Waterford University discussion

merlante

jive wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, noted!

For the record I'd welcome a university here but I'm not sure how viable it is right now. I'd have to imagine the positives far outweigh the negatives.

FYI, Goodbody were commissioned by Waterford Chamber of Commerce in 2005 to investigate the impact of having (or not having) a university in the south east:
The Economic Impact of a University of the South-East.
I'd imagine most of the analysis still holds.

As to viability right now. Small steps can be made in the short term whilst we're in the midst of this crisis. A 10 year plan can be put in place to bring WIT to the place it needs to be. In many ways, it's pretty much there. It has the overall scale, for example. In my view, an upgrade would signal the kind of commitment to top tier education in Waterford and the south east that would have immediate effects. Words ultimately have to be backed up by actions, but it's hard to overstate the invigorating effect on the local economy that an upgrade, with a firm plan in place for funding and meeting key benchmarks, would bring. Especially in light of the current situation where IoTs, including Waterford, regardless of their level or what they have achieved, are liable to be merged, closed, or any one of a number of things, depending on ministerial caprice. It's very difficult to plan for the future and to fully "buy into" WIT whilst this uncertainty exists.

fuzzy dunlop

jive wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I'm skeptical that the differences can solely be attributed to the lack of University in Waterford. Perhaps largely, but even then in my mind that seems like a stretch. I think the fact that we are a 90 minute drive away from UCC and about a 110 minute drive away from the likes of UCD, Trinity and DIT makes it hard for me to believe that we actually need a university. It's not like we don't have graduates from these Universities sitting at home on there arse right now with no work. Maybe companies do prefer to set up near a university, like I said I don't know so I'll take your word for it. I'm guessing that changing to uni status costs money? Are the quality of lecturers good enough for uni status? I almost don't want to know anything about this because there are so many aspects that need to be right for a properly functioning university. For a small country I think we have enough universities already.

Think about this a 90 minute drive to UCC and 110 mins to UCD may as well be a four hour commute. No-one is going to do it. When you go to or beyond degree level you nearly have to spend as much time in the college/Uni as your regular lecture timetable. The other issue is that the two hour drive is too far as far as industry goes. The higher value jobs have a tendency to cluster around University towns and cities not 100 miles away. There is plenty of prominent people who have alluded to this or else state it outright.

merlante

Trotter wrote: »

Thats probably correct.. but their location at the moment denies a full region of the country equal access to university level education. Because of their poor dispersal, we need our own one in the South East region.

It remains to be seen whether the number of universities in Ireland is too many or too few. Comparisons with Scotland, Wales, New Zealand, Finland, Sweden, Norway, etc., i.e. countries with small populations, and low population densities, such as ourselves, do not give us a clear picture (although 7/8 seems to be a little on the low side).

The distribution of the universities we have, compared with the demographics of the country, indicates quite strongly that we're one university too many in Dublin/East and one too few in the south east. If this is really a sticking point, and 7 is the magic number, two not totally drastic things could be done:
1. Merge NUIM and DCU. Why not? They have complimentary competencies for the most part.
2. Upgrade WIT to university status. Again, why not? WIT is going to be there, costing the state money whether or not it is upgraded and is allowed to live up to its potential.

To my mind, 3 universities in Dublin/East, 1 in the West, 1 in the Mid-west, 1 in the South and 1 in the South-east would be spot on. You'd have a university in each major city/port/regional capital, each large region, almost optimally distributed across the country, whilst respecting demographics and being in line with health planning and the delivery of most other types of services in the country. That gives you one university for every 640K people, in which university of Limerick gives the worst value for money with only a population of 350-400K in the Mid-West, but overall it's a pretty fair network. Some deal could be done with the UK and the University of Ulster to take care of the north west. That's the best that can be done for that region given the demographics.

fuzzy dunlop

mike65 wrote: »

It could get one more!

On Mondays Morning Ireland someone from Labour was talking about a Tech based university for Waterford and almost in passing mentioned how there might be similar for Cork and Dublin! And so the whole cycle of "something for everyone in the audience" continues. You'd have hoped Labour and FG might have learned something from the RTC to IT inflation debacle which only happened when Cork RTC screamed like a stuck pig.

If this were to happen it would render the whole exercise as cosmetic in, other words a name change for DIT and WIT.Cork IT to stop them throwing their toys out of the pram.

mike65

Exactly my point, I was just on the internet and found this from March 1997 and this from 2008. I bet there will be another Cork IT story any day now.

merlante

mike65 wrote: »

It could get one more!

