Waterford University discussion

imacman · 06-01-2019 10:00pm

robtri wrote: »

maybe he believes there are issues in WIT that need public scrutiny

He has gone beyond that and he is vindictive in the way he treats the college and its president putting the boot in on local radio, social media and at the PAC.You don't see the locals reps in Limerick trashing UL and the WIT issues are small potatoes compared to the scandals going on there.

azimuth17 · 06-01-2019 10:31pm

imacman wrote: »

He has gone beyond that and he is vindictive in the way he treats the college and its president putting the boot in on local radio, social media and at the PAC.You don't see the locals reps in Limerick trashing UL and the WIT issues are small potatoes compared to the scandals going on there.

Its very hard to see where he is coming from. Has more than a few supporters in the TUI local branch and presumably playing to that audience. Hard to justify in any case.

invara · 06-01-2019 11:53pm

The PAC has run wild on WIT over the past years ... not just on their latest stuff. There has been a huge number of investigations, all out of proportion and together the found very little to justify the bullying, harassment and hounding of people from office.

In the latest investigation, the HEA was found to have undertaken an investigation into WIT without authority... like the Guards doing an search without a warrant. The head of the HEA left soon after that:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/higher-education-authoritys-review-powers-in-spotlight-876810.html

My personal view is that all of the investigations, taken together are a pattern of bullying by the HEA/Department as they deal with the aftermath of the reneging on the university pledge from FG, and FF's treatment of the 2005 uni application- ie. putting WIT back into its box.

I would like to see one local TD defend WIT, Cork TDs are a praetorian guard protecting UCC, ditto in Limerick. Trinity owns the Seanad.

imacman · 07-01-2019 12:28am

invara wrote: »

The PAC has run wild on WIT over the past years ... not just on their latest stuff. There has been a huge number of investigations, all out of proportion and together the found very little to justify the bullying, harassment and hounding of people from office.

In the latest investigation, the HEA was found to have undertaken an investigation into WIT without authority... like the Guards doing an search without a warrant. The head of the HEA left soon after that:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/higher-education-authoritys-review-powers-in-spotlight-876810.html

My personal view is that all of the investigations, taken together are a pattern of bullying by the HEA/Department as they deal with the aftermath of the reneging on the university pledge from FG, and FF's treatment of the 2005 uni application- ie. putting WIT back into its box.

I would like to see one local TD defend WIT, Cork TDs are a praetorian guard protecting UCC, ditto in Limerick. Trinity owns the Seanad.

Who have we
John Deasy , the ultimate backbencher who will never challenge the party line
Cullinane who has shown he is no friend of WIT and seems to be happy to see it humiliated.
Mary Butler, never going to make any impact
John Halligan , the only one who has any real power but there has been no evidence up to now he wants to fight for his local college

invara · 08-01-2019 12:03am

Mary Mitchell-O'Connor visited IT Carlow again today. She has not been willing to visit WIT and meet staff to try and understand why they are so set against the unfunded merger and university in name only plan for TU. Is that because she knows exactly why..... it is all in the Kelly report that her predecessor senior minister commissioned.

imacman · 08-01-2019 11:04am

invara wrote: »

Mary Mitchell-O'Connor visited IT Carlow again today. She has not been willing to visit WIT and meet staff to try and understand why they are so set against the unfunded merger and university in name only plan for TU. Is that because she knows exactly why..... it is all in the Kelly report that her predecessor senior minister commissioned.

The TU emperor has no clothes , but the government will drive on regardless.I think there is a government agenda to make Carlow the leaders of TUSE with headquarters up there.Hopefully this is energize the waterford public who have great pride in their IT.I think the government have underestimated the backlash in Waterford if they go down that road.

Johnboy1951 · 08-01-2019 12:55pm

imacman wrote: »

The TU emperor has no clothes , but the government will drive on regardless.I think there is a government agenda to make Carlow the leaders of TUSE with headquarters up there.Hopefully this is energize the waterford public who have great pride in their IT.I think the government have underestimated the backlash in Waterford if they go down that road.

Where are the signs of REAL backlash?

Did I miss them? A few negative articles in local papers and some negative local radio programmes are not going to influence government.

It seems to me there is a lot of apathy about the issue.

Max Powers · 08-01-2019 1:22pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Where are the signs of REAL backlash?

Did I miss them? A few negative articles in local papers and some negative local radio programmes are not going to influence government.

It seems to me there is a lot of apathy about the issue.

Have to agree johnny.

imacman · 08-01-2019 1:37pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Where are the signs of REAL backlash?

Did I miss them? A few negative articles in local papers and some negative local radio programmes are not going to influence government.

It seems to me there is a lot of apathy about the issue.

Max Powers wrote: »

Have to agree johnny.

