Waterford University discussion

invara

hardybuck wrote: »

The EIB thing seems strange - I'd like to know more about the background to that.

It is indeed weird. So the university act and the IoT act both have same provision for a 'borrowing framework' but the dept has refused to implement the IoT act one. So each of the 7 universities have borrowed to fund campus developments (mainly from the EIB) to the tune of around €250m each between 2011-2016, with the same planned to be spent between 2016-2020. Meanwhile nothing has been invested in WIT teaching space since 2005 (T+L building, which was designed in 1998).

Worth reading David Cullinane's submission to the NPF:
http://npf.ie/wp-content/uploads/0561-David-Cullinane-TD.compressed.pdf
which also outlines the reduction in core (current) grant.

imacman

Some coverage of the TU project today ,what it really says is if the government wants TUs it will have to pay for them

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/another-tech-university-project-hit-by-wrangle-over-26m-issue-38294742.html

vriesmays

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/rcsi-set-to-get-university-status-235-years-after-it-started-training-surgeons-1.3954205

friendlyfun

vriesmays wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/rcsi-set-to-get-university-status-235-years-after-it-started-training-surgeons-1.3954205

To be fair its the RSCI, they make a tonne of money and has an international reputation as a centre of excellence among medical students globally.

Something like 8 percent are on SUSI grants there, for WIT the number is more than 50 percent.

Christy Browne

friendlyfun wrote: »

To be fair its the RSCI, they make a tonne of money and has an international reputation as a centre of excellence among medical students globally.

Something like 8 percent are on SUSI grants there, for WIT the number is more than 50 percent.

What do SUSI grants have to do with anything? Forgot rich students = better students

skooterblue2

Christy Browne wrote: »

What do SUSI grants have to do with anything? Forgot rich students = better students

You will find that many of the foreign students in the RSCI coming from overseas are there because they were told to be there. The college gets 6 times the fees the Irish students pay. Makes you wonder why they bother with Irish students?

The WIT students are often more motivated as they dont come from the same affluent backgrounds.

Deiseen

skooterblue2 wrote: »

You will find that many of the foreign students in the RSCI coming from overseas are there because they were told to be there. The college gets 6 times the fees the Irish students pay. Makes you wonder why they bother with Irish students?

The WIT students are often more motivated as they dont come from the same affluent backgrounds.

Proof?

skooterblue2

Deiseen wrote: »

Proof?

Which part?

The 6 times the headage payment? I heard that from a lecturer.

The amount of money needed to attend the RSCI is much much more than attending college in Waterford. That is just commonsense based on the cost of living in Dublin/Waterford.

Wanderer78

skooterblue2 wrote:

You will find that many of the foreign students in the RSCI coming from overseas are there because they were told to be there. The college gets 6 times the fees the Irish students pay. Makes you wonder why they bother with Irish students?

They do indeed pay more, unsure how much more though, I also believe some are heavily subsidised by their own governments.

skooterblue2 wrote:

The WIT students are often more motivated as they dont come from the same affluent backgrounds.

Really?

manor

Wanderer78 wrote: »

They do indeed pay more, unsure how much more though, I also believe some are heavily subsidised by their own governments.



Really?

Our own government subsidies courses also. I have just finished one through springboard, cost 3,300 euro, They pay 90%. Passed exams now, I have the option of doing the masters through springboard. ( I also work full time )

Wanderer78

manor wrote: »

Our own government subsidies courses also. I have just finished one through springboard, cost 3,300 euro, They pay 90%. Passed exams now, I have the option of doing the masters through springboard. ( I also work full time )

this is also very true, education should always be subsidised. best of luck with your endeavours

hardybuck

A non-EU school leaver would pay €55,135 per year to study medicine in RCSI.

An EU student pays €10,157 per year.

An Irish student pays €3,890, unless they're a SUSI qualified applicant in which case they'll pay €890.

imacman

The big question going forward is the TU's in Munster and the South East are not financially viable unless they get funding from the government which they seem to reluctant to provide .I think we get a name only re-brand and a chaotic and dysfunctional relationship between WIT and Carlow which will weaken both institutes and we will look back on this process in years to come as a complete shambles.But a rebrand will be enough of the likes of Ibec and local tds whole have been cheer-leading this project which no real analysis about how it will actually work or how much it will cost.

skooterblue2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Really?