On Mondays Morning Ireland someone from Labour was talking about a Tech based university for Waterford and almost in passing mentioned how there might be similar for Cork and Dublin! And so the whole cycle of "something for everyone in the audience" continues. You'd have hoped Labour and FG might have learned something from the RTC to IT inflation debacle which only happened when Cork RTC screamed like a stuck pig.

It is indeed a worry. Upgrading Dublin and Cork IoTs would be a poor use of public money considering the existence of universities in those areas already. In particular, the loss of DIT, which is planning to merge with the other Dublin IoTs, from the IoT sector would make the IoT sector a purely provincial sector. This could not be a good thing and would serve to bring down the perception and reputation of the IoT sector, particularly in Dublin.

At least this time around, CIT and DIT are the only two other IoTs that could also be upgraded. WIT/Waterford should fight the regional fight and separate themselves from the other two, for whom prestige for their institutes is the only real gain (since there is no pressing regional need).

Imho, it would be a disgrace if CIT and DIT were to be upgraded, or for WIT to be held back by the fact that, politically, 3 institutes would need to be upgraded instead of 1.

jive

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Think about this a 90 minute drive to UCC and 110 mins to UCD may as well be a four hour commute. No-one is going to do it. When you go to or beyond degree level you nearly have to spend as much time in the college/Uni as your regular lecture timetable. The other issue is that the two hour drive is too far as far as industry goes. The higher value jobs have a tendency to cluster around University towns and cities not 100 miles away. There is plenty of prominent people who have alluded to this or else state it outright.

UCC is about 45 minutes form Dungarvan. I'm not saying to do the commute but I'm saying that we have universities close to us. I'd imagine the main reason Galway were given a university is because there are none in the west. We have 4 universities within 2 hours of us.

Trotter wrote: »

Thats probably correct.. but their location at the moment denies a full region of the country equal access to university level education. Because of their poor dispersal, we need our own one in the South East region.

Why do we need it more so than other regions? We have 4 universities within 2 hours of us. This is what I don't understand. We may have bad unemployment but surely there are other more 'isolated' areas with regards a university?

Bards

jive wrote: »

UCC is about 45 minutes form Dungarvan. I'm not saying to do the commute but I'm saying that we have universities close to us. I'd imagine the main reason Galway were given a university is because there are none in the west. We have 4 universities within 2 hours of us.




Why do we need it more so than other regions? We have 4 universities within 2 hours of us. This is what I don't understand. We may have bad unemployment but surely there are other more 'isolated' areas with regards a university?

why do we need a hospital here? why do we need an IDA business park here? we have access to all these within 2 hours of us.


I guess the answer is that we all move 2 hours away from here so - last one turns off the lights

mike65

jive, you wouldn't stick a university in an isolated spot would you? Education institutes need a population hub which Waterford can just about support.

Scotland has this lot
Aberdeen
Abertay - Dundee
Dundee
Edinburgh
Edinburgh Napier
Glasgow
Glasgow Caledonian
Heriot-Watt
Highlands and Islands
Paisley
Queen Margaret University - Edinburgh
Robert Gordon - Aberdeen
St Andrews
Stirling
Strathclyde
West of Scotland (Ayr, Dumfries, Hamilton and Paisley)

so we are big enough

rayc

jive wrote: »

UCC is about 45 minutes form Dungarvan. I'm not saying to do the commute but I'm saying that we have universities close to us. I'd imagine the main reason Galway were given a university is because there are none in the west. We have 4 universities within 2 hours of us.




Why do we need it more so than other regions? We have 4 universities within 2 hours of us. This is what I don't understand. We may have bad unemployment but surely there are other more 'isolated' areas with regards a university?

Also, just to point out Galway is less than 2 hours from Dublin, and about 1hr15 from Limerick....

jive

Bards wrote: »

why do we need a hospital here? why do we need an IDA business park here? we have access to all these within 2 hours of us.

I guess the answer is that we all move 2 hours away from here so - last one turns off the lights

Yeah point out a necessity for any urban area and compare it to something that's not a necessity, nice comparison.

<insert condescending sign off>. Well done.

mike65 wrote: »

jive, you wouldn't stick a university in an isolated spot would you? Education institutes need a population hub which Waterford can just about support.

so we are big enough

I said isolated with regards to a university.

rayc wrote: »

Also, just to point out Galway is less than 2 hours from Dublin, and about 1hr15 from Limerick....

Roads to Galway/Dublin haven't always been that good if I'm not mistaken? I don't know. I'm saying that on the east we have 3 universities and in the south we have cork. Why do we need one for the south east. Galway caters for the west, limerick for the midlands, Dublin for the east and cork for the south.