I dont think the Waterford public have any idea of whats going on with the merger as even the staff in WIT are in the dark.But if something very visible happens like the headquarters being awarded to Carlow or WIT courses being moved to Kilkenny I hope the people of Waterford would stand up and protest

robtri · 08-01-2019 8:34pm

imacman wrote: »

He has gone beyond that and he is vindictive in the way he treats the college and its president putting the boot in on local radio, social media and at the PAC.You don't see the locals reps in Limerick trashing UL and the WIT issues are small potatoes compared to the scandals going on there.

so you are saying we should just push the issues at WIT under the carpet and say nothing

Harry Palmr · 08-01-2019 9:28pm

It's a nebulous issue, the buildings and courses exist therefore its inclusion in a new body not seen as a pressing matter. That the Waterford part of the new body could well stagnate isn't a point of debate because the buildings will continue to exist. Something big is needed to engage the public, who's children will be going to WIT and the TU.

imacman · 08-01-2019 11:52pm

robtri wrote: »

so you are saying we should just push the issues at WIT under the carpet and say nothing

No and the issues in WIT have all been fully publicised at the PAC and in the media.What Waterford doesn't need is one of its high profile TDs taking every opportunity at the Pac and in the media to undermine and damage the reputation of his local Institute at this critical time .

The PAC will be the arbiter of the issues in WIT and Culinane shouldn't be making that situation worse by attacking WIT and its president.As I have said much bigger issues have turned up in UL recently and all the Limerick TDs have been unwavering in their support of the university.

invara · 09-01-2019 10:32am

robtri wrote: »

so you are saying we should just push the issues at WIT under the carpet and say nothing

I am going to say the controversial thing here and say there are no real issues at WIT beyond the common or garden complexity of running a 1,000+ employee higher ed. organisation. Where are the controversies from UCD, Trinity, UCC, UL etc.... because they are massive. Look at the huge legal bills from these universities, and the sheer volume of scrapes they get themselves into. They make WIT look like a kindergarten.

Read this....
https://www.waterford-news.ie/2018/10/05/the-road-to-nowhere/

None of the investigations in WIT have had much to do with finding the truth, they were all associated with kicking our ambition back. Those who commissioned the reports often did not have clean hands, they often second-guessed the outcomes of reports... and when the reports substantially found no wrong-doing there was no publicity about that.... just snipping that there must have been something wrong or the report would not have been commissioned.

On a money-in, student out basis WIT is hugely efficient, excellent and ambitious on a pound-for-pound basis. Why does it keep getting visited with political toxicity from Dublin?

azimuth17 · 09-01-2019 1:10pm

And David Cullinane is prepared for his own political reasons and TUI pressure to kick WIT? Why is that?

lassykk · 09-01-2019 1:17pm

azimuth17 wrote: »

And David Cullinane is prepared for his own political reasons and TUI pressure to kick WIT? Why is that?

That's a very interesting question! Be interested to hear the answer to that one myself

Johnboy1951 · 09-01-2019 1:43pm

invara wrote: »

..........

Read this....
https://www.waterford-news.ie/2018/10/05/the-road-to-nowhere/

......

Nowhere have I seen any attempt to explain the reason why there might be such a concerted effort to prevent a University in the South East.
Yes there has been some minor speculation ... but nothing solid enough to explain what has happened for decades.

... or maybe I just missed that explanation .....

I have no idea why this situation existed and continues to exist.

imacman · 09-01-2019 4:15pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Nowhere have I seen any attempt to explain the reason why there might be such a concerted effort to prevent a University in the South East.
Yes there has been some minor speculation ... but nothing solid enough to explain what has happened for decades.

... or maybe I just missed that explanation .....

I have no idea why this situation existed and continues to exist.

The main reason is that the countries universities didn't want any more competition after UL and DCU got upgraded from NIHE's (National Institute for Higher Education). The universities have a lot of political influence and Waterford never had a politician of high enough standing to force it through. We came close in the mid 2000's with Martin Cullen but he moved on before it was finalized.

At the end of the day the main reason WIT isnt a university comes down to politics.So for example if Phil hogan had been a Waterford TD I have no doubt that WIT would now be a standalone TU with a lot more funding than they get at the moment. Waterford has never been lucky enough to have a politician with real power on a national level to stand up to the universities and get it over the line

invara · 09-01-2019 5:03pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Nowhere have I seen any attempt to explain the reason why there might be such a concerted effort to prevent a University in the South East.

In John Walshe's book, he said a university in the SE was the most difficult political issue for Minister for Ed Ruari Quinn.... he said was shocked at the amount of lobbying the existing university presidents did to make sure that there would not be a new university created. They burned the ears of everyone day and night.

Walshe was Quinns advisor, former ed corr for the Indo.

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/280/280480/an-education/9781844883608.html

Johnboy1951 · 09-01-2019 7:18pm

Thanks for the responses.

So the sole reason there is no university in the South East is due to the other Universities objections to it, if I have read correctly.

Have these Universities been called out publicly on this?
Is there proof they are the cause?
(No I have not read Walshe's book)

Why have I not read public statements about this?
Why have not those who support a S.E. university brought this to public attention?

The whole situation is most puzzling.

7upfree · 14-01-2019 8:42pm

For what it's worth:

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fine-gaels-university-pledge/

Harry Palmr · 14-01-2019 8:45pm

Eh? That's from 2008

Though this bit is interesting to read back in 2019

Meanwhile, Independent City Councillor Mary Roche, who has been particularly active in pursuit of university designation, claims there are “two elephants in the room” which are detrimental to the cause and being used “to hide the government’s blushes”.