Speaking as a former IT student where there wasnt a farm, a highly unionised trade or family business to fall back on. It was like a Russians going into Stalingrad. NO RETREAT.

imacman

The MTU report is out and it is now obvious that its a non-runner
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/munster-tech-university-deferred-amid-financial-concerns-and-lack-of-clear-vision-and-strategy-938716.html
The governments reaction was embarrassing ,they have put back designation for 6 months and asked the institutions redouble their efforts
.How are ITTralee going to make up their multi million deficit and a decade of over paying staff and declining students in 6 months. The TU process always was a emperor has no clothes proposal with politicians and business telling us they were a good idea but with no analysis or research put into how they will actually work. The money is now starting to talk and the nakedness is starting to appear, a change of government with a cork based Taoiseach will be the death nell for the merger idea and its important that WIT hangs on and doesn't go any further down with the toxic merger with Carlow.

Harry Palmr

Redouble thier errors?:)

Deiseen

imacman wrote: »

The MTU report is out and it is now obvious that its a non-runner
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/munster-tech-university-deferred-amid-financial-concerns-and-lack-of-clear-vision-and-strategy-938716.html
The governments reaction was embarrassing ,they have put back designation for 6 months and asked the institutions redouble their errors .How are ITTralee going to make up their deficit and a decade of over paying staff and declining students in 6 months. The TU process always was a emperor has no clothes proposal with politicians and business telling us they were a good idea but with no analysis or research put into how they will actually work. The money is now starting to talk and the nakedness is starting to appear, a change of government with a cork based Taoiseach will be the death nell for the merger idea and its important that WIT hangs on and doesn't go any further down with the toxic merger with Carlow.

Its pretty unbelievable that we have been talking about the Technological University upgrades for a decade now and we still have no clue what they will actually be.

This is beyond a ****ing joke.

imacman

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Redouble thier errors?:)

Efforts - freudian slip

Harry Palmr

Indeed, most appropriate "typo".

imacman

More in-depth details here
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/munster-technological-university-bid-fails-to-get-green-light-1.3965230

invara

Also... a warning shot over fudging the numbers used to determine the criteria.

imacman

Good piece in the university times today
http://www.universitytimes.ie/2019/07/munster-tech-university-raises-many-questions-answers-are-hard-to-find/

invara

imacman wrote: »

Good piece in the university times today
http://www.universitytimes.ie/2019/07/munster-tech-university-raises-many-questions-answers-are-hard-to-find/

Although no mention of MTU missing the criteria of research students and research-active staff, which suggests it was never going to get through- even with governance and funding being okay.

Also galling for rugby fans to hear MTU described as the 2nd university in Munster.... offensive branding to Waterford and Limerick. Thankfully this mongrel brand appears strangled at birth.

Harry Palmr

Leo Varadkar asked about the university again expressing disappointment with the lack of progress.

I wonder if it's occurred to anyone in the dept that things would progress much quicker if Carlow was detached from this development

imacman

There is a new government coming in 2020 and there is a good chance FG wont be in it .It will be interesting to see what affect a Cork Taoiseacht will have on the whole TU concept.

invara

The three dynamics of a new Government will be the regional constitution of power, the leadership and the education portfolio.

Regional
At the moment the leading party have five TDs in the region (2 KK/CW/2WX and one awol in WD)- none have advocated in any way for the aspiration to have a proper university in the region. In the next Government a lot depends on who has power from the SE- will McGuinness be in a pivotal position and if WD returns 2 FG deputies will one have a call on a Ministry. This is the single most important dynamic - will there be someone from the region in power who stands up for higher education in the SE.

Leadership
Micheál Martin is no friend of Waterford, just like Simon Covney he is Cork 1st. He was the Minister that destroyed the WIT IoT upgrade, but there was a significant balance of investment into WIT (based on Martin Cullen) on his watch- with a fair share of new buildings delivered (library, walton, nursing, T+L) for a brief amount of time. He will presumably set a priority on protecting UCC, and CIT and WIT travelling in lockstep- this bodes poorly for the region's prospects.

Education
Thomás Byrne has no interest in WIT or the SE- but FF policy is better balanced between Universities and IoTs, so I would expect a fairer share of the budget but not the gap closing measures that are needed. At the moment FF (like FG) are a policy vacuum in higher education - no promises have been made, not even straws in the winds. Of course, this could change quickly- I will be picking over the manifestos when they come out.

hardybuck

invara wrote: »

The three dynamics of a new Government will be the regional constitution of power, the leadership and the education portfolio.