I understand why a university would be good but we have enough of them for a small country. Those who want to attend university can do so at a low cost and not everyone has a choice to stay at home to attend university. I'd welcome one but I don't think we need one, at all.

mike65

whispers to jive, get on message

Trotter

jive wrote: »

Why do we need it more so than other regions? We have 4 universities within 2 hours of us. This is what I don't understand. We may have bad unemployment but surely there are other more 'isolated' areas with regards a university?

You think Waterford students commute daily to Cork or Dublin? Very few do. Also, how many students from Waterford who graduate from Dublin or Cork actually return home to work? Id say very few but thats a guess.

The basics are that this is the biggest population centre/ region without equal access to a university. If the education of the local population is a factor in choosing where to set up business, then we're providing the cities with a university with an advantage. Given that those cities all have one, we're being treated as the runt of the litter. I'd like to see the response from the Cork public if the minister for education said they didnt need a university because Limerick and Dublin can be reached in less than 2 hours.

The reality is that its only the Waterford/SE public that will advocate the need for this. The reasons against in my opinion are all related directly or indirectly to the motivation to keep Waterford as a competitor down.

I fully believe Waterford would be transformed as a city, and the South East as a region if we had a decent university and a jet aircraft capable runway.

Knock just announced daily flights to Dusseldorf. Imagine what a daily flight in and out of one of Europes main hubs would do for this economy if we were producing university graduates.

Why would anyone from competing regions want to see progress in Waterford? Its parochial Ireland and proper regionally dispersed capital planning comes second to making sure their own back yard stays ahead. Nobody in Dublin is going to give us university status because of the backlash it would cause to local competitors who call the shots (more TDs). The solution to them would be to give Cork a second university.. and in so doing, maintain the advantage.

A level playing field is not in the best interests of the powers that be.
The solution? We need to scream from the rafters about the inequality and hope they're embarrassed into listening. Im not holding my breath.

rayc

Roads to Galway/Dublin haven't always been that good if I'm not mistaken?
[/QUOTE]

True but as someone else pointed out commuting is not at all realistic for students, one of the main the issues is that they end up moving to Dublin, Cork or wherever. Business set up in those areas knowing there are a glut of (university) qualified people graduating those universities and so the graduates stay. And the cycle continues...

dayshah

Green Hornet wrote: »

I'm went to WIT and regularly visit as a result of some collaborations with industry and it is a good college. However, there have been a few posts stating that it's a superior college to Carlow and most of the other IT's. What's that based upon? Just seems a bit disrespectful to graduates of Carlow etc.

I don't mean any disrespect to Carlow IT. I'm basing it on Sunday Times rankings (I'll try dig them out).

Carlow simply doesn't have the scale WIT has, though I'm sure it has some good lecturers who give good specific courses. But it can't benefit from the scale WIT does (as main IT in the South East).

DIT is generally considered above WIT (and several of the universities). Cork IT is considered decent (but they have UCC down there) for some of the engineering type courses.

WIT is way above Blanchardstown IT, or Letterkenny IT and so on.

Bards

jive wrote: »

Yeah point out a necessity for any urban area and compare it to something that's not a necessity, nice comparison.

<insert condescending sign off>. Well done

But that is my point a university is just as important as a regional hospital, regional Ida park etc.

It's that some people just don't get it

dayshah

I think the distance factor comes to two issues.
1) Can you drive there and save on rent? For this I think a 40min by radius is probably max (and many students don't have daily access to a car), or maybe a bit more by bus

2) Is it easy to get home on the weekend.


So I think Dungarvan is really at the edge of our catchment, a 50/50 situation. But Waterford has the advantage of being a cheap place to rent.


We must make the case of why a Waterford University is good for the country (and not just for us). Maybe we could say that the government could pay lower maintenance to students because the cost of living is lower here, and so save some money.

jive

Bards wrote: »

But that is my point a university is just as important as a regional hospital, regional Ida park etc.

It's that some people just don't get it

How is it? Using your logic then there would be no hospital because there are no doctors in Waterford because there is no university. Create the jobs and the graduates will come, they've nowhere else to go. We already have enough of them unemployed around the country.

merlante

jive wrote: »

How is it? Using your logic then there would be no hospital because there are no doctors in Waterford because there is no university. Create the jobs and the graduates will come, they've nowhere else to go. We already have enough of them unemployed around the country.

Jive, one thing leads to the other. The university is central to the jobs strategy. If you look at jobs before you look at education and decide to do nothing then basically you get nowhere and there are no universities anywhere.