She identifies them as the 2004 OECD Report into Third Level Education and the ambivalence of Carlow IT to WIT’s application. “These need to be taken out into the light and dealt with”, she stated.

She said the OECD report, which recommended no further transfers from the IT to the university sector, had been completely discredited in that it was completely at odds with every other report on third and fourth level education carried out by the OECD for any other country.

As for Carlow IT, she said its negative stance could only be explained by pettiness and territorial considerations. She added: “Every other Gateway City boasts both a university and an Institute of Technology operating in a complimentary way. This is how it should operate in the south east also”.

7upfree · 14-01-2019 8:46pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Eh? That's from 2008

Well done. An indication of how long it has been going on (even way before that). And people continue to vote for this shower. And represent them.

Harry Palmr · 14-01-2019 8:48pm

Yeah but we already knew that!

University was first floated before WW2

imacman · 23-01-2019 10:57am

Ex president Kieran Byrne lost his case against the college yesterday
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/former-waterford-it-president-loses-case-over-failure-to-reappoint-him-1.3767063
No real winners here but at least WIT can draw a line under this whole matter. Personally I feel sorry for Kieran Byrne , he did go over the top on spending but it was small beer compared to the revelations that have come out of UL and some of the other university's in the last few years.

invara · 23-01-2019 11:48am

imacman wrote: »

Ex president Kieran Byrne lost his case against the college yesterday
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/former-waterford-it-president-loses-case-over-failure-to-reappoint-him-1.3767063
No real winners here but at least WIT can draw a line under this whole matter. Personally I feel sorry for Kieran Byrne , he did go over the top on spending but it was small beer compared to the revelations that have come out of UL and some of the other university's in the last few years.

It was awful news really..... Kieran Byrne got closer to delivering a university that anyone else ever has. Imagine if he had to have pulled it off- what a different place Waterford would be today. Very sorry that he lost on a point of law. He deserves to hold his head up high after his enormous effort and sacrifice for our community.

Johnboy1951 · 23-01-2019 12:36pm

I fail to understand why he thought he had some 'entitlement' to be re-appointed at the end of his contract.
He was in a position to be fully informed of the various functions of the sub committee and board in regard to the appointment to the post.

Regardless anything concerning his performance, why would he feel 'entitled'?

...... or is this just the slant the media have put on it? ......

In his judgment, Mr Justice Allen said it was Prof Byrne’s case he was entitled to be reappointed and that WIT’s governing body was not entitled to do anything other than ratify his appointment.

imacman · 23-01-2019 2:39pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I fail to understand why he thought he had some 'entitlement' to be re-appointed at the end of his contract.
He was in a position to be fully informed of the various functions of the sub committee and board in regard to the appointment to the post.

Regardless anything concerning his performance, why would he feel 'entitled'?

...... or is this just the slant the media have put on it? ......

I dont really think he ever had a case and I wonder about the advice he was given.No mention of how costs were handled , 6 days in the high court isn't cheap.

imacman · 23-01-2019 2:44pm

invara wrote: »

It was awful news really..... Kieran Byrne got closer to delivering a university that anyone else ever has. Imagine if he had to have pulled it off- what a different place Waterford would be today. Very sorry that he lost on a point of law. He deserves to hold his head up high after his enormous effort and sacrifice for our community.

There is a conspiracy theory that WIT was leaned on to not appoint him again as he would have had no truck with the TU concept after fighting for 10 years for a university. The expenses issue was a sideshow and then a manchurian candidate ex president of Carlow IT was appointed as WIT president with the only goal to merge both institutes.He failed after trying to sign a MOU with Carlow on the quite which caused uproar and eventually was moved on by the HEA.

invara · 23-01-2019 4:08pm

imacman wrote: »

There is a conspiracy theory that WIT was leaned on to not appoint him again as he would have had no truck with the TU concept after fighting for 10 years for a university. The expenses issue was a sideshow and then a manchurian candidate ex president of Carlow IT was appointed as WIT president with the only goal to merge both institutes.He failed after trying to sign a MOU with Carlow on the quite which caused uproar and eventually was moved on by the HEA.

Not really a theory... The Minister and head of the HEA and said that they did not want Kieran Byrne reappointed in the Irish Times:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wit-board-refuses-to-extend-term-of-president-1.569768
No board could have appointed him in the face of opposition from on high.

imacman · 24-01-2019 12:06am

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/it-tralee-overstaffed-and-has-significant-money-issues-report-1.3767234
The wheels have started to come off the MTU bid now as well.CIT wont be happy with taking on an huge deficit from Tralee which seems to be an unsustainable institute. Their plan to break even entails increasing students by 20% over the next couple of years , thats impossible with UL and LIT up the road the the school leaver demographics declining in the region.Why should CIT take on that debt and overstaffing with no extra funding promised by the government for the TUs .Is the TU "emperor with no clothes" going to be finally exposed in 2019.

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