Regional
At the moment the leading party have five TDs in the region (2 KK/CW/2WX and one awol in WD)- none have advocated in any way for the aspiration to have a proper university in the region. In the next Government a lot depends on who has power from the SE- will McGuinness be in a pivotal position and if WD returns 2 FG deputies will one have a call on a Ministry. This is the single most important dynamic - will there be someone from the region in power who stands up for higher education in the SE.

Leadership
Micheál Martin is no friend of Waterford, just like Simon Covney he is Cork 1st. He was the Minister that destroyed the WIT IoT upgrade, but there was a significant balance of investment into WIT (based on Martin Cullen) on his watch- with a fair share of new buildings delivered (library, walton, nursing, T+L) for a brief amount of time. He will presumably set a priority on protecting UCC, and CIT and WIT travelling in lockstep- this bodes poorly for the region's prospects.

Education
Thomás Byrne has no interest in WIT or the SE- but FF policy is better balanced between Universities and IoTs, so I would expect a fairer share of the budget but not the gap closing measures that are needed. At the moment FF (like FG) are a policy vacuum in higher education - no promises have been made, not even straws in the winds. Of course, this could change quickly- I will be picking over the manifestos when they come out.

How much would it cost for Waterford IT to be upgraded and where would this money come from?

The sector continually complains about a lack of funding, and our third level institutions have been falling down international league tables for some time.

Much of the development of the sector was made possible by Chuck Feeney's generosity - but his fund has been exhausted now.

Max Powers

imacman wrote: »

There is a new government coming in 2020 and there is a good chance FG wont be in it .It will be interesting to see what affect a Cork Taoiseacht will have on the whole TU concept.

I would say at the moment FG have an excellent chance of being not only in government next election but the biggest party again. The country is booming, maybe not as much as we like here in SE, yes there is problems well publicised, but if you look at Dublin, commuter counties, cork, limerick and others I'm sure they are reasonably happy way things are going, sure we all would prefer if the country did not have well publicised issues, eg HSE, housing, etc.
Best thing for Waterford is to vote in people who will be in government, in the party of government, we suffered are suffering for not electing coffey, last thing we need is Waterford going on a solo run.

hardybuck

Max Powers wrote: »

I would say at the moment FG have an excellent chance of being not only in government next election but the biggest party again. The country is booming, maybe not as much as we like here in SE, yes there is problems well publicised, but if you look at Dublin, commuter counties, cork, limerick and others I'm sure they are reasonably happy way things are going, sure we all would prefer if the country did not have well publicised issues, eg HSE, housing, etc.
Best thing for Waterford is to vote in people who will be in government, in the party of government, we suffered are suffering for not electing coffey, last thing we need is Waterford going on a solo run.

I would agree mostly, and the only significant change would be a FF leading a minority government supported by FG rather than the current arrangement of the other way around.

The economy is booming, but the level of growth is not sustainable, and a hard Brexit could push us into recession.

Even if we avoid a recession we're going to be forced to start reducing our huge mountain of debt. The artificially low interest rates at present have allowed us to refinance etc. for for the last couple of years - but again not a long term sustainable option.

invara

hardybuck wrote: »

How much would it cost for Waterford IT to be upgraded and where would this money come from?

The sector continually complains about a lack of funding, and our third level institutions have been falling down international league tables for some time.

Much of the development of the sector was made possible by Chuck Feeney's generosity - but his fund has been exhausted now.

The cost of delivering a university in the SE is comparable to the cost in Limerick, Cork, Maynooth, Dublin or Cork- indeed we have created four new universities in the country since 1989. Universities when done properly (and where they are needed) expand the economy and increase the tax base- over time they more than pay for themselves (Brian Lucey uses a multiple of 4.3- so for every €1 invested, GDP grows by €4.3). Remember the state started investing €1bn in DIT's Grangegorman in 2011 when we were bust. I think the SE can no longer afford not to have one and that it is leading to our economic malaise.

Irish universities bounce around the league tables- they spend significant money on PR- to relate drops to funding, and rise to talent. It is laughable that the media buy this uncritically.

Chuck's investment in Irish higher education was equivalent to half of one year's government spending (he donated around €1bn, the Government spends around €1.5bn and fees/research/EIB borrowing brings this to €2bn), so over 25 years, Chuck's investment was strategic but it is nothing like getting a fair share of state investment.