At the moment the south east is experiencing a brain drain to regions/cities with universities and therefore jobs. I'd see this stop, to be honest. Universities might be 2 hours away (optimistic regarding traffic, but anyway) but that has not stopped people leaving the region in their droves. The south east has the highest unemployment rate in the country -- 18.1% versus 14.1% -- and the lowest percentage of the population of any region without a third level qualification. It also has the lowest average salaries of any region. The Goodbody report I cited earlier could go into much greater detail on these and other issues.

It seems to me that in order to give the people of the south east their due, social contract wise, you either create a university by upgrading WIT, or you pay the relocation costs for 460K people to move to regions where they will have the same opportunities. Because, nice and all as this part of the country is, you wouldn't choose it if it meant the lowest salaries and highest unemployment in the country, would you? And what is cheaper anyway, upgrading the WIT or paying the dole for an additional 4% of the workforce?

We can talk until the cows come home about how this or that is 2 hours away and how people can commute to wherever, but the figures say that the south east is suffering badly, and the only reasonable explanation is the lack of a university -- particularly given high tech employers tend to demand it.

jive

merlante wrote: »

We can talk until the cows come home about how this or that is 2 hours away and how people can commute to wherever, but the figures say that the south east is suffering badly, and the only reasonable explanation is the lack of a university -- particularly given high tech employers tend to demand it.

The whole country is doing shít, the south east just doing particularly shít. A university might be a long term help but it is by no means a long term or short term fix. I never mentioned people commuting btw, 2 hours wouldn't really be viable (possible but nobody would bother, 45 mins from Dungarvan is a realistic commute but still a drag all the same). Like I said, I'd support it but it certainly isn't necessary IMO. My knowledge of the subject is limited at best admittedly and I don't have any particular interest in expanding it to any great extent (just came in here to get a general idea). And thus I have nothing further to add and am out!

Max Powers

a full university will not solve all our problems, it would help the region no doubt. What we really need is a level playing field for the south-east with the other regions (south, east and west, mid west). BY level playing field, we need university, fair share of government investment, government jobs and IDA FDI promotion. We have no major government departments or projects here, for eg:
- Dept of education - Athlone
- TG4 - Galway
- Cork - CSO
- Lyric FM - Limerick
- dept of agri and fisheries - Galway
- IDA base - Cork
- Universities - dublin, cork, limerick, galway
etc etc

A Tech Uni will not see a massive influx of FDI or research based jobs/growth unless it has meaningfull support from government and its departments.

jad2007

Just to add my two cents worth.

Was talking yesterday to a retired guy I know that worked in the Dept of Foreign Affiars and he was telling me how that on a visit to India they were accompanied by the heads of the various educational organisations who were there to establish exchange programms and seek investment.

When they went to the meeting the various heads of Unis/Its etc were divided by University non university and went into meet different officials.

The non-university heads met lower ranking officials and as a result did not end up securing any deals.

So basically what I am saying is the name over the door does make a difference and its not just window dressing.

merlante

jad2007 wrote: »

Just to add my two cents worth.

Was talking yesterday to a retired guy I know that worked in the Dept of Foreign Affiars and he was telling me how that on a visit to India they were accompanied by the heads of the various educational organisations who were there to establish exchange programms and seek investment.

When they went to the meeting the various heads of Unis/Its etc were divided by University non university and went into meet different officials.

The non-university heads met lower ranking officials and as a result did not end up securing any deals.

So basically what I am saying is the name over the door does make a difference and its not just window dressing.

This is an excellent example of the small ways in which the 7 universities are supported as Ireland's top tier educational institutes, whilst the IoTs lose out, regardless of teaching or research quality. It makes perfect sense really: anyone who attends a lot of meeting will know that nothing gets sorted with 30 people in a room. You have a better chance with 12 or whatever. Who are you going to send into that room when the numbers are limited? The university heads, obviously. This sort of situation will be replicated hundreds of times throughout the year. The IoTs are literally not at the table.

The media take their cue from the government as well, and the likes of the Irish Times associate teaching and research excellence with the university sector alone. All these little things add up to a political picture that works against WIT -- or DIT, which is often rated above some of our universities in league tables -- regardless of the standard that the college is at.

jad2007

To add a little further to my previous post. The gentleman in Foreign affairs told me that a problem was that in some foreign countries officials simply did not know what a IT was wheras everyone knew what a university was.

as a result Univesity heads get preference= simple

Bards

Is there a Journalism course in WIT, or is it something that is limited to the Universities?

Where do most of the reporters/editors etc. from the established media in Ireland graduate from?

Max Powers

Bards wrote: »

Is there a Journalism course in WIT, or is it something that is limited to the Universities?

