for Waterford as a university in the south east,once again Waterford has been pissed on and once again our local politicians have disappeared over another huge issue to Waterford.carlow does not deserve to be anywhere near getting a status like this

Why do you think this would be a bad thing? Surely a bigger third level institution would have a better chance of becoming a uni? I really haven't being following this debate, so forgive my ignorance.

914

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Muttley79 wrote: »

Prof willie donnelly president of wit hopes to make a submission by September for both Waterford-Carlow to combine,what a complete blow this is for Waterford as a university in the south east,once again Waterford has been pissed on and once again our local politicians have disappeared over another huge issue to Waterford.carlow does not deserve to be anywhere near getting a status like this

Why do you think this would be a bad thing? Surely a bigger third level institution would have a better chance of becoming a uni? I really haven't being following this debate, so forgive my ignorance.

Excuse my ignorance too. Would this not also have a negitive impact.

At the moment we don't have a uni and are experience a mass exodus of youth who wish to attend a uni.

If WIT and ITC merge to form a tech uni will we not have the same issue as students wishing to attend an IT won't have the option in the South East?

Surely the region would be best served by having a Uni and an IT. If the merger is a succcess we will most likely be the only region in the country without an IT.

I see this whole tech uni a repeat of the upgrade from rtc's to IT's, it seems a bit of a farce. Your neither an IT or a Uni just some hybrid stuck in the middle.

Deiseen

914 wrote: »

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Muttley79 wrote: »

Prof willie donnelly president of wit hopes to make a submission by September for both Waterford-Carlow to combine,what a complete blow this is for Waterford as a university in the south east,once again Waterford has been pissed on and once again our local politicians have disappeared over another huge issue to Waterford.carlow does not deserve to be anywhere near getting a status like this

Why do you think this would be a bad thing? Surely a bigger third level institution would have a better chance of becoming a uni? I really haven't being following this debate, so forgive my ignorance.

Excuse my ignorance too. Would this not also have a negitive impact.

At the moment we don't have a uni and are experience a mass exodus of youth who wish to attend a uni.

If WIT and ITC merge to form a tech uni will we not have the same issue as students wishing to attend an IT won't have the option in the South East?

Surely the region would be best served by having a Uni and an IT. If the merger is a succcess we will most likely be the only region in the country without an IT.

I see this whole tech uni a repeat of the upgrade from rtc's to IT's, it seems a bit of a farce. Your neither an IT or a Uni just some hybrid stuck in the middle.

It is a farce. The only way it won't be, is if they throw another €100million our way.