Where do most of the reporters/editors etc. from the established media in Ireland graduate from?

This is another reason for the lack of Waterford people in top jobs, directorships and in areas like Journalism/media/Tv. Journalism and a lot of media courses and a lot of the TV people attend University media courses so people from those areas are more likely to be in the media. Thus Waterford has a diminished presence on TV/Media.

The importance of getting local people into top jobs is important, look at 3 mobile, i think a Waterford man is at top of that, next thing they are sponsoring local festivals in the south east and sponsoring GAA and football teams jerseys. I know, this might seem like small fry and it is but it shows importance of getting local people into top jobs. I read some stats recently

60% of UCC graduates work in cork area
50% of UL grads work in Limerick area
30% of WIT grads work in Waterford area.

The opportunities arent there for them.


I think we have all contributed to the conclusion that a University would be good and help boost the South-east economy, that a University is warranted if the government wants us on a level playing field as cork, galway and limerick. Im secptical if a name change to Tech Uni will bring us into the top table like that meeting in India Jad2007 pointed out.

merlante

Max Powers wrote: »

I think we have all contributed to the conclusion that a University would be good and help boost the South-east economy, that a University is warranted if the government wants us on a level playing field as cork, galway and limerick. Im secptical if a name change to Tech Uni will bring us into the top table like that meeting in India Jad2007 pointed out.

Well the name is irrelevant really. One of the world's foremost universities is called Massachusetts Institute of Technology. MIT is not an institute of technology, as we know it, since IoTs are defined under Irish law and are defined specifically in Ireland as something that isn't a university. In the US, it's just a name. So while being named an institute of technology is neither here not there, having the 'status' of an IoT would require a bit of explaining for foreign ears.

Regarding bringing WIT to the 'top table', the real bottom line, though, is not the name or the status, it's whether you are considered by your government, your state and your media as one of the state's top institutes or not. It is true that having WIT/south east institutes made into a technological university, may not achieve this: it could get stuck somewhere between the university and IoT sectors. If this happens the TU would perpetually struggle for credibility.

jmcc

Max Powers wrote: »

Journalism and a lot of media courses and a lot of the TV people attend University media courses so people from those areas are more likely to be in the media. Thus Waterford has a diminished presence on TV/Media.

Many of the people in the media are pleasantly normal types who have attended various PR flackery courses masquerading as journalism or "media studies" courses. They eventually end up in PR.

The Irish media is run on nepotism so you have the same genetic errors propagating in RTE and the Sindo for years. Much of this "media studies" thing is down to the sense of entitlement that even the stupid should have college degrees. Thus you've got universities padded out with degrees for the hard of thinking while technology, science and mathematics get sidelined in favour of new generations of bankers, auctioneers, publicans and assorted low-grade politicians. Degrees in basket weaving, gender studies and Social Science might look good in statistics but Ireland needs to focus on building up its Technology and Science sectors. That requires a complete change in mindset at the upper levels of government and the Civil Service. And if minds can't be changed, then it is necessary to get rid of the people and find people who can do the job properly.

By the way, the new editor of the Irish Times is from Waterford. And there are others from Waterford in the media. Blaming the media for Waterford's woes is wrong.

Regards...jmcc

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

Well the name is irrelevant really. One of the world's foremost universities is called Massachusetts Institute of Technology. MIT is not an institute of technology, as we know it, since IoTs are defined under Irish law and are defined specifically in Ireland as something that isn't a university. In the US, it's just a name. So while being named an institute of technology is neither here not there, having the 'status' of an IoT would require a bit of explaining for foreign ears.

Actually a 'university' is meant to cover the whole 'universe' of subjects (law, arts, science etc), but an IT is meant to focus on technical things. So a 'technical university' is a contradiction in terms, and makes us look silly.

But I agree with the main point. MIT and California IT are among the best 3rd level places on the entire planet, with lots of nobel prize winners working there.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Actually a 'university' is meant to cover the whole 'universe' of subjects (law, arts, science etc), but an IT is meant to focus on technical things. So a 'technical university' is a contradiction in terms, and makes us look silly.

But I agree with the main point. MIT and California IT are among the best 3rd level places on the entire planet, with lots of nobel prize winners working there.

That is true, our IoTs are restricted in what they can teach. It's a lot better for the community and civil society to have graduates from the full range of disciplines rather than just science and engineering, etc.

Having said that, the London School of Economics and Politics Science is an exception to your rule on the full breadth of subjects being available at universities. LSE specialises in certain areas (guess which? ). In Irish law, the restricted scope is a matter of law with IoTs rather than